Can someone tell me the best way to make the panels for frame and panel doors? I am making craftsman style cabnetry with quarter sawn oak. In other words, no raised panel, just a flat panel to be inserted inside the stiles and rails. I have two thoughts on the methodolgy, both with problems. My first thought is to resaw oak veneer from my planks and then glue the veneer to panels of plywood or some other substrate. The problem is that the panels will then be too thick to fit into the grooves cut into the stiles and rails of the doors. I want the doors to look nice on the inside as well as the outside – so maybe just rabbiting out the back to a depth that will allow the thicker panel, and gluing some trim to the inside of the door to cover the gap between the frame and the panel? But then how would I connect the rails to the stiles, without having cut a tongue and groove into them? Or maybe the answer is to get a router bit that cuts wider grooves? If so, where can I get such a bit?
My second thought is to resaw a thicker piece of oak and just make that the panel. The problem is that it seems an expensive way to go, and I’m worried about warping, in spite of the quarter sawn. Also, I won’t be able to join the thin resawn planks for the wider doors I am making.
Seems like there must be an easier way – this is a common door style! Thanks!
Replies
One common method to fit panels into grooves is to rabbet the four back edges of the panel to bring its thickness at the edges a hair less than that of the groove in the rails/stiles. If you are using plywood panels you don't need to worry about wood movement so you can choose a rabbet width that will give you a very small gap (1/32 or even 1/64) between the panel and the frame on the back side. This way you won't need to apply a molding to hide the gap unless you really want to.
Hope this helps.
But then how do I join the rails to the stiles? Are you saying I should still route tongues and grooves into them, and then just rabbit out the back? Seems like there won't be a very strong joint, as the back of the tongue won't be "sandwiched" by the back groove.
Oh wait - I reread your answer, and I see now that I misunderstood what you were saying. I was thinking you meant to rabbet out the back of the rails and stiles in order to just drop the panel into the back of the frame, kind of like a picture. But you mean to rabbet the back of the panel until it fits into the groove. I think that is the solution! Assuming I rabbet the panel to the width of the groove (I am not sure of that width without measuring), do you see any issues with the panel edges being too thin? Can you tell me what you think the best material may be to use as a substrate for my panels?
I've used both methods for panels. For a large oak fireplace I used 1/4 inch oak (not QS). I glued the pieces together at around 3/8, and planed them down to thickness. To date (several years now) there's been no noticeable warping; though the individual panels weren't that large. It helps if you thickness your stock equally on both sides.
The Shaker method, having a raised panel with the flat side to the outside, is easier to do and less likely to warp because thicker. If you can get two 3/8 panels from your 7/8 stock -- not everyone's resawing is that good -- you can cut a gentle cove down to <1/4 with a router or taper the edge with a saw. If you're worried about excessive play, you can try these: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=58675&cat=1,250,43298
Jim
Iamjoe said:" do you see any issues with the panel edges being too thin?"No I don't see a problem. Standard cope and stick router bits give you a 1/4" wide groove. Whether you make a flat panel or raised panel the edges are always 1/4" thick to fit in the groove. Millions of cabinet doors have been built this way so it is a proven method.Iamjoe also said: "Can you tell me what you think the best material may be to use as a substrate for my panels?"I would use 1/4" MDF because it is the cheapest and it is good enough for this non-structural application.
I faced the same dilemna with my beech cabinet doors--wanted a thin panel fit in a simple groove, quick but aesthetically pleasing. I went the simple route and bought 1/4" thick MDF manufactured with beech veneer on both sides. Not sure if that would be available in QSWO, but it's an easy solution.
Peter
They do make high quality QSWO over mdfs , here is a look at some drawer faces.
regards dusty
Any idea where I can get that? I have used QSWO veneer from Rockler in the past, and it didn't have much variation to it - kind of a repeating pattern. Any idea if your stuff is more natural looking?
I buy the material from a hardwood supply company that sells to cabinet shops and other trades as well as retail to the public as many will .The big box prolly will not have anything close don't know about Rockler . You want a Plain Sliced QS face , the back will often be a Rift Sawn grain , a very even and mostly Vertical grained looking in Rift .
It is a book matched repeating face layup , to keep the grain and color more consistent .
If you want to use solid wood for the door panels but want a flat face , you can make a raised panel and turn the panel detail facing in .
If you want to make solid 1/4" panels I'd glue them up thicker , then surface to final spec taking equal amounts from each side. I don't recommend it because you can loose the grain pattern by resawing , planing and sometimes from sanding .
Veneer / plywood panels are more stable and consistent in quantity and BTW
check at the nearest Stickley showroom , the panels may be quite similar to what I use , they were not solid wood . The pieces I saw were Cherry .
regards dusty
The easiest way is to saw and thickness plane some of the oak to 1/4 inch thick and then glue up the panels to whatever width you need. If you take your time with the glue up, the joint should only need a light scraping with a cabinet scraper to clean it up.
Doing it this way will keep the door weight down and you won't have the potential problem of plywood veneer door panels not being a good match to the door frames. And it will probably be cheaper.
Also, this is Craftsman style no plywood allowed.
John White
Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998-2007
Any suggestions on how to glue up 1/4" thick panels? I hear you on the no plywood thing - I'm sure that Stickley didn't have plywood - but what about warping? And why do you think it will be cheaper - are you saying I should resaw my 7/8" planks, and thereby get two or three panels out of them?
I was thinking about resawing thicker stock. If you are using quarter sawn stock it isn't likely to warp when sawn, but even flatsawn will usually saw well. Typically panels are made from flatsawn wood because stabilty isn't critical in a framed panel and the grain pattern is more attractive. You should be able to easily get two boards out of each piece of 7/8" stock and you will be able to bookmatch the panel.Glue ups of thinner stock isn't difficult, just make sure you have a tight joint when the edges are matched up and go easy on the clamp pressure.John White
Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998-2007
Depending on your needs/desires, you can use 1/2" panels, and work a 1/4" rabbet into the back. That leaves the front recessed and the back flush with the insides of the rails/styles. Of course, the joint will be visible, but I often do this since it adds strength to the panels and the inside isn't particuarly visible.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
I make the stile and rail doors using stub tenons, but 3/4" deep. I hit the same problem you did with limited tools and ended up re-sawing 1" nominal lumber in two on a table saw. I've had no problem gluing the panels together. I've had more difficulty surfacing the glued edges.
What is not said is that in book matching panels you create grain that is running in opposite directions. This can be a problem if you are using planes to bring the panel sides flush. Also because you remove more than 1/8" of material between the panels, the faces aren't perfectly mirrored, and one side matches better than the other. Still on reflection they look better than not book matching.
The other tool I've found useful is a dial caliper. I never thought I'd own one, but if you cut the grooves in the stile and rails, I end up fitting the panels to the groove and the caliper is useful in knowing where a bit has to come off.
Others out there with full shops with planers and sanders might find this a bit backwards. You use the tools you have. I hired a wood shop to resaw a couple of boards on his large bandsaw and he shoped out the job to a door company that had the right equipment. I still haven't used those perfectly dimensioned panel boards, but I expect I will.
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/
Try these guys for the veneer. You can tell them how your QSWO veneer needs to look--heavy fleck, medium fleck, etc.
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