How has this economy effected your woodworking?
GRW
| Posted in General Discussion on
I’d like to hear your thoughts on this..
Me…
My WW is a side job. I’ve seen about a 75% reduction in orders over the past
18 months. With less work, I’m buying fewer/no tools. (wimper) I see many
customers just kicking the tires, and often choosing the cheapest solution
to their needs even though they feel they’re making a poor choice.
I’ve started teaching hand tool after school programs to youth in my area.
It’s a lot of fun, and something I’ve wanted to do for years. Our programs
are growing in quality and demand.
I looking forward to a time when people might be willing to pay for quality again.
When the shop is booked out months in advance, and I can buy some new toys, I mean tools.
GRW
Replies
I'm a hobbiest.. retired early (due partly to economy) about the time (Oct. 2007) the economy took a nose-dive so the economy hasn't really affected me. Really a reverse as for the first two years I was spending 10 hours a day in the shop to crank out 11 carcass pieces. In the last 6 months I have only produced two as I am well on schedule at this point. I start a twin mission bed today but only intend to spend 4-6 hours a day in the shop as there is no dead-line.
As far as purchase of tools.. I simply don't need any as my shop was fully up-graded to where I wanted it over 3 years ago. As for hard-wood there was a slight jump from transportation two years ago but that has equalized and my local source since 1978 has great pricing compared to other competitors local and the majority of those that comment on wood pricing on-line. We don't do movies.. excessive eating out.. etc. so there has always been a budget for wood but... if you have any you aren't using due to not being able to afford tools.... send ASAP to me and I will not let it sit idle. ha..ha... ha..ha..ha..
little effect for me
Like Sarge, I'm retired, so the effect of the economy has been minimal for me. Buying new tools is already pretty much a non-issue when living on a fixed income.
I'm still working full time, so the economy hasn't really affected me. I think twice about buying a tool, but if it's something I need (or really want), I still buy it.
I'm interested to see how the economy has affected others.
Can I blame the economy?
I work part time at LV as well as run my business which is a year-and-a-half old. I don't know if my lack of business is due to the economy or my not being established or actively advertising. I've welcomed the slowness, as it is an opportunity to exercise my creativity and make some work which I can try to get into galleries, etc. Formerly, all my work went straight out the door.
I still buy tools, and the only thing that's stopped me is road construction which makes it really hard to get to the tool store.
Don't let a little thing like a road block stop you
It is new tool purchases we are talking here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ujwfPq41Yc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zPNQAZMVOA&feature=related
I'll say
My story has similarities to all the posts so far but is also different.
For many years my main business was custom home design/build and I also owned and operated a custom cabinet and mill-work shop. We had a great run for more than thirty years and built hundreds of homes. I sold the cabinet shop several years ago but have built a new personal shop for myself on my little hobby ranch.
At first I thought we were not going to participate in the recession then about last July all of our scheduled jobs and clients we were working with simply dried up. They either couldn't sell their existing house or couldn't get the financing of didn't think the value was there anymore or just got scared. After a couple of months without any work, I pulled the plug and laid everybody off cancelled my insurance, phones, website and generally cut my overhead to the bone. Fortunately I didn't get stuck with any inventory. I made a lucky decision to liquidate all my real estate at the top of the market.
I used my down time to build some projects for myself in my newly built shop and toyed with the idea of retiremnet. I love being a carpenter and I've always been a hands-on builder and woodworker so I decided retirement means when I can no longer physically do the work or just don't want to anymore. Not having any employees is like being retired. But I still wanted to work, so I went out in search of work.
I tried Craigslist, newspaper want ads, called people and stopped at job sites that I could find. I was a little slow going at first and very humbling but I landed a few gigs as a carpenter doing mostly cabinets installs and trim work but also a couple of small framing jobs. I've been working with an interior retailer that sells lots of high end cabinet and have been doing a lot of installations for then as well as a string of kitchen remodels. I still do not have any employees but have used various helpers that I just share the work with. I've discovered that there is still a demand for experienced, skilled workers if one is willing to look for it. I've had steady work for several months and I am able to get top dollar as far as carpenter's wages go and my clients seem happy to pay it.
All that being said, I'd rather be working in my shop, building furniture and other custom woodwork for a living. It's been a little slow going developing that side of my business, but I'm determined. I'll get there eventually. I am pushing 60 and am getting a little tire of schlogging off to the job site everyday. The commute to my back yard sounds more appealing. I enjoy the creative, more artistic parts of my craft.
