Replies

1. 
   oldhand | Oct 26, 2009 03:05am | #1

   I live in a very rural area and do rough construction as well as shop work, usually about half and half. Last year I was completely busy but failed to notice that I wasn't turning away a lot of jobs. This year has been abysmal, way under half busy. Luckily I don't have debt or I'd be in trouble.

   .
1. 
   oldusty | Oct 26, 2009 05:17am | #2

     The Rogue Valley is also a rural area .

         I have stayed away from rough construction and structural works.

          Basically do interior case works , kitchens , media centers , a piece of furniture now and then .

             thanks for sharing               dusty

1. 
   donbean46 | Oct 26, 2009 05:49am | #3

   I am a finish carpenter and two years ago trimed 3 to 4, half million dollar to three quarter million dollar houses a month. This year I've done one. I've had to reinvent myself to just hang on.  Ive refinished all the pews in a catholic church, put a new roof on another house, did a kitchen remodel, even learned to do granit countertops, did three of those. Ive built some builtins and a few otherthings but mostly just cut way back on the spending, fortunately I dont have credit card debt or car payments.  No more cable tv, no home phone, no going out to dinner twice a week, no vacation, The dirtbikes didnt leave the garage this summer, but the ex still gets her 1600.00 a month, the economy isnt hurting her any.  At least I got the kids, I think I got the better end of the deal.  I just keep telling myself It will get better.I'ts just one board at a time

1. 
   oldusty | Oct 26, 2009 07:01am | #4

      Hi don , greetings fellow Duck ,

             I heard it was slow in Portland somewhat as well .

          Well , sounds like you have already turned yourself loose so to speak , good job of being versatile for sure .

      Those big ones are few and far between down here lately .

        For us on the slow months going into debt to break even is a tough act to follow to do it all over again for a few months in a row .

          Health insurance for 3 $625 a month don't cover anything $5,000 deductible it is almost like a house payment , if things don't get better for us soon we will have little choice but to let it go .A roof over our heads seems most important .

          I still have cable and home phone and Internet and cell phone service as well as a business line . The vacations have been sparse .Maybe once a week to eat out , but not last winter .Tough decisions will need to be addressed for my family and others as well .

         There is Recovery Act interest free loan of up to $35,000  with no fees available to small business's with the interest paid by the SBA any bank can host these loans . Deferred payments for one year , all due in 5 years .

           This is tempting , what is others take ?

          dusty   ,  who has about a week and a halfs work if no one flakes out

            " nice little home on a knoll with a well equipped shop , lovely wife 17 year old son , 3 cats , take over payments "

         

          

2. 
   joinerswork | Oct 26, 2009 04:34pm | #5

   dusty,

   I'm staying busy, but have noticed a couple things here:

   Orders for new work have fallen off, the commissions are for smaller pieces it's been a while since I've had an order for a large case piece, or set of chairs, much less a whole dining room, or bedroom suite.  Now its side tables, boxes, shelves. 

   But, repair work has picked up.  I've noticed this before in other slowdowns.  Some of it is folks deciding to fix up what they have instead of pitching it and getting new, some of it is the high end antique collectors just don't stop collecting, and want their acquisitions spruced up before moving them into the house.

   Still, things haven't slumped here yet as badly as after 9/11 and the tanking of NASDAC in '01.  I was really hurting then, with clients even calling to cancel orders they'd committed to.

   Put more water in the soup, there's better times a'comin.

   Ray   

1. 
   oldusty | Oct 26, 2009 05:11pm | #7

      Ray ,

              Glad to hear you are staying busy . there is work here and there but not like we wish .

           Locally this is much worse then any time in the last 30 years . Some business came here after the logging industry evaporated , high tech or fiber optic factory jobs and a few other non logging but some of them could not weather the storm .

      With housing reeeel slow and unemployment up so high and virtually few real jobs available here , the foreclosures are everywhere to all sorts of folks who are losing their lives savings .

         With interest at like 4.75% this is an amazing time if you think about the 17% interest we had in the early 80s .The banks hadn't failed and our economy had not been sent overseas just yet .You could find a job if you looked .

      Most all our expenses are up our home and land went down 50k on paper last year , talk about watching your investments shrink .

               regards         d

        

3. 
   JeffHeath | Oct 26, 2009 05:05pm | #6

   Dusty

   I wish I had good news from the midwest. It's all doom and gloom here. I haven't had a commission since June. I refuse to work just to keep my suppliers sales going. In Chicagoland, there are too many wood hacks calling themselves cabinetmakers, and they are bidding jobs for less than what my cost would be.

