I’ve used a couple of Makita routers for many years, and I buy only quality bits. I have a router table, but my work habits usually tend toward hand held plunge operations. I never use big panel raising bits and such and pay attention to speed settings for given bits. In short, I like my routers and use them a good bit.
I’ve heard vague murmurings about potential router dangers like throwing bits of carbide, snapping off shanks, and even throwing bits. These sound like things that would be the results of cheap bits, poor technique, and user error (not tightening the collet etc.) has anyone here ever seen any of these things occur or otherwise have any sense of how common they might be.
Seems like more realistic dangers come from up cutting – finger contact with the bit on a router table – and contacting the bit after completing a cut but while teh bit is still spinning and plunged (like classic circular saw injuries).
Replies
Samson,
A question ot two:
What thought(s) lead you to go hand-held vs using the table router?
What operations do you feel are best done hand-held?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, long before I had room for any large tools like a router table (TS, Jointer, BS, etc.), I had my Makita 3612. I learned to use it with straight edges, jigs, and it's fence to do routine stuff reliably - grooves, dados, rabbets, mortises, squaring and trimming panels, simple edge treatments, etc. I got a table much later, and have not found much use for it. I suppose I got the table at about the same time I was drifting strongly toward hand tools for mor operations so I don't use it for things like cutting tenons.
Samson,
My reason for asking was to get a feel for how you felt using table vs hand-held operations. You know, I think a lot of folks have a preconceived notion that any hand-held operation is much more dangerous than its table performed counterpart.
I for one don't agree with that and I think that is part of what I think you're saying. What I mean is that you have much more experienced performing many operations via hand-held and I think that contributes a lot to the safety factor for you. This might not be true for the less experienced.
However I feel there are some operations that are vastly improved by using a table with a fence. One in particular is when putting a decorative edge on a long board, perhaps a long thin board. I'm sure there are many others and it will be interesting to see what others have to offer.
Great discussion and thanks for posting it.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I have no doubt that the table is the better method for certain things. The table takes too much setting up for certain things, and that kind of leads me to think about other ways to get it done.
Lately, edge treatments are something I would first try with a molding plane. I'd also use a wide board and rip off a thin molding, rather than try to cut the profile on the thin stock.
Bob,
I, for one, feel safer using a hand-held power tool than a stationary one, though I never hesitate to use either. I would rather be moving the cutter away from myself than moving myself towards them. I think that it's more likely to have stock thrown using your stationary (more powerful, generally) tools and your fingers ending up in the cutters. I've been fine with hand held tools as long as I keep a good grip on them. I have had a DeWalt 13 Amp drill toss itself 8' when the holesaw I was using got caught.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Saw the comment about hole saws. Those open a whole new world of horror stories. The most dangerous tools I've ever used and I have the scars to prove it. Very unforgiving of fools.
I love hole saws but rarely recommended them to other people because they are so fearsome.John White
Dear John,
I have read your reviews for years. Thank you for all of your participation in these forums. I have been in he building trade now more than twenty years. Are you talking about handheld drill type holesaws? I'm not clear why they would have a fearsome reputation. True, the large ones can be less than fun, but taken slowly, they are really pretty good tools.If that is what you meant as all.Best,John
John,Thank you for your thank you.No, I was talking about fly cutters, which have a single cutter hanging off the end of a bar extending out from a center assembly in the drill chuck. They can only be used in a drill press and create impressively large and very smooth and accurate holes, but if they snag, or you get your hand in the way, all hell breaks loose.I've also had some memorable experiences drilling holes with large cylindrical hole saws, mostly for drain pipes when I was a contractor. I've been spun around inside of a sink base cabinet once, and tore the handle right off a heavy duty Makita drill that I had been "smart" enough to brace against a joist another time.John W.
John
I think hole saws are safe compared to self feeding bits. I have a monster of 4 5/8ths milwaukee bit that you must experiance when you are on the end of it.. My worst hole was one I drilled horizontally thru 14 inches of black ash 9 feet in the air!
You better believe I braced the heck out of that and let it do it's own thing with only my finger on the trigger.. I was all set for the sudden jerk (which surprisingly never happened)
You're a brave (and a bit lucky) man.John W.