Anyway, that's my story. Hope I didn't bore you.
Bret
Oh, I wouldn't let a little thing like the total upheaval of my business keep me from buying new tools.
Bret
It has been good for me.
Well, I guess I have been lucky over the last year. I have had a customer who bought a really nice older home which needed lots of updating, so I have been building lots of custom cabinets. It has turned into a very nice project. The kitchen has about 65 lineal feet of wall cabinets, that were all painted white, then there is a 10' island which I built from Bubinga, with a granite top.
There was lots of extra carpentry work to prepare this space, since this new kitchen was probably at leas four rooms back when the house was built. The floors had to be torn up and leveled. The longest wall had a 1.5" hump in the middle of the 22' run. It is hard to believe how nice it all turned out when you consider that we had to plan everything around existing windows.
I am now starting to build a new desk for the same customer. It will be sitting in the opposite end of the house, but feels like part of the same setting, since his office / library has 10' x 8' glass french doors. I just bought the most expensive board of my life for the desk top. It is a figured Bubinga plank 2" x 39" x 110". Although the desk won't be that long.
Slow here too
I used to have a few projects lined up at any given time, but have not had a lot of requests for the last few months. I am also retired and have been doing woodworking for pleasure as well as for some extra income, but I don't rely on woodworking to live. The slower business has given me time to do more creative work and not have to rush to meet deadlines. I think that I could find more jobs if I really went out and beat the bushes, but I'm happy with where I am for right now.
Jim
An extremely good documentary, Manufacturing Landscapes, opens with an amazing shot of factory workers in China. The wage is 23 cents an hour. As Cabinetmaker magazine documents, US/Canadashop rates are $35 to $55 an hour.
Recently, I did four things. Detect the crucial difference?
1) Had two Californiaredwoods removed from my back yard. Pricey.
2) Had a Japanese or “rock garden” roughed in in place of the redwoods. Pricey.
3) Had a bench cushion upholstered by a neighbour who mainly makes canopies for boats. Barter.
4) Tried to sell a Greene-and-Greene style hall bench. Nope.
The crucial difference is . . . well, first let me tell you a conversation I had with Ron who does the upholstery.
Ron: So what do you think you will sell that bench for that I did the upholstery for? Gorgeous fabric, a joy to work with. Gorgeous piece.
Jim: I probably put in x but I’ll be happy to get ½ x.
Ron: I started out like you, happy to get whatever work I could. But then I said enough, this is what it costs, take it or leave it—and they took it.
Jim: Can they make these boat covers in China?
Ron: No, they are all pretty much custom made.
Jim: Ah!
They cannot yet cut down redwood trees here from China. They cannot yet landscape my backyard from China. They cannot yet supply all the various boats with covers from China—although it may not be far off. But Chinacan supply all the cheap hall benches you want!
If you can stand the boredom . . . on to the other aspect of this topic: quality.
People in our society regard furniture as disposable. To people with a historical perspective, this now-entrenched attitude is relatively new. In the Middle Ages, furniture in Europewas made to be transported—massive oak break-down trestle tables, re-enforced trunks, etc. Even in Shakespeare’s time (1600) we see the importance of furniture. Modern feminist scholars lament that on his death bed Will amended his will to leave his “second best bed” to his wife, but they miss that furniture was so important that it was a major priority in a will. Today we have Ikea. As my furniture-making instructor said, “The two largest division of Ikea are administration and marketing.” As he also said, “Ikea is perfectly good furniture—until you move it the second time. I had a friend who always argued with me about furniture. He furnished his house with Ikea. Nice. He moved to Calgary. Nice. A year later, he moved back. All his furniture fell apart, and he came to me. I said, We build furniture to last 100 years.” But just as you re-paint your living room—“let’s try a blood-red accent wall for $35 a gallon”—you can refurnish the room for peanuts. Of course, it will crumble—but by then you’ll probably be ready for a new look! And the old crap can just go to a landfill.
Here we really reach a moral crunch point regarding waste. I bought a Kenmoredishwasher because it was the top-rated domestic dishwasher available. After two years and two repairs, I asked the veteran repair guy what was going on. He said, “Nowadays, about 20% of these top-of-the-line dishwashers are lemons.” I asked, “What do you do with this one once you replace it?” “I send it to x and they get our of it whatever metal they can.” “That’s an incredible waste!” “It sure is,” he said. I now have a Bosch dishwasher, nearly twice as expensive, no better at washing dishes, but it is supposed to actually run, work, make use of the incredible natural and human resources that went into it.