   I have friends and acquaintances in other trades that are all hurting badly. I'd say half of them have gone under, and the rest of us are close. There is simply no work around here. The spec home builders are all gone, and I didn't work for them, anyway, as they were way too cheap, and always hired the low bid guy.

   My other business of 18 years as a mudjacking contractor has gone south, as well. We're down about 75% in sales volume, and I've got a 500 square foot equipment storage shed filled with about $250,000 worth of equipment and tools that has become unsellable, and is depreciating at a rate of about 10% per day, or at least it seems so.

   All of this with 2 kids in college at the same time, and it has not been fun at all. I know I'm not in this boat alone, but I've worked my azz off my entire life to build what I have, and now I'm watching it slowly spin down the drain, and there isn't much I can do about it.

   On the brighter side, the Blackhawks are playing well. LOL! I think I'm going crazy, as my wife thinks so.

   Jeff

1. 
   oldusty | Oct 26, 2009 05:23pm | #8

     Jethro , good to hear from you .

              I was afraid that was the case no one is immune .

           One guy put a kitchen out to bid on Craigs list I heard it was a 7 or 8k kitchen some guy bid it at $2700 dollars a few hundred less then my cost .

         Sorry to hear about the mdjacking so slow as well , but if there is no activity there is no work for us .

      I can relate to the experience of watching our everything become less .

      I hope you are better with your lungs and stuff ,we need to come up with something , a printing press maybe .

         if you are going crazy at least you are going somewhere

               in it with you

         dusty , who drove about 7hrs round trip to deliver a job for a few weeks wages

1. 
   OldGreen | Oct 26, 2009 07:31pm | #9

   Dusty,Work has been a lot harder to come by lately up here in Stumptown. I had my hands full during the summer but since I worked myself out of a job I've come to realize it's a bit grim out there.I've been under bid on the last three or four jobs that I bid on and they have all been smaller projects. I can't ever remember loosing three jobs in a row before. I guess that the bright side is that now I know I am no longer leaving money on the table by having my price to low.I am working with a couple of clients locally on some good projects but they are just now breaking ground and will not be ready for case work and millwork for several months. Still, it helps moral just having these projects on the radar.Hope you can hang on down there until it turns around.OldGreenhttp://www.oldgreenwoodworking.com

1. 
   oldusty | Oct 26, 2009 10:16pm | #11

   OldGreen ,

            Hello up there . you know Oregon even in good times in some areas you would never know it and typically we are behind on most trends or opposite in some cases .

       Marketing ourselves is more important in times like this I hear .

          try and get in with the big designers that draw the kitchens and such

         Depending on how hungry a fellow gets many possibilities exist , some are legal . I'm bidding 25 - 30 % lower then last year , and have only got a few .

    Some  clients smell blood  and work you for a lower price or shop it to death .

     These folks have taken a lot of the fun out of my job .

     I have never entered the price war in 27 years but I have now entered the Twilight Zone of business economics 101 .

           good to hear from you

                           dusty

2. 
   JeffHeath | Oct 26, 2009 10:07pm | #10

   Yeah, it's just time to batten down the hatches, and hang in there best you can. On the brighter side, I've gotten a ton of remodeling work done to my home, and my poker game has improved immensely. I just hope I didn't do all this work for the next guy. The realtor's around here are telling me my house has gone down about $150K from just 4 years ago, so the thought of selling, taking my money and going fishing isn't as appealing as it used to be.Perhaps there's a market for custom made, birdseye maple barf boxes with hand cut dovetails for all the folks who can't make it on prozac alone.We'll just have to keep smiling after all the kicks in the head. Thank you, may I have another?Jeff

