I have a question for you. What method of measurement do you use for dimensioning your wood? I have been reading a lot of woodworking books lately and they mention measurements of 1/32 here and 1/64th there. The problem is my tapes (that I own or can find), only measure to the 1/16th. To get to fine measurements, I have been cutting over by closest 1/16th and using a small adjustable square that has increments smaller than a 1/16th. I shave off the required amount to get back to the smaller dimensions. Is there a tape out there with finer measurements? My only guess is, that small an increment, accuracy would be a problem for a tape measure. Just curious about how others handle this.
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Replies
Stanley 16 ft. has 1/32 up to 12 in. the rest is in 1/16 -
You should be able to eye ball 1/32 and 1/64 on a 1/16 tape.
if you want to work at this level of try working in metric. A millimeter is roughly 0.04 inches or about 1/32. I have gotten wooden folding metric rulers while in Europe. Many tape measures can be found that have division in both metric and english. The latter are convenient to use as conversion tables for switching one measurement system to another.
It may be heresy but but I do not believe that you need to work at this level of measurement. Except for laying out certain joints or setting machine I have rarely used the 1/32 of 1/64 division on a steel ruler. The most important function is cutting matching pieces the same length so the resulting structure is square, rectangular, or the whatever geometric shape you are attempting. If the resulting table base is 1/8 inch larger are smaller that the plan, it will not affect the appearance of the final product. Pieces that require very close tolerances are best cut to fit the opening rather than trying to accurately measure and cut from a cut list. Use hand cutting dovetails as the paradigm for this technique.
Everyone gets pleasure from this art or trade from different aspects. Some find the accurate measuring and precise cutting to exact specification as the source of pride and satisfaction. Others (I fall into this category) enjoy the creative process. I do not worry matching the plan exactly as long as the final piece is structurally sound and the joints are tight.
Hey Wilson, can you recommend a manufacturer to buy rulers or tapes from in metric form? I've been wanting to convert for a while, but I didn't want to purchase a tape without a second opinion.
I am house bound after back surgery so my wife will not let me venture to my shop (detached garage). I have to reply from memory. I have a 25 foot/6 meter from stanley. I got it years ago in england during a visit but I have now seen the same model advertised in one of the 9 million tool catalogs that I get. The folding 2 meter rulers are made by Fisch and I have only seen during European travels - too bad because they are really nice. I believe I have seen starret steel rulers with both metric and english measurement. If you have access to a scientific supplier, the 1 meter stick are great lay out tools.Being a cut to fit woodworker that rarely use plans, I tend to design in inches because my mind can portion in this measurement system (eg.table height is 30 inches). Once i rough cut to size, I switch to metric. Granted you could use decimal inch to get the same convenience of working in a decimal system but I find metric easier to use. It may be because of all those years working in the metric system as a chemist.
Hultafors Folding Rules
http://www.fine-tools.com
If the piece is long enough that I have to use a tape then I put a mark at the next lowest inch mark. Then I pull out a steel ruler to go from the inch mark and get the remaining portion of the inch that I need. But tolerances as small as you're talking about seem a bit extreme if the piece is long enough to require a tape. But as much as possible, I try to avoid measuring at all. I'm more comfortable clamping pieces in place if possible, then transferring marks from where they need to intersect with other pieces.
I love the smell of sawdust in the morning.
bones,
I'm having trouble thinking of an instance where I'd need to cut a long piece to an even 32d of an inch. Perhaps a case whose interior dimension was an odd no. of 16ths, that you wanted to divide into two drawer openings. In that instance, I'd cut the drawer front slightly oversize, and pare to final length by fitting to the opening, since the two openings will likely be marginally different from one another.
Most of the times that I'm measuring closer than the nearest 16th, I'm fitting to something else (tenon thickness, to a mortise, for instance) or can use a 6" steel rule, which is divided into 64th if you can see the marks. Or I'm using a set of calipers (matching a replacement piece of stock's thickness to the rest of the project).
I agree with the other poster that more often, it's important that certain pieces be the SAME size, than that they be an exact size. Drawer divides, or table tops and leaves, for example. That is, using a stop block, rather than painstakingly measuring, then cutting, each piece. Gotta learn to choose your battles, as it were.
Regards,
Ray
If I was making the design, I would avoid those types of tiny dimensions. I see these in plans, of pieces I am interested in. I wondered if others just modified the plans or stuck to dimensions in the drawing. Just curious what others do?