John
Not really. I didn't hold onto that beast. The drill was well supported and firmly braced. the only risk I exposed myself to was the trigger finger.. A lot of really big timbers would have had to be torn away before it could have got to me..
I will admit that holding onto it drilling thru the subfloor I will only do it if the drill can be firmly braced.
John,"fly cutters"....... oh yes, I've seen those. they do look like a good way to get hurt!Best,John
They work so well though!! I'll agree there is a serious pucker factor when using them. It's one of those things I check everything four times before proceeding. Like Viagra, check with your doctor to see if your heart is up to the stress!!
I've never found fly cutters to be that scary. Maybe it's because I first encountered them in the context of metalworking on a milling machine, where everything is very solid and firmly tied down.
-Steve
My plan is to acquire a mill/drill eventually. An 8" fly cutter in a consumer grade drill press running at an appropriate speed for the cutter is not a comfortable thing. Most of the time nothing goes wrong, but as John said when it goes wrong it is bad berries.
Like you I learded very quickly, 1/2" Milwaukee angle drill with 4 1/2" hole saw. Drilling for sanitary drain and grabbed a nail. Pulled me right into the stud wall and couldn't get my finger off the trigger. From then on it was brace drill against the studs from the get go. Lesson learned ;-)Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce,Like you I learned the hard way. Part of the problem is the drills don't seem that dangerous because they are turning relatively slowly, my drill is 600 rpm. Of course, once you have been beaten up by one of them, you know it is the torque not the speed that gets you with the big bits. From experience I also learned to make sure that my trigger finger would pull off of the switch if the tool grabbed. Now whenever I use a big drill and a hole saw I take a minute to figure out where things will go if the bit grabs, of course then it never does.John W.
I once experienced the equivalent of a kickback on the router table: I was machining a piece that, by geometric necessity, had to be done as a climb cut. I lost control of the piece and it went shooting out of my hands (away from me).
That bent the shank of the bit ever so slightly--I can't see the bend, but there is substantial vibration at speed.
That's the only serious accident I've had with a router. I once had a two-piece template guide (the kind that has a knurled brass ring that screws onto the template part) undo itself in the middle of a cut. That was exciting, but no harm was done (except to the template guide).
-Steve
Dear Samson,
I have been working with these things for twenty years and have performed some "less than recommended" operations. I have never had a problem or accident with a router, but. like yourself, I use only quality stuff. My gut is that a router table is the more dangerous of the two. Pushing material into a high speed rotating bit would seem to be fairly dangerous. On the other hand, while using a hand held router, both the router and the bit seem to end up in fairly close proximity to some sensitive bodily areas, anything letting go at 15,000+ RPMs would seem.................................... um.............................. painful at best!
John
"How dangerous are routers"?...
Depends on how stupid the operator is... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
I have had a bit jump the router in a hand held scenario where I was using too much depth and not tightened enough. I have had a 1/4" shank break hitting a knot. I have had a piece of carbide tip break off the bit and who knows where it ended up. The good news is it wasn't in me who works alone.
But.. the question was the router dangerous or was the operator just stupid?
I think the latter as the first scenario was in a hurry.. cut too deep and didn't tighten enough a the sun was about to go down trimming and edge on a deck outside.
Second scenario was too much bite with a cheap 1/4" shank. Third was a router bit that was used for economy and not quality.
I am about 50-50 on hand held and router table. I am confident with the router on either as long as I take the time to eliminate the stupid factor before starting. I fired that stupid operator many years ago and there is not much chance of him getting back on the pay-roll! :>)
Sarge..
Samson
I avoid whenever possible using handheld router. My reasoning is that I don't want to be holding that roaring spinning thing if something goes wrong, since I can't shut it off without using both hands.
I have broken a bit, and bent one while in the table, and it seems to me it was safer to be able to shut off the power switch and walk away from the table while it spun down than holding it at arms length while it vibrated like a blender.
Samson,
I've used just about every type of router bit and most type of router table operations (the main exception being pin routing). I use CMT TCT or woodrat HSS bits for the most part. I taught myself from books and via some very, very careful practice. The one thing you really do need is (justified by knowledge) confidence. Nervous dabbing of cutter into workpiece is not a good technique and results in the cutter taking charge.