1. 
   BG | Oct 27, 2009 01:35pm | #12

   JeffHeath,I'm kinda amazed at the similarities between our current downturn and the downturn during the 70's. In my community a tremendous amount of work went on this summer, the key difference from a few years ago; investments were focused on preservation rather than enhancements. I decided to get the house painted because I'd probably loose $25,000 in market value if I needed to sell. I went through the bidding process and selected a good company. What's interesting is before the painter could start I was cutting the lawn when a guy in a pick up pulled up in front of my house. He said He was working in the area, perhaps I have seem his signs, and would I like a quote on replacing my driveway (we use blacktop out here). What went through my mind was, gee, I'm not sure it need to be replaced, on the other hand do I really want to go through the bidding process again...wasn't my neighbors decision as good as mine would be...If I had a new driveway that could be a benefit to the house also. That guy did about 50-60 houses this summer. He came back after to check the job and we got talking...next thing I knew he was rebuilding my brick porch in the front of the house.Now my son, on the other hand, last may got a quote for building some painted cabinets for the living room in his turn of the century home. The cabinet maker did a nice job preparing three sketched which incorporated the other moldings in the room. My son hesitated at the $12,000 cost ...he just wasn't sure he wanted it that much. He has some orginal built-ins that need extensive repairing(rebuilt). I asked him if he discussed those with the cabinet maker. "Oh No" he would not be interested in those....Anyhow, as my mother used to say...you can stop snowing, I get the drift.

4. 
   9619 | Oct 27, 2009 02:03pm | #13

   Dusty,
   I know you addressed your question to professionals. Well, before I retired, I was a professional. Not a professional woodworker, of course, but you didn't specify, so I am responding.

   What is the state of things in the Washington, DC and Northern Virginia area? From my time at Woodcraft, I would say that business for many boxmakers is up, not down. I know a lot of them, since they are repeat customers, and all of them are willing to talk about it. I haven't heard anyone crying. Most say that business is even or up. A good measure of activity is the sale of Fein Multimasters, and they continue to fly off the shelves. Almost none of these go to hobbyists or homeowners, just professionals.

   My comments are not meant to be a complete review of woodworking businesses in Northern VA, but merely a reflection of what I see and hear from the pros who frequent Woodcraft.

   You said that the builders have their "favorites". I was thinking: how to become a favorite? Living here among the politicians of the nation's capitol, I can suggest a time honored tradition -- kickbacks and bribes. In many cultures, this is a way of life. To learn how to do it well, and talk about it well, just watch the politicians on the evening news. Democrat or Republican, Tory or Whig, it doesn't make any difference.

   I always wonder about alternative ways of making money that are used by woodworkers. For example: what about opening up a school for boxmakers. If you look at the woodworking schools of folks like Marc Adams. Why not do for boxmaking, what Marc has done for normal woodworking? People are flocking to his school and paying a grand a week. I fully believe that there is far more money to be made in teaching woodworking than in doing it.

   There must be hundreds of people to teach "Windsor chair making". Many of them provide meals, and some provide shelter during the weeklong session (and charge for that too). These folks may have the answer.

   If you are into "tools", why not develop some new ideas for tools? Big bucks in this area. Look at Larry W, and Mike W. THeir businesses are doing so well, they cant keep up with demand. I have developed a new woodworking tool that I will sell you for a small price. It is a hat with two directional lights and a fan on it. It can be used to saw to a mark when using a bandsaw or doing dovetails.

   Hope business picks up. Hope this message turns you into a millionaire.
   Mel

   Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   RMillard | Oct 27, 2009 04:36pm | #14

   Mel,

   "I fully believe that there is far more money to be made in teaching woodworking than in doing it."

   That is a very true statement. I'm often reminded of the saying from the gold rush; the guy who panned for gold didn't get rich, but the guy that sold the pans did.

   I may move in that direction some day soon.

   Rob Millardamericanfederalperiod.com

    

    

1. 
   9619 | Oct 27, 2009 06:24pm | #15

   Rob,
   I sincerely hope you don't ever have to turn from furniture making to teaching. They say: Some people can't learn. Some people cant teach. Those that can't do either teach teachers. :-)Have fun.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

5. 
   Eef | Oct 27, 2009 09:36pm | #16

   hey dusty,
   during the summer months i must generate income but from sept to june i teach high school woodworking. just completed a 7000 dollar cabinet job for a video store, am looking to maybe do a kitchen. i have never, in 20 years, seen it this slow. one friend, who pocketed over one hundred grand making furniture last year, is talking about filing bankruptcy.
   eef

1. 
   bones | Oct 28, 2009 12:52am | #17

   I know this was originated for wood jobs, but its not just you guys.  I'm in IT and Mfg a double whammy.  I'm waiting for the axe to fall pretty soon.  Major layoffs.  Mfg is moving to China and support is going to india.  I'm considering making a change and do something different.  The wife works in a hospital and we have moved a couple times with the corporation but its just getting old.  I do beleive the thing will turn around but I'm just wondering how long. I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns

1. 
   oldusty | Oct 28, 2009 03:43am | #19

     bones ,  I feel for you , at least you have 2 incomes going for you still , get ready to pucker up .