I work in decimal inches. That is, I use measurements like 17.32 inches. (American machinists have been working in decimal inches for 150 years of so. That's why we have gun calibers like the 22 and the 45. That's .22" and .45".) You can use low-resolution numbers like 17.3", or use more resolution where necessary. You also get all the benefits of using decimals -- like being able to do math on them.
Lee Valley sells decimal-inch measuring tapes. Machinists rules have decimal inches.
Dimensioning boards or other stock isn't always as critical as machine and cutter set ups. There are many choices for measuring devices from 6" shop rules to machinist tools. In some cases you don't even need to be fluent with the markings, you just have to use the same little line. The older I get, the stonger the glasses I need. If you do any machine work or engine building, you need to be able to work with micrometers and other precise instruments. There is a learning curve when you are used to a Stanley Powerlock.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I think that you are thinking about the right things, accurate and consistant measurements are paramount. I try to keep measurements to even 1/8" or 1/16" but that has NEVER been possible. If the OD of the box is 24" and Ply is undersized 1/32 then the piece that fits inside is going to be under 1/16" then the face frame has a 1/16" outside overhang and the frame stock is 1 17/32" that means the center stile is......... you get the idea.
You asked about demensioning wood. For thickness and narrow boards an inexpensive 6" dial caliper is great, they cost around 30$. After that a percision 12" rule ($18) or a percision combo square ($50+) is very good. These are the tools I use 80% of the time for measureing. After that I have a mediocre 24" hookend ruler ($12). Finaly I have a 25' stanely tape measure. Other than the tape measure all the tools above measure to 1/32 or finer accurately. When ever possible try to not measure at all. take compairative measurements, mark the piece in place.
IMHO metric is not all that great. What is 1.0625" plus .875"? Could you easily do it in you head? How about 1 1/16" plus 7/8". That I can do without any thought.
Mike
Mike
With all due respect I think you are getting decimal inches & metric mixed up. Your calculation in metric would be 27mm + 22mm, IMHO even easier than 1 1/16"+7/8".
Don
Don,
Boy do I feel like I dumb a$$. Your right. I guess if you are going to use decimals you should also use metric. Funny I've spouted of my "fractions are better for wwing" several times and never considered that. I was always thinking decimal inches. Going all metric seems like it might be easier. Well I will still stick to my inches as that is how all my machines and tooling reads.
Stay down bro,
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
"That can't be stressed enough." No kidding. Didn't stress it enough myself the other day, had to redo something, LOL
Re: inches and metric. I've been using my digital calipers alot on my miniature pedestals, trying to set up a production system, and they have to be perfectly square to look right when they're done (square being X by X and not X by X+.01). I've found in various situations that the ability to switch between inches and millimeters on the digital calipers is very, very handy. I was having alot of trouble making the design using inches and fractions, so I ended up designing the whole thing in millimeters. If/when I want to know what a mx is in inches, I just push the button on the caliper and it switches over.
Another place I do this is when planing down stock. My little Delta planer has inches and centimeters on the scale. The fractions-of-inches are hard to read. So, I use cm's until I get down to the final pass. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG
Welcome to the light grasshopper :-)
Don
Hey Mike.
just do what is right for you - my fresh faced young apprentices come into the workshop not knowing anything about imperial but soon learn that 'a foot' is just not the lump on the end of their leg, 'about an inch' is 25.4mm & an '8x4' is a sheet of 2.4x1.2m board.
Iwas bought up on imperal & used it into my thirties, & 20 years later still lapse, but I've no doubt metric is easier as we deal only in whole numbers & it therefore (generally) causes fewer mistakes in the work of my staff.
However imperial does have its place; Marilyn Monroe just wouldn't have been the same with stats like 915-600-915:-)
Don
I use a cheap ($20) digital caliper to measure the thickness of the wood as it comes off the planer. For length, I use the Lee Valley "Blind Man's Tape" and use terms (in my head) like "smidge over" or "hair under" if the mx I need isn't dead on a mark. I have a couple of rulers that use smaller increments when needed, but have to put my glasses on to read them, LOL!
Most importantly, once I've cut one piece on the saw, any other pieces to be cut to the same length or width are done using the same fence set-up, or if I had to move the fence, and then go back, I use the stock to set the fence, not a mx tape. Even then, I cut a piece of scrap to make sure I got it set back exactly right.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"Most importantly, once I've cut one piece on the saw, any other pieces to be cut to the same length or width are done using the same fence set-up, or if I had to move the fence, and then go back, I use the stock to set the fence, not a mx tape. Even then, I cut a piece of scrap to make sure I got it set back exactly right."