Is it better to buy one set of furniture, use it all your life, and pass it on to your children OR to have three sets of furniture, scrap everything, and let your children buy what they want? There is NO argument what most people would answer today. Do you see any signs of a change?
I see it too
Jimbell,
I see the same thing. I understand some in this economy who must buy now (due to need)
having to go the cheap route due to their personal household need. They don't bother me much.
Others are just cheap without need. They are educated about the product they want to buy
and know the real value is in the quality and life of the product. Yet they choose the cheap
product that they know won't last or perform as they wish over time. I loose a lot of customers
to particle board factories, and my prices, materials and workmanship are very good. I credit my
poor sales skills, and a change in the views of customers for my losses.
Great post
Jim,
I am just beginning to realize the wastefulness of our society and do not like it. Everything is cheap, disposable, and replaceable. Some of what is recycleable is recycled, but much goes to the landfill.
On the flip side, we are beginning to become more aware of the environment and the impact we as consumers have on this issue. There is more pressure than ever to buy local, and I've found that more and more people are more interested in supporting the little (local) guy, rather than the international giant.
I recently cleaned out our garage and was getting annoyed at the amount of crap I was throwing out. It was less than a garbage can full, but a lot of what I was throwing out were that were novel for one day, then of no value the next.
I like Mel's new philosophy - don't buy stuff that's on sale - only buy what you need at present, not what you think you might need later on.
marketing hand made
That might be a good addition to one's marketing strategy - point out the difference in carbon footprint between a locally-made product (particularly if done with hand tools), and one that is manufactured in a factory and then transported here by ship, train, then diesel truck.
definately impacting
Well, it is impacting me. My company just went through a re-org, and I made the cut. This was the 3rd in three years. So I thought I had avoided major impact until yesterday. My boss during a conversation that although our company is doing ok, the industry and the others in or market segement are trending down significantly their compensation packages (sounds harmeless almost soothing), and therefore to remain competative, our company was adjusting their pay structure (at my level mid manager) and my total compensation would need to be adjusted down 30%. My disposable income dropped dramatically. I try to stay positive and focus on the fact I have a paycheck (with expanded resonsibility), but its hard. Fortunately I am healthy, my wife is too and both kids so I have more blessings than I probably deserve. I still have some lumber stocks to do some things and I'm in pretty good shape tool wise, but I will definately be backing off. Good to know I don't have to worry about that retiement thing, because their won't be any. LIfe is good!
I know 1st hand
Bones,
My pay hit was 7% to the negative at my regular job. Most are taking on an expanded workload as well.
30% for you is major. Sorry to hear it.
Ouch
A 30% cut hurts. But, as you say, that's better than a 100% cut.
Local government employees (and their unions) are whining about a 3% cut needed to offset budget shortfalls ($60 million for the city of Albuquerque, $600 million-plus for the state) without layoffs.
I am retired - now a hobbiest
GRW,
Like the Sarge, I am retired, and woodworking is my hobby. So I just keep shaping wood.
I do work a half day a week at Woodcraft, and the economy has affected business there, in the direction you'd expect. BUT, interestingly enough, I see a number of contractors coming in who can't keep up with the work. Around Washington, DC we have some EXPENSIVE NEIGHBORHOODS. The guys who are doing well, tend to work those neighborhoods. It reminds me of that old saw about "Why do people rob banks? Because that is where the money is."
Those contractors are remodelling houses, not making fine furniture. Fine furniture is the realm of the rich and people who make it themselves. I think that fine woodworking is rarely hit heavily by economic downturns but it is only the rich and the hobbyists who are interested.
I wonder what, if any, the effect has been on LV and LN. My guess is not much. I think a lot of their customers are rich old geezers - the woodworking equivalent of "gentleman farmers". I would bet that Holtey hasn't been affected at all. Does anyone here know him. If they do, they should write and ask him.
I do see rich old retired hobbyists who are buying Festools like they are going out of style. That stuff seems to have the same effect on people as cocaine. Once they start, they like it. It's not my style. All of their stuff has motors.