         It is as though we have been betrayed by the U.S. and whoever else is responsible for sending our jobs overseas . Back in the early eighties housing was off but at least there were still jobs in this country to go out and get , not now .

        I see a small trickle of activity the last few weeks and others I have spoken to say the same but we are treading water trying to keep our heads above .

        Finally got a little cabinet bid yesterday and am waiting for a call back on another deal we have going , looks like we keep the Wolves away for another month .

                 hang in there bones we are all in this together

                                     dusty,will build , for money

1. 
   bones | Oct 28, 2009 04:26am | #20

   Thanks.  I still beleive its the best game in town! I'll do something always have.  I've been working since I was a kid.  Did yardwork hayfields and walked the roads for pop bottles.  I even cut catnip and dried it and sold it.(my cousin sold it to the smith brothers for use in cough medicine).  

   I'm afraid olddusty, its old plain economics.  I do beleive real mfg is on the way out in the US.  The labor is so cheap abroad, if a business is to compete they just about have to do it.  I had a good friend who's son wanted to go into IT and said it depended on what they wanted to do.  If its just pushing the buttons, I advised against it unless they wanted to stay in a small shop. Never thought I'd say that.  I'm thinking after 9 of my 11 years in corp america dodging layoffs and moving my famiily to survive I may just pick something else.  The wife works days here and there so you are correct I do have something and I'm frugal and have avoided any debt other than the house.  I figure I could make it about a year before it got real bad.   But as my mother always told us as kids (and we were poor), I have my health, my kids are ok, the wife is ok, I have food on the table, Life is good!  It will turn around!   I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns

2. 
   oldusty | Oct 28, 2009 03:33am | #18

   Eef ,

             Yup , it's all over with exceptions in isolated areas , sounds like the boy's near the countries capitol  D.C. W,VA .are doing o.k. still .

    I was born and raised in S cal , left in 1978 , it is a beautiful place to be from.

               here today and gone tomorrow

            regards  dusty

1. 
   9619 | Oct 28, 2009 02:57pm | #22

   Dusty,
   I have been working on developing some names for your woodworking school, if you decide to start one. Maybe others have some good ideas too. How about:- DUI - Dusty's Unbeatable Instruction
   - DOA - Dusty's Outstanding Apprenticeships
   - DWI - Dusty's Woodworking InstituteI know one guy who has taken about 15 courses at Marc Adams's school. Marc gives you a special certificate after you take ten of them. That's nice. Stop to think. If a guy is working and making $1000 a week, and decides to go to woodworking school for a week. What does it cost him?
   - The $1000 he would have been making if he was working.
   - The $1000 tuition
   - Transportation - lets say $500
   - Hotel for a week - Lets say $700
   - Food for the week - Lets say $50 Ha ha ha
   My estimate is that for a guy to take a week's woodworking course can cost upwards of $3000 to $4000, AND LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE DOING THIS. I would bet that Marc's school is not slumping at all. The number of rich old guys who are woodworking wannabees is quite large (at least in the Washington, Northern VA area). Think of all of the guys who have the money to "Buy the Best" all the time. Thousands for a handplane. Big bucks for Festools. I have been roundly criticized (and justifiably so) over the years on Knots for urging people to just get the tools they need to do the things they want to do, and not to fall for the "Buy the Best" push to buy $20,000 worth of hand tools. But I am in the distinct minority. There are a lot of woodworking wannabees out there with LOTSA MONEY, and they are dying to be trained, and they want to learn from a BIG NAME, not just anybody with skills. Who in woodworking has a bigger name than Old Dusty?
   I believe that Dusty's Woodworking Institute could be America's new GOOGLE. Others are bemoaning the fact that people in other countries will work for less money than Americans and so jobs are going abroad. I don't recommending swearing at the darkness. Like Archbishop Sheehan, I recommend lighting a candle. Do something. Start a business that will make millions, and will relieve rich old woodworking wannabees of money that otherwise would have gone to Lie Nielsen or Festtool. Have fun.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   oldusty | Oct 28, 2009 04:47pm | #23

     Gee Mel ,

                Thanks for your vote of confidence . 

       I really wonder just how full all those ww schools are right now , I would imagine as in most all phases of commerce tuitions could be off , does anyone really know whats up with that ?

      I need a good laugh to start my days lately , but I would agree the cost for a week off work and travel and such for a class is pricey. Do that many old guys still have the dispensable cash to blow ?