When I first began woodworking I bought a set of cheap bits. In truth they have been fine, except for one 8mm straight bit of 1 inch length and 1/4 inch shaft. This broke off a whole TCT cutting edge whilst inside the work. Happily everything was strapped in the woodrat at the time, so I just heard a clunk and nothing flew through the air at 100 mph. Phew!
But routers are dangerous thangs, especially in the hands of the inexperienced, the incautious and the plain stupid. Naturally, I am none of the above. :-)
I have seen people do silly things with routers. Some lads seem unable to grasp the basic mechanics of how the cutters work. They try to make climb cuts, take great bites with large diameter cutters and never slow the big buggers down. They wobble on edges that are too narrow and drop work pieces on to bits sticking up a whole inch from the router table.
As you suggest, the operator is the greatest danger so one must educate oneself concerning those router-cutting physics and then pay attention all the while. It's no different from understanding how a plane blade works in order to get the best out of it and to use it to best effect.
Modern routers and bits are very well made. You never see cutters without the safer design having wings to limit the bite the blade can take, for instance. Also, tolerances of things like shaft and collet diameter are generally exellent. I use 4 different makes of router and maybe 5 or 6 brands of cutter (albeit mosty CMT or woodrat). None of them present a bad (i.e. too tight or slack) fit.
Potentially the most dangerous opertions involve large cutters, especially those with acute profiles, such as a lock mitre cutter or cope& stick cutters. There must be no wobble in the work piece when such things are used. They are unforgiving. Moulding curved work freehand on the router table is also potentially dangerous, as it is easy to get a snatch on the sharper curves and/or when the grain tilts into the direction of the cutter rotation. But even these operations are safe with the right technique and jigs (hold-downs, pivot-pin, gripper-guide or whatever).
Lataxe, as yet un-bit
I've had a few scares... some were close calls. Most of them were due to operator error... but, still things can go wrong.
Just treat the tool with the respect it's due, and you should be OK...
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
Ditto John's remarks. I've been using routers on a daily basis for over 25 years. I'd have to say they're one of the safer tools in my shop and that generally, hand held use is safer than table mounted use only because it's easier to hang on to a router than a piece of wood. But they're are exceptions. You just need to be aware of grain and feed direction.
Never thrown a bit. Never broken a shaft. My only real incident was when I was first starting out and tried to do some free hand end grain shaping on a router table using a bit with a bearing and no starting pin. That's an operation you only do once. Proper body position saved me. As with any power tool, accidents can happen. So, be safe.
Paul
Built this to keep hands out of harms way and keep the work from ever getting caught in the cutter rocket-pocket.
More on router safety.
I use the table as much as possible, rather than hand held. Never had any thing exciting happen though.
James
Samson,
When it comes to routers, I use which ever is more convinient for the job. Small pieces go to the router table and the router goes to the large pieces. The only "exciting thing that's happened with a router bit is having the bearing come off. I buy good quality bits, 1/2" shank whenever possible.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
In 30 years, the only serious accident I've had has come from a router in a router table. Tried to do a little climb cut, and the bit yanked the work--and my fingers--through the bit. One finger ended up looking like raw hamburger stuck on a bone.
I still use a router (almost daily), both hand-held and table-ized. I'm just careful and I don't ever think that I could pull my hand out of the way in case of an accident. The accident happened long before the neurons finish transmitting to one's tiny brain what one's eyes (behind safety glasses, of course) just observed.
BTW, I've had bits break, but they broke completely, and were stuck in the piece. No shrapnel. This only happened with grizzly bits, and I don't buy grizzly bits anymore.
Pond......... Guess why I never climb cut?
James
I have once only snapped a carbide bit, a quarter inch down cut. I had mounted the router on an overhead fixed arm at an angle over a table upon which I slid the flat sheet of work into the cutter. All was going well until the interruption when I turned slightly and all went BANG!
Routers are safe, we are dangerous. I try very hard to ignore everyone else when doing anything these days and that seems to be the key to staying in one piece and remaining complete.