I don't think the economy has effected Knots. Still more folks talking about things which are ancillary to woodworking than woodworking issues themselves. That ain't so bad. I have always enjoyed the give and take around here. I mean, we have covered every conceivable woodworking topic at least a hundred times, and we have done sharpening about 15,787 times, if I remember right.
Roc mentioned that this thread is about buying tools. Heck, the economy hasn't slowed me down. I have bought about six tools in the last few months. Of course, the total cost as been about $125, so there weren't any LNs or LVs in there.
They say that there is no such thing as a recession. If it hits you it is a depression. If it doesn't hit you, then nothing happened.
Great thread, GRW.
Have fun.
Mel
This economy is not new
I'm a 65 year old wood butcher that has seen a great shift in the last 40 years since I started my shop. First of all was the new "world market" of the Reagan era where we had "free trade". Free trade IMO has meant that no more tarrifs meant that our wood working had to compete with people in China and India making .25 cents/hour building furniture. The import of wood also got quite expensive when they decided that they wanted to sell us furniture not, their raw materials. Embargo's and trade restrictions have driven the cost of wood so high that importers of furniture can sell a product cheaper that I can buy the wood. Fine woodworking is most attractive to customers with an eye for the arts but, with the demise of the middle class from a varity of reasons like "free trade" to energy cost manulipations (think cost of gasoline) people don't have those spare dollars they used to like to spend. Manufacturing in America has declined over 60% in the last few decades and without selling manufactured goods, we don't create wealth in America. The answer IMO is "fair trade" not free trade where we have currency controls and trade policies that protect our workers as much as other countrys do. I do not advocate a trade war only fair play. What do you all think?
It would be nice if we could force "fair trade" however every side wants to protect itself and sell to foreign entities. In the end it only gets a trade war. I'll charge you a tarrif and you get mad and charge me an excise tax. It seldom does the very thing you intend.
The best example of that was back in the early days of flat panel computer displays. I had a friend who was a small businessman. he had a shop in VA assmbling generic LCD's from parts imported from abroad. He employed around 30 folks and paid them a good salary and provided bennefits and made a decent profit. Well the government vowing to protect american jobs acused the tiwanese (then the port of choice for cheap labor) of dumping parts on the us market and killing jobs! So congress to the rescue! They put a huge tarrif on parts coming in (not assembled displays thats important). This basically destroyed any profit margin the guy had. So guess what the guy did, to stay in business, he moved the operation offshore and brought in the finished displays to sell. So uncle same put 30 people out of work. Kinda ironic. He hated to do it, but he said self preservation took over and he needed to put food on his table. I think manufacturing for the most part will chase the cheaper labor and there is nothing you can do to stop that.
It is an ever changing cycle
j, You sure said a mouth full of real stuff , and are spot on from my one man shop of 30 years eyes.
You understand much more about how trade affects us then I do but it sure sounds right .
Regardless to some extent of trade , this "great recession " that has swallowed up middle class Amerika has deeper ramifications then just trade .The small business for one the so called back bone of this country are about the only segment that NO assistance or bailouts exists for ,we have been hung out to dry .
Whos gonna hire us ? Where we gonna go ? Wheres our bailout ?
To add insult to injury we watch our life savings and our largest investment our homes drop in value as our equity and ability to leverage gets stripped from us we need to find new ways .
People in general just are not buying ,thankfully some projects are forthcoming and keep your fingers crossed that the stock market stays up and the jobs may flow better .
regards , dusty
Free or Fair?
Hi Dusty
As a retiree the recession doesn't affect me too much, especially down here.
Trade has never been free or fair, everyone has an axe to grind, jobs to protect etc. Like always the squeaking wheel always gets the grease. We aren't sqeaking enough.
Back in Oz,near where I live, the local Aboriginal community, in order the give the kids employment, created a small industry producing genuine Aboriginal products ie boomerangs, throwing sticks, didgeredoos etc. for the tourist trade. It was going real well until in its wisdom the Government dropped everything on imports and now they are out competed by shiny imports from you know where. Genuine Australian Aboriginal boomerangs, made in China. complete with shiny poly finish which the tourists seem to think looks better than the real ones finished in red and black ochre. The World Trade Organisation which drives this has a lot to answer for.
These things cut both ways, I remember about three years ago, the US Vice President led a Free Trade delegation to Australia to conclude a free trade agreement. The delegation consisted mostly of Pharmaceutical Lobyists and advisers screaming and demanding that the Australian Government cease and desist giving Australians subsidised medications under the Health scheme. No mention of the subsidies for the US farmers grain though.
Like I said you have to be a squeaking wheel and trade will never be free or fair and every country is the same.
wot
It goes in cycles
Dusty, I think it will turn around but it will take time. We will come back but not because of government but in spite of it!. For me, I'm stuck inbetween. Not old enought to retire (that's gone now anyway), and to old to start (in this field over). I have a double whammy going against me. I'm in IT and manufacturing. Both in the US are on the decline. I was hoping to make it to a so called retirement but just not going to happen. We hope I can make it through 8 more years and get my son in college. Again, it will come back but if we don't put some restraint on govt that recovery time will be a ways off!
the economy is a complicated issue. many here have seen, or dealt with much of the complexity,so they know what it's done to them, or their region. I live in what was before the crash, the 26th fastest growing county in America..Berkely County,WV...look it up. we had orchards and farms that were sold for unGodly amounts of money, to HUGE developers from DC/Pa/NJ..even NC. they sdaw that the Government was moving away from the Beltway, further out, and jumped on it with both feet. it went well..until... now the developers are all gone...and along with it, many bizs that supplied them. I'm a WW'er hobbyist, who will only spend what I need to on that hobby..nothing more.when I remodeled my kitchen a couple months ago, I got a custom cabinet maker who was hurting for work to build my cabinets.I got a good deal on quality cabs, but could have saved a thousand bucks+ had I bought them from a BORG. but I wanted to help my friend out, so I spent a lil extra. whos' to blame for China wages vs American wages is irrelevant. it's here to stay, due to Laws on the books. also, we're indebted to China for more $$ than we want to admit..shamefully so. as for the tools, show me an American tool that I can buy without spending a weeks,or months pay on, and I'm there. I'm a Federal employee who has limited disposable income..I don't make but $40K year, and this areas cost of living has increased with the population,unfortunately.so when I NEED to buy a tool, I buy what I can afford without borrowing form a bank, and that leaves the selection to the now 95% foreign made tools out there. LN planes are great, but not many hobbyists can afford 'em...I know I can't..and WON'T pay it. as for furniture making for profit, the last project I made was a Baby crib for my new Grandson... I had OVER $200 in curly maple alone,not to mention the $150 in hardware kit for the crib.. so figuring time, etc, I had to sell that for , what.. 700 bucks to break even?? how many people with newborns can afford to pay that? none that I know. now I agree that I could have used a cheaper priced wood, but it's what I wanted for him. like I said, the kit was a buck fifty, and I can go to ANY Walmart,etc, and get an entire crib for less than that. it's all a matter of disposable income, and that amount has shrunken GREATLY over the past 5 years to the majority of folks. now, I'll look at sale ads, and even check out Ebay, but if it's not a GREAT deal, my $$ stays in my pocket.
My son is in collage and is getting a minor in economics. He's explained some of
the reasons why many think free trade is desired. (though he might not agree) It helps
me understand (not agree) the situation better. What is understood by all is that many many people
will be hurt in the near future. The near future is measured in decades not weeks.
If any of this is correct, the best USA jobs of the "near" future may be in areas that are not
easy to perform from 3000 miles away. Education, health care, home renovation,
auto repair, and many service jobs to name a few. There's a chance that in a 100 years
the U.S. may be a major manufacturing base to the world. That is IF as some economists
predict that the world wages become more equal as U.S. wages fall and overseas wages rise, and
IF the U.S. still has enough natural resources left from which to manufacture goods.
This could all be BS. I won't live long enough to find out.
In the very short term, my shop orders are down. Folks have been reluctant to part with
their $$ around here. I hope to see that change soon. Unlike many, earnings from my shop aren't
needed to pay for food. It does make my life much earier though. To those who do need this work,
I hope you get plenty, and soon.
Thanks to those who responded to my post. Keep them commin'. I enjoy reading them.