          This is good  even if we change the D to woodworking but not sure if these names are the best choice .

                   DUI    driving under the influence

                   DOA dead on arrival

                   DWI   driving while intoxicated

         Mel if we could throw in some NASA stuff or cabinetry for the shuttle craft maybe we could collaborate .

             regards            dusty

1. 
   9619 | Oct 28, 2009 05:21pm | #24

   Dusty,
   Glad you enjoyed my attempt at humor.I don't know how well attended the woodworking schools are. I do go the Washington Woodworkers Guild meeting every month, and a lot of the members take these courses, and come and talk about them. One of the courses,which is about to start is by a guy who lives out near Ray. The course is to build a Chippendale Highboy. The course tuition and the cost of materials is $8000. The class is full!!!!!! The guy who heads up woodworking for Williamsburg is Mack Headley. Jeff Headley runs a fine woodworking shop here in VA. He comes to the Washington Woodworkers Guild about once a year, and shows off the classes that he will hold. A number of members have signed up for the upcoming classes. I believe his classes run around $700 and you bringyour own wood for the project, and you pay for room and board locally. Best I can tell, there is no slowdown in the WWG members taking fine woodworking classes. Of course, all I know is what I see. Things are certainly different elsewhere.I saw Jeff Headley at the recent arts and crafts festival in Watertown, VA. He sets up a LARGE display of his furniture, and he is there to get commissions and to get people to sign up for his courses. In the time I was at his display, there was far more talk of courses than commissions. I bemoan this trend of GREAT woodworkers becoming turning to teaching to make a living, but one must eat to live. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

6. 
   jackplane | Oct 28, 2009 07:24am | #21

   I have work, thankfully, but am not nearly as booked as I'd like. Had a couple of cancellations-folks seem to be hoarding cash at the moment. Been doing a lot of small jobs, cabinet repairs, door repairs etc. The guage I use is how often the phone rings, which is kinda quiet lately. But I've got work thru Nov., prolly get some small jobs for Dec.

   Hang in there, and be versatile.

   Expert since 10 am.

1. 
   jimmy | Oct 29, 2009 01:59am | #25

   Why did you leave Natural History? Still busy at the Court.  Alls well I guess.  Smashed a deer going 70 mph on Sunday morning...Cars totaled, but we're alll right.  Thanks to the guy who invented airbags....Jimmy

7. 
   DaveinPa | Oct 31, 2009 05:24pm | #26

   It was good for me up until the Middle of MAy and then I had to re-invent myself. Daysare work really slowed and I started to make cabinets, pantry storage and a few beds. I have a whole house trim job to do right now so I am pretty busy, new baseboards, doors and crown moulding in every room and hallway.
   I'm hoping 2010 bring everyone new business.

8. 
   GRW | Nov 01, 2009 03:13pm | #27

   Dusty,

   Sorry things are slow for you. I hope things turn around soon.

   I'm a simi-pro WWer. I have non WW full time job where I have avoided the ax thus far. My pay has been cut 7% there. I usually do about 600-800 hrs/yr of WW as a side job to try to help cover collage costs for my kids. My side work is down about 80%. No cable, few dinners out, lots of coupons. But my bills are paid, and the pantry is full.

   I currently have some furniture work that will keep me going for the next 5 weeks or so. My kitchen bids are down. I usually get at least 50% of my bids on kitchens. Even though I haven't landed one this year, I have 3 very solid kitchen customers for next 18 months, and more furniture work that seems to be a sure thing. (they already paid for the wood at todays lower prices) There seems to be some increased interest. But a lot of tire kickin' going on.

   Those who can't ...Teach.

   That would be me. I've taken this slower time to set up an after school hand tool program with our local Parks and Rec Department.  Is have a degree as a shop teacher, and always wanted to teach outside the public school system.  I picked up a partner and started a new L3C. (new kind of business available in some states) We start in 2 towns in January, and will expand as we see fit. Other towns already want us. This was something I wanted to do as a pre-retirement job, and am approaching that point in my life where I want to get my feet wet.

   I assume you have a truck and a well equipped shop. I suggest you try to find other ways to keep them busy. Do some hauling. Give that designer a reason to make you their top pick. (usually related to money in the designers pocket) Try to build some mantles for the local fireplace shop.  If you're like me, you might need to learn more about marketing.

   Best of luck in turning things around. I hope we all have a shop full soon.

   GRW