Routers are safe - but, like all power tools, they require CONSTANT vigilance. Two days ago I was plunge cutting, in 1/4" increments, a long path through 1 3/4" cherry. As it was to be a 'through' cut, I had the material supported on 2" x 2" hardwood blocks to provide clearance above the bench.I had not placed one of the support blocks far enough out of the way of the cut. (Dumb!) When the 1/2" bit hit that block, stuff went wild!!!. Thank goodness I was holding the router with both hands - I was barely able to control it. I bruised my hand so bad that the pain woke me up out of a sound sleep the next night - but at least I didn't have to chase that 'roaring monster with sharp teeth' across the shop floor.Like the bumper sticker says, "Stuff happens!". In the shop, "Stuff happens - REAL fast!".Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Samson
I've had a scary moment and yes it was my fault with a hand held router..
My fault or not it's a tool that I treat with respect because of the energy in something spinning that fast.. (13,000 rpm
To turn one upside down in a router table would seem to greatly increase the risk.
AT least with a shaper you're spinning at half of the speed and the whole method of attachment is more secure..
Frenchy,
I understand that modern spindle moulder machines are safe now because of the proper attachment of the tooling and the various guard systems. However, I also read that the older moulder of yesteryear was a death machine, responsiblefor more horrible events in the workshop than anything else. The fundamental cause was the amount of energy resident in the angular momentum of those heavy heads and blades which were only attached by a bolt and, if let loose of their moorings, would act like shrapnel.
Of course you are right to note that the method of attachment for router bits (a collet with no safety pin) is inherently less secure than a modern moulder head and its tooling. But the spin wants to throw the bit sideways, not up; so there seems little risk of a router bit leaping up-out-and-away of the collet, even were it loose. (Of course, any wobble of a loose bit might cause a nasty bite-and-snatch into the workpiece).
You rarely hear of router table accidents where the bit flew about. The usual tales are of hands pushed into the bit because the operator made the fatal error of exerting a pushing force towards the bit and then something goes amiss with the feed procedure.
Personally I only use hands to push when the workpiece is large and my hands are pushing parallel to the fence but some distance away. Otherwise it's the pushing tool for me. I have a large plastic handle that takes either a flat ribbed rubber strip or one that's formed into a right angle. This allows narrow stock to be pushed firmly past the bit wth one's hand well away and moving past, not towards the bit. I also have a two-handled vice thang which holds smaller workpieces well away from the handles when routing curved parts.
But there will always be a divvil-may-care lad who believes himself immune and exempt from safety considerations until the first horrible occurence. Still, up to that point he may feel manly and strong. (Squelch-splatter)!
Lataxe, a cautious cove.
Lataxe,
The real differance is speed.. 13,000 -15,000 rpm is far more dangerous than the 4500 to 7000 rpm of a shaper. The energy in something at that sort of speed is potentially more lethal compared to the energy at the slower speed.
As to your hands at risk you are of course are correct however there is a slight bit more safety in a shaper since with it's bigger mass and great table size there is a greater tendancy to use a power feeder than would ever be on a router table..
Power feeder are of course the soluition to both risks, exploding bits and feeding issues.. Allowing you to be safely positioned out of any potential line of fire and your hands well away from mutilation..
The rotational energy is proportional to the moment of inertia, and to the square of the rotational velocity. All else being equal, doubling the rotational velocity quadruples the rotational energy. However, when comparing shapers to routers, all else is not equal. A large-diameter, heavy shaper cutterhead has a far, far higher moment of inertia than a typical router bit (although one of those gargantuan panel-raising bits starts to approximate a shaper's cutterhead in terms of its moment of inertia).
The bottom line is that a spontaneously disassembling shaper cutterhead can usually do a lot more damage than a similarly deconstructing router bit, irrespective of the fact that it's turning more slowly.
-Steve
saschafer,
Well imagine the size bit at 15,000 RPM instead of 4500 RPM of a cutter. .
Say a panel bit of 3 1/2 inches compared to the nearly same size cutter.
I looked thru several catalogs and the typical cutter size was around 2 inches while a router bit averaged around an inch and a half..
Routers, like firearms, are only as dangerous as the user and his/her knowledge of its use. It's that simple.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled