Replies

1. 
   saschafer | Jun 15, 2009 03:05am | #1

   You rive with a froe. (If you're starting with a big log, you will typically need to split it into halves or quarters with wedges and a maul first.)

   I have a Gransfors froe (you can get one from Japan Woodworker or Highland Woodworking). It works but is expensive. I don't know how much of the cost is due to the Gransfors name on it. I recently noticed that Lehman's Hardware (http://www.lehmans.com/) lists a much cheaper froe, but I haven't tried it. I know that some froes are intended for light-duty work only, so that might be why the Lehman's froe is so inexpensive. The Gransfors froe is definitely heavy-duty.

   You will also need a large wooden mallet with which to strike the froe (it has a special name, but I can't remember what it is--"froe club," maybe?). It will get extremely beat up during use, so don't use anything nice--just a chunk of log with a handle, really.

   I've only split oak and ash, so I don't know how well cherry rives. Cherry tends to have some curliness in the grain, which would make it more difficult to get a good split. 1/8" is probably pushing the limit.

   -Steve

    

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 15, 2009 04:30am | #2

   There is a good page on riving at the Greenwoodworking web site.  Figure 18 shows him using the froe to split, and he gives detailed instructions.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Jun 15, 2009 05:03am | #4

   forestgirl,

   Thanks for the link.  Great info.  Will be printing that out and giving it a try at some point.

   Alan

    

1. 
   BG | Jun 15, 2009 11:36pm | #6

   Planesaw,If you get the chance to visit Plymouth Plantation, you can spend a day or more with Peter Follansbee getting one great education for just the price of admission. He's great guy who loves to share his knowledge..and he's stuck there behind his little gated area. Outside you can watch them rive the big boards for the fencing. Peter grabs the good stuff for his shop...at 60 cents a board foot. He builds all the furniture for the plantation.

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Jun 16, 2009 02:56am | #8

   Don't know when I'll get to Plymouth Plantation, but I'll keep it in mind in case I get there some day.

   Alan

2. 
   alanplanesaw | Jun 15, 2009 05:02am | #3

   Steve,

   Thanks.  I have one that is probably similar, if not the same, to the one in Lehmans. 

   Have only used it on a couple of short logs just to see how it works.  Between your info and that from forestgirl, I think I have enough info to keep me busy for a while.

   Thanks,

   Alan

2. 
   Lataxe | Jun 15, 2009 10:05pm | #5

   Alan,

   What the others said and that excellent link from FG.

   Incidentally, dry timber does not rive so easily - best if it' green.  Was that what you're intending to use?

   Also, I think you wil find cherry hard to "steer".  So, perhaps I might emphasise this extract from that site FG linked to:

   "The froe is a remarkable tool. A principal advantage is its ability to assist in controlling the direction of rived splits. Almost all riving is done with equal mass on either side of the splitting edge. However, if a split starts to run to one side it may possibly be redirected by applying pressure to the stock's more massive side. This is accomplished by levering the handle of the froe so that blade's heel presses against the massive side of the split".

   It is possible to rive without a brake but having the log or section wedged in a brake means you have both hands free and don't have the piece being rived skittering about under your knee.

   Good luck!  I think you're going to discover why practice is a highly necessary and unavoidable thang when learning to rive.  Just think of the practice resuts as exotic firewood.   :-)

   Lataxe, who rives by nature.

3. 
   billy5151 | Jun 16, 2009 12:12am | #7

   Planesaw,

   Cherry is not going to rive well at all.(I've tried..and I've riven several thousand bd/ft) Especially down to 1/8" (wow!!) that's preetty thin. You might rive a few pieces down to 1/4" and then "draw" or pull it between two parallel knive blades. down to 1/8". This is the process that basket makers use to get thin strips of oak for weaving baskets.

   And as mention afore it's best to rive it as fresh (green) as possible.

   What size pieces are you starting with? What kind of cherry? Does it have to be cherry?

   Just my two cents. The boards I'm holding are oak, and they are about 3/4" on the thick edge and about 1/4" on the thin side. Anyways, Good luck and have fun>>

   Bill D. 

   Sorry I guess I'm still over my quota for posting pics. Hopefully Mzinga/Taunton will get things worked out. (SIGH!!!)

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Jun 16, 2009 02:58am | #9

   Just wanting to try making some oval boxes.  My understanding is that the Shaker rived cherry so I thought I would try it.

   Didn't see any photos.

   Whether cherry rives readily or not, I'll try some various woods.

   Thanks,

   Alan

1. 
   saschafer | Jun 16, 2009 03:00am | #10

   If you're just talking about narrow strips, you could probably do it with a knife. You'd definitely want to use freshly cut wood, though.-Steve

4. 
   Lataxe | Jun 16, 2009 04:55pm | #11

   Alan,

   Steve & Billy mention some salient points.  Here are a few photos to illustrate riving.

   Here is an ex-ladywife starting to rive a log freehand.  That lumpen "mallet" is hereabouts known as a knocker.  It's mde from a bit of hard, knotty bough with a handle carved at one end using a bow saw then an axe.

   View Image

   As you can see, the process is rather awkward as one really needs a third hand.  A brake provides the third hand and allows more control, especialy when the rive has to be steered to keep the required thickness of the riven parts.  One flips the riven log or part-log over to apply froe pressure upwards agin' the part threatening to become thicker than it's counterpart.

   View Image

   Short, thick stuff is more easily riven freehand, as when chopping up a short section of a thick log, which is maybe where you will be starting out in getting parts for your thangs......?  This chap is here froeing off a slab for a stool seat.

   View Image

   Notice that geet big knocker to get the froe (the lataxe, as it's called around here) into that log-bit.  Whoppppp!

   Smaller parts that are short can also be rived freehand but a pedestal helps to keep the riven parts at a good working height.  If thin bits are required, they come off best when each part is riven into to equal parts.  However, thin bits can be taken off thick bits - but a lot more steering of the split is needed via froe-technique.

   View Image

   He makes it look easy, dunee?  :-)

   When the parts required are really thin the splitting tool and action may need to change.  This is where the knife might be used to start the rive then one's hands to steer the subsequent splitting.  Here is a basket (swill) maker doing just that, as Billy mentions.

   View Image

   View Image

   Now, that thin part (oak) is relatively narrow in width but also soft and compliant, as it's just come out of a hot water boiler.  I think you would struggle to do this with even cold green wood, let alone drier stuff.  And cherry is unlikely to bend as nicely as does that oak.

   ****

   However, if you rive a short log in to pie-slices, splitting each section into two equal parts as you go (2 parts, 4, 8 etc.) then you end up with wedges that may be very thin at the pointy (pith) side and around 1/4 - 3/8" thick at the other (bark) side.  If you go for wedges a bit thicker than your required parts, you can use a drawknife and spokeshave to thin the thick (bark) side to the required 1/8" and axe-off the skinny (pith) side.

   Voila! several riven 1/8" thick parts.

   I do manage to make 1/4" thick chair-slat parts like this, from green oak or ash.  But cherry.... to 1/8" ....... Hmmmm.

   Lataxe

    

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/16/2009 9:59 am ET by Lataxe

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Jun 17, 2009 04:32am | #13

   Lataxe my man,

   Great info.  Fantastic photos.  Might you be seen in one or two of them?  Or, are you hiding behind the camera?

   Thanks for the info.  In concert with the previous info, I have much to ponder and experiment with.

   Alan

5. 
   marking | Jun 17, 2009 03:59am | #12

   proly the most useful thing about "rive" and "froe" will be experienced during a game of scrabble.
   sorry - couldn't help it

   peace
   mark

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Jun 17, 2009 04:33am | #14

   Mark,

   Hopefully that won't be the best use of those words for me, BUT, do you know how to play "fast scrabble?"

   Alan

1. 
   marking | Jun 18, 2009 03:20am | #15

   fast scrabble??mark

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Jun 18, 2009 04:09am | #16

   Yes.  Our family, parents, siblings and their families, etc., etc. have been playing it for 25 plus years.

   No board.  Just the letter tiles.  Generally we play four people.  All tiles face down in the center of the table.  Everyone draws 7, still face down.  Then someone designated says Go.  Everyone turns their tiles over and starts forming words (just like you would on the scrabble board) in front of themselves. 

   First one to use all 7 of their letters says Draw.  EVERYONE has to draw one.  (However, if all are agreed that no one is able to use all 7 of their letters to form words, everyone draws one more.  If no one is still able to form words, you draw again.  That continues until someone uses all their letters to form words, then that person says Draw.)

   This continues until all letters have been drawn from the pile in the center and one person has used all their letters to form words (across and down, just like on the scrabble board) and they say OUT, or Done!

   Then everyone totals their points (just like scrabble).  Then you subtract the total of the tiles you were not able to use.    We generally play to 500.

   At any point in the game you can completely re-arrange all your tiles to form better words.  You may have realized you have created something when you started that is making it difficult for you to work off of -- so you re-arrange to something better.

   Make sense?

   The neat thing, is hyperactive kids love it.  It moves fast.  Very fast.  Kids learn words.  The real scrabble games puts kids to sleep.  Well, actually it doesn't, because they won't play it when they realize how slow it is.  Fast scrabble, as we have called it, is something we now play with our grandkids and my parents.

   Let me know if you have questions.

   Alan

1. 
   marking | Jun 18, 2009 03:12pm | #18

   Alan,Fast scrabble sounds fun. We'll have to try it at our house.Back to the topic at hand: a friend of mine made a froe from hardened bucket edge and a very short piece of steel pipe. (Our mutual friend is a metal fabricator). A nice turned handle finished it off.Rive On!!peace
   mark

2. 
   Daninvan | Jun 19, 2009 02:56am | #19

   Hey great thread! I have a froe also, I have used it with oak and western red cedar. The cedar is really easy, the oak takes a bit of work to get started, then almost falls apart.The whole froeing operation is way more pleasant than the chainsaw milling operation. I have a question though. I have not measured my froe but would guess that it is about 12" long. A lot of the cedar around here is quite a bit bigger than that, any way to use a froe to split a log wider than the froe?Dan

3. 
   Lataxe | Jun 19, 2009 12:43pm | #20

   Dan,

   A larger diameter log is better split with an axe followed by wedges.  The axe is used either to make a starting split in one end which is then prised open with hammered-in wedges; or the axe is used to make a starting split down one edge of the log, which is then prised open with the wedges.  The former method works best with short, thick logs and the latter with longer logs.

   A froe would need an immense force to get the whole of it's length to even enter the end of a large diameter log.  Even if you got the froe in, it's doubtful if you could apply enough pressure, with such a large log, using the froe handle to open a split.

   There are special splitting axes or mauls, having a much thicker head and a wider taper from edge to poll.  The axe is swung into the line where the split is wanted and then its poll is hammered in with a heavy mallet.  These splitting axes have a metal sheath around the handle at the head-end, to protect the handle from misdirected mallet blows.

   It helps to use two such splitting axes at the same time; or one just to start the split, with a couple of wedges then used to expand/lengthen the split. I can tell you from experience that it's very important to get the intended line-of-split well marked out as it's easy for the split to go awry so the log becomes two uneven and skew-sided parts.

   This site shows a range of such tools:

   http://www.gransfors.com/htm_eng/index.html

   There is a also a fancy wedge called "a grenade" or something similar.  This is basically a twisted wedge, so as one drives it into the split in the log, the twist of the wedge amplifies the prise-open action.  The "grenade" name comes from the sudden split-with-a-bang that the log makes as the split suddenly opens to relieve the tearing pressure within the log.

   By its nature, this tool is rather violent and therefore not advised if the split needs to be controlled.  The grenade is perhaps best for making chunks of firewood, where the size and shape of the split-bits is not so much an issue.  Splitting to make parts for chairs, gates and so forth needs more control, so that the parts are evenly thick and of the size intended.

   Lataxe, who would be a slim and elegant wedge rather than a grenade-thang.

4. 
   Daninvan | Jun 23, 2009 08:29am | #21

   Thanks Lataxe,I have found with the old growth red cedar (which is a very soft wood) that trying to split it with axes and wedges from the end it will very easily split perpendicularly off the end of the axe. So for example if I am trying to split a 24" wide log, I drive my 4" axe head to start the split, and an unwanted split will appear at the 4" mark, and it will run orthogonal to the direction of the axe head. I also find that it gets messy fast, trying to split something 24" wide using a bunch of things that are only 4" wide. Maybe I should try more even splitting, not driving the axe in so far before I move on to the adjacent axe/wedge.I also have a splitting axe that exhibits the same behaviour, only worse.I agree with something like oak the force required would be way too much, but my sense is that WRC could still be split with a longer froe.Dan

5. 
   Lataxe | Jun 23, 2009 09:46pm | #22

   Dan,

   It's true that cedar is quite brittle and light, so you may well be right that a froe could deal with the rascal in-the-log.  We don't have too much WRC growing around Lancashire & Cumbria so I'm afraid I lack the experience to advise.  :-)

   Mind, there are some large exotics, including Douglas fir and Sequoia, growing in the parkland of various large estates.  I have often wondered what they do with those that need felling or are blown over by the odd storm.

   Lataxe

6. 
   oldfred | Jun 18, 2009 05:32am | #17

   Alan,

   Peavy Manufacturing, in East Eddington, Maine still makes shingle froes.  

   http://peaveymfg.com/shinglefro.htm

   If you can't get one from them, a local retailer of their products is Lester Kenway, http://www.trailservices.com     He'll ship one to you.

   I bought one a couple years ago.   Great tool!  Peavy Company is famous for it's logging tools, The "peavy" in particular.

   oldfred