Right on Forestgirl! That can't be stressed enough.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
As I type this I am in a machine shop preparing to drill holes to a tolerance of 0.004". At home I use everything from a micrometer (check drill and dowel diameters to 0.001"), dial calipers for thickness and hole diameters (drills don't produce a hole the same diameter as the drill itself). I also use a 12" machinist rule (accurate to 0.01"). I have worked with skilled machinists who could measure by eye with a ruler to 0.005". As others have said a good fit is what counts and you can't get that with a tape measure. I can measure a good fit vs a sloppy fit with the dial calipers, but trial and error adjustments will achieve a good fit also.
With all the precision at work, I really prefer to cut it long/fat and trim to fit.
Hey Bones,
Before you get too obsessive about how precise you can measure, take a look at the Goddard table in the Gallery folder. Do you suppose he had a measuring scale closer than 1/16"?
Close fits and tight tolerances don't necessarily require high resolution scales.
Tom
He also didn't have a table saw, jointer or planer. If you are doing it all by hand the fitting process is a WHOLE lot different. When you use a saw you really need the measurement first, then you cut the piece. When you use a hand plane you keep shaving untill it fits.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Before you get too excieted about 1/32 or 1/64 inch accuracy, check all your measuring tools. I doubt they get that close to eachother. I had to change the tape on my table saw because it wasn't linear. Compared to my cabinetmakers rule, it was pretty close at the 24 inch mark and was nearly 1/16 out at the 36 inch mark.
To echo what most people are saying, the fit is usually the critical thing. You know you're good when you can repeat your mistakes, precisely. LOL
I have been playing in my shop for 5 or 6 years and started out wanting to get everything right down to the nittie gritty. I used a starrett rule and tried to work at the 1/32" or better. Then as was mentioned in this reply I took a couple of steel rules and compared them to see just how they measured up against each other. Terrible, three steel rules, four tapes and my table saw tape all were different. Couldn't find any that matched at 4 feet. The lesson I took away from that was to use the same rule you measure with to set up the machinary, set up once and cut all pieces that need to be cut to that length, then move on the the next item on your cutlist.
Learning the hard way...
'A man with one watch knows what time it is, a man with two watches is never quite sure."
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I like the Incra rules/marking gauges. But usually I just use my wood tenon marking gauge. I measure from the gauge stop to the end with a good metal ruler and then knife mark at the end of the gauge.
I think you are getting decimal inches & metric mixed up Geeee I use 27.5 by something!
Edited 1/30/2005 11:54 am ET by Will George
I got a little 6" metal rule at HomeDepot for $2.00- And I also have one of those wooden folding fules that don't stretch- They both measure in inches- When I get good enought to deal in nudges and justahairovers and mm's and decimals I'll probably do it- Between now and then I know how you feel-
Usually, anything less than a millimeter or so is a cut to fit situation - hold a workpiece up to another workpiece, transfer a measurement from a story stick, etc.
I don't often use any thing to measure.. Why should I be confused with all of those tiny little marks when the wood isn't even polite enough to sit still.. I mean between swelling and shrinking from water and drying out no piece of wood will ever stay the same.. use story sticks and who cares.. they will allow you to be far more precise and help prevent dumb accidents..
"I don't often use any thing to measure.. "
The fact that you can do that is amazing. I would like to have the ability to create from the head, but I am just not there yet. I still like to work with plans. When I started this thread, I was curious what others do, and I have seen numerous methods and it had been very eye opening. Thanks to you, and all for responding.
Actually I think it's a weakness rather than any kind of admirable trait, but my life got so much simpler once I started to use story sticks..
If you look most people who need really accurite picture of what they are doing will do that too! Ever look at the counter top guy? Using either cardboard or thin plywood he'll make an eaxct copy of what he's working with rather than try to measure all those angles and pieces..
My favorite story has to do with my own house. I carefully aligned everything and measured three times before I put the walls in place.. most turned out OK but the south wall bowed in an 1 3/4" due to a timber that was stronger than the wall and decided to bow! Now that is a glaring error that simply cannot be fixed, I'm glad that it's ever so slowly going back into line and now three years after that wall was installed it's only 7/8 " bowed. the cool thing is that wood is getting it's way inspite of all the lazers and measuremenyts taken..
Maybe that's why I love working with wood so much, no matter what I achieve I'm constantly reminded that mother nature will find a way!
"...the wood isn't even polite enough to sit still." You hit the nail on the head, Frenchy. What with all the trials and tribulations us WWers have to deal with, on top of it all is Rude Wood! ROFL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hope you lot will forgive me, but I have just bee browsing someones personal collectionof quotes. Like your model, does this fit:
"Asymtotes can be illustrated by the story of the engineer who wooeda reluctant lady mathematician. She suggested that he stood some distance awayand with each step halved the distance between them. As a mathematician sheknew that they would never meet but as an engineer he knew that he would soonget near enough for all practical purposes. How near is 'near enough'?" - from Trevor A. Kletz's "Lessons From Disasters : How organisations have no memory and accidents recur", 1993, ISBN 0 85295 307 0. Page 92.
David
Breaktimer poking my nose in here for a bit of refinement. Nice place you've got here.
The "story pole" tape from Fast-cap is about the nicest tape I've found for finish carpentry once it's tuned up. It would probably work well in other venues of fine wood working too. The ability to write on the blade and the side of the tape is pretty handy.
To be honest, I nearly chunked mine in the trash after trying to use it for rougher stuff. It wasn't up to the tasks where tape measures are usually used. I made the following modifications though and it's been my go too tape for finer stuff ever since.
I replaced the belt clip with one off of a Stanley 16' after the old one snapped in two. If you wear a pouch you might as well just remove the factory clip altogether before it breaks and drops the tape on something you don't want dinged.
I removed and honed the on-board pencil sharpener's blade to the point where it actually works...
and I tweaked the hook to measure dead on with my 36" rule.
Once you overcome those weaknesses it's a pretty sweet tool for a "gentleman" carpenter. <G>
Okay,
After my rather flip suggestion that fit matter more than measurement, I'll admit that I do have a favorite scale.
I use two inexpensive tools from Bridge City Tools in Portland, Or. Anyone familiar with BCT will wonder what, if anything, they sell is inexpensive. The two I use are their 6 inch triangle scale, and their small aluminum triangle square ( I'm sure the product names are incorrect).
The unique feature of both these scales is that they are white on black. The white lines on a black field are much easier to resolve with my 40+ year old eyes.
Tom
I'll try to get the web site for them. I have not heard of this company before. I will try to find them. Thanks for the feedback.
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/ok_default.htmlalso try:http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&cookietest=1&&offerings_id=5430
When is an inch an inch?
I've recently started pondering the question of; "do I cut on the line, before the line or after the line?" So, I found that it really depends on what measuring device you're using and how you make your mark. Using a 1-2-3 reference block I found that the tick marks on a scale can fall on the inch or after the inch. If you don't understand how your tools are setup and how you make your mark then a 1/32 or 1/64 accuracy is not in your cards. What really helps figure this out are reference standards, like a 1-2-3 block and a pair dial calipers.
It's not metal
The eye and finger are pretty good tools for finding those points in between the 1/16" marks and I think most wood projects can easily handle the slop . I always wonder about the editors who print plans with 1/16" even 1/8" measurements on the plans. But then I feel nobody is ever going to notice that one leg is rail is a little bit different than its mate...a bit like worrying that one half of your face isn't quite the same as the other.
As I watched them measure with photo targets, camera and a computer program for making granite counter tops. left me thinking worrying about 1/64" measurements on a steel tape is no longer an issue.
Peter
Measuring precise numerical dimensions, except perhaps for machine set up, shouln't be an issue. Whether a table leg is 28" or 28 1/2" long seldom matters--what does matter is that they are all exactly the same length.
That's why the traditional cabinet makers tools are just gauges or straight edges--marking gauges or squares. You make the first piece to something close to the desired size, then make the rest just like that. It's even easier with modern table saws and planers, etc than with hand planes and saws--just don't change the fence when ripping, use a fixed stop block when cross cutting, etc.
Comparing two pieces directly against each other is much more accurate than measuring them.
How do you measure up.
I'm a professional furniture build and I design alot of the furniture myself and I build it to 1/32". It's not that hard to find the right tapemeasure .
I live near once was the capitol of furniture company's, and once worked in the furnture industry, Their is one Company that is makes parts to 1/1000 " ( Howard Miller clock Co of Zeland MI ) I can't beleave that wood will stay at that measurement very long unless it's in a controlled inviroment.
Good Luck with what ever you build.
Furniture By Douglas, building funiture to become heirlooms.
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