Replies

1. 
   wafa | Dec 19, 2009 07:22pm | #1

   You need more heat and, probably, a better glue pot. The pots are available from a number of sources.

   You can keep a pot hot all day long and, as the glue ages in the pot, you can directly add water.

1. 
   salamfam | Dec 19, 2009 07:39pm | #3

   Hello Wafa,

   Thanks for the response. Im not sure I need a new pot. If the goal is to maintain an even temperature of the water bath and glue at approximately 150*, my set up is accomplishing that just fine. Another, more expensive, pot that will maintain the same even 150* temperature isn't going to make a differance. According the all of the information I have read, the temperature of the glue should be maintained at between 145* and 160*. Most caution that hotter temperatures and excess water will reduce the strength of the glue. My pot is capable of reaching and maintaining higher temperatures, what temperature do you bring your glue to?

2. 
   DonStephan | Dec 19, 2009 07:35pm | #2

   The wood is at a temp of 65F, which causes the glue to gel. My understanding is that in "the old days" woodworkers would build a hot fire in the wood stove and stand pieces to be glued nearby, so they would be toasty.

   I've seen a number of recommendations to use 192 gram strength hide glue for general woodworking, but doesn't seem like 250 would be too much different. It might be a little faster gelling than 192, don't know.

   One thing you didn't mention was the ratio of water to dry you mixed. I suspect the thicker the glue, the thicker the glue joint. I mix small quantities in the ratio 2 water to one dry glue by weight, because I haven't learned how to "read" hot hide glue to see if it needs thinning.

   I try to bump the workshop thermostat to at least 70 for a couple hours, brush a pretty thin layer of glue on each surface and then add quite a bit of clamp pressure, all to keep the glue line thin. One nice feature of hide glue (or so I've read) is that it has strong internal cohesion so that the joint is pulled tighter as the glue dries.

   I like the commercial glue pots, but 150F is the same regardless of heating source. As long as the temp is fairly constant, the source shouldn't make a difference other than convenience.

1. 
   salamfam | Dec 19, 2009 07:45pm | #4

   Hello Don,

   Good information, thanks. I think I will have to try heating the shop to 70* or so and maybe I can get a heat lamp to warm the wood a bit. Of course, all this seems like a lot of effort and I don't think anyone but me would know or care about the difference;)

1. 
   nazard | Dec 19, 2009 08:05pm | #5

   I keep a clothes iron and hair dryer handy to heat surfaces prior to brushing on the glue. Works like a charm.

3. 
   RMillard | Dec 19, 2009 08:18pm | #6

   Bob,

   Hide glue with a gram strength that high will, as you have found will gel almost immediately. You can try a heat lamp to warm the parts to be joined. I have done this and it is effective, but only if the parts aren’t likely to warp from the uneven heat. The best approach is to add urea to the glue to extend the working time. I have read that you can add up to 30% urea, but I have never approached that ratio. I don’t measure accurately, but I’d guess I’m using the urea at a ratio of more like 5% of the glue. I think I get better results if I mix the urea with a little water and let it dissolve and then add that to the glue, as opposed to just dumping the dry beads of urea in the glue. I first got urea at the pharmacy ( I had to have it ordered) but now I get it from Jeff Jewiit at Homestead Finishing Products. You may also look at the consistency of the glue. The glue should run off the brush in a nice steady stream. If it is too thick, it will fall off in blobs, or drip very slowly and if too thin, will break up in to individual beads.

   Rob Millard

   http://www.americanfederalperiod.com

1. 
   boilerbay | Dec 19, 2009 11:00pm | #7

   Rob,

   I was hoping you would weigh in on this one.

   Merry Christmas

   John

2. 
   salamfam | Dec 20, 2009 07:44am | #8

   Hello Rob,

   Thanks for the info. I am going to order some urea from Homestead Finishing on Monday. Re. gram strength, when I ordered the glue from LV I purchased both types, the granular @ 260+/- and the pearl @ 150+/, should I just use the pearl? According to LV's paper work, the 250 is high strength for joinery and such, and the 150 pearl is best for veneer. Can I just use the 150 for everything? Do I need to look for something in the 185-190 range? Is there anything I can do with the granular and pearl glue that I have? Thanks.

4. 
   danmart | Dec 20, 2009 07:46am | #9

   http://foldingrule.blogspot.com/2009/01/episode-90-hide-glue-primer.html

   Hide glue grading - hide glue is graded in terms of "gram strength" (GEEK FACTOID: gram strength is a measure of how many grams of force it requires to depress a 1/2” plunger 4mm. into a 12.5% protein solution of the glue at 10° C). Hide glue gram strengths range from 85 to 379. The important point to know is the higher the gram strength, the quicker the set. The general recommendation range for for woodworking applications is 135 - 251 gram strength (192 or 195 is considered the all around glue for most woodworking applications).

   http://www.bjorn.net/

   To all interested in hide glue. This is a tremendous source. Once you read some of the information posted you will realize this guy did this his entire life. He is generous with his time and knowledge. You can call him. Most importantly, he will point you to reliable glue sources.

   To the best of my knowledge… there is only ONE hide glue producer in the USA. Many of the tool suppliers that also offer hide glue may not be the best sources for hide glue?? Maybe? I am not implying the glue is old(should not matter) but maybe an issue with initial quality??

   My final answer to you Bob: Go with the 190 range for assembly. I have the 250gr and I like it for rub joint stuff and I spoon a little in to fatten up my standard mix(190) when I add too much water at times.

   Your shop seems warm enough but I know Tupper Lake well. Boards left over night get rather cold this time of year. This acts against glue set and timing. Warm them up a little.

   Your pot is fine if you can keep your glue 140-150. Remember, the important thing is to keep it from getting too hot. That’s death. Time to remix. A quick check that I use is to take 2 small scraps and brush some glue on both edges and do a “rub joint” with my hands. If it doesn’t grab in a short bit of rubbing, something needs a tweek. This is not complicated .. keep it simple and play with the stuff a little and it will make sense and you will get confident.

   Good luck

   Dan

1. 
   salamfam | Dec 20, 2009 03:38pm | #10

   Thanks Dan,

   Do you think I could mix the 250g and the 150g stuff and arrive at a better all around glue? Maybe I'll give it a try.

1. 
   danmart | Dec 24, 2009 06:05pm | #15

   Bob
   I mix em' all the time.
   Bob

   I mix em' all the time. As Rob M said, the urea is great stuff to slow things down. Get some-its cheap. Additionally, the 250gr stuff sets up very quickly. I gave up on it for chairs. When I am near the end of a big period piece, I mix up a few ounces of 250 in a small jar and do all my rub joints in corners to beef up joints. I don't like "glue panic" thats why I use hide many times. If its a little job, I use Pat Edward's Olde Brown Glue from the bottle. You just drop the bottle in some hot water and its thin and runny for use. The stuff is great and convenient. Pat marks his bottles with dates that are true. I trust him. I have used Pat's stuff past the expiration dates with no troubles. Lastly, if the glue is setting up a little to quickly: table salt will slow down the dry time and have no bearing on the final bond. If it snows too heavy and the mailman can