GRW
GRW, in my opinion, college is where the trouble starts... I honestly believe that the current economic condition, is due to those with degrees who were taught the wrong ideals, and used that knowledge to screw over the common man. look at Goldman Sachs... where did they learn to manipulate the system to the degree they did? where did the Lawyers who de-regulated the in dustry get THEIR knowledge from??? Ben Stine had a wonderful segment on last Sundays' "Sunday Morning",when he told of why this happened... everyone should listen and learn from an OLDER, WISER, and HONEST financial advisor. I don't want to bash college, as my Grandmother graduated in 1924, and taught school for 52 years. but they were taught DIFFERENTLY then.. they were held to a higher standard than they are today, both in and out of college. our Gov't leaders are from the same pathetic mindset that caused alot of this countriesd turmoils and difficulties....Gen/Pres. Isenhower warned us about the "big defense manufacturing machine" and he was right... he KNEW what potential laid therein. and who runs thsoe companies?? not farmers, or mechanics,or school teachers...with education comes the potential for self- gain at the expense of the un-educated..and that's not American ideology. Capitolism is a two edged sword, if not monitored,and the task of monitoring lies within the powers of those that have that higher education, and they are failing this country.many won't agree, but I'd MUCH rather see a garbage men or bus drivers, or stay-at-home moms( yes they exsist) who has to make house payments, car payments, etc on a managed budget run this nation, than what the higher educated have done for us. and I think that the higher institutions are to blame for the current mess we're facing....that, and the fact that we've gotten away from what brought us together as a nation to begin with...unity.
ButchE,
I agree that many in power today are making poor choices that effect us. It can clearly seen
where I work, in banking and in a number of other places. I don't think that it is higher education
that is the cause. In almost every case the person in power did go to collage. But I see it as
a requirement of advancment within most companies. The only way to get to the top is to go to collage
and then work your way up the company ladder. (what someone needs to do to be valued is another
thing) Few at the top skipped collage. So I see higher education as a job requirement, not the cause.
I think that power effects judgement, and yes collage may effect ones ability to reach power. But I feel
that power, and how it effects people is to blame.
GRW
Economics in Schools
GRW
One of the biggest problems besetting this country is the Economic Theory being taugh in our schools today where it's ok to shop labor on an international market .
One Radio talking head Thom Hartmann has this to say about our current situation; "People are upset in America because 30 years of Reaganomics has destroyed the American Middle Class, most of the problem being with Romney-style Private Equity firms buying American businesses, saddling them with debt, stripping them down, moving their manufacturing to China, and then selling them off."
I worked for a National Laboratory out of the Energy Department until my retirement and had many opportunities to study manufacturing in America as part of a government study at Lehigh University called the Agility Forum. A part of the documentation is summarized below. If you would like to know more about it you can read about the Agility Forum online.
"Concern about the decline of US manufacturing industry and loss of competitiveness was well reported and documented during the late 1980s (eg Cohen and Zysman 1987, Hayes, Wheelwright and Clark 1988, Dertouzos, Lester and Solow 1989). In 1990 the US Congress decided that some action was required and consequently the Congress instructed the Department of Defense (DoD) to create an inter-agency task force to look at US manufacturing with the objective of making it more competitive. Academics at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, PA, were asked by the DoD to work with industry to develop a vision of what a successful industrial base would look like and to develop a framework and recommendations to make that vision a reality.
Industry personnel worked on this vision and the recommendations, and in the fall of 1991 a two volume report of their conclusions, entitled 21st Century Manufacturing Enterprise Strategy (1991), was published by the Iacocca Institute at Lehigh University. It was during this time that the term "Agile" was coined."
This Agility Forum had partners in Manufacturing Industry, Universities, The Banking Industry, The Commerce Department, Energy Department and Department of Defense. One keynote talk I attended was by an Air Force Colonel who spoke of a countrys manufacturing ability as part of it's National Defense. When our founding fathers spoke of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, I don't think they had in mind a two class system where the vast majority worked at service jobs for the wealthy few.
It is my belief that the current economic model being taught in wrong for America. I just worry about our Children or do we accept being the next "Ex Great Power"? I did run my woodworking as a business for 7 years and made enough money at it to consider quiting my full time job back in the 1980's. Looking back, I'm sure glad I gave up the woodworking as a "business" for a variety of reasons (not being a good designer being one of them). Working until retirement enabled me to work on wood projects that didn't have a deadline or economic penality if I made a mistake. I admire all of those that make a business out of woodworking as very talanted and business savoy people.
Your comment interested me. " Ex great power" Does that not go right along with what our current prez wants? Get with the program. No rich no poor just somewhere in the middle, and the govt deciding what to make where we live. Oh wait a minute where, has that been done before let me think. I know I've seen this somewhere. :)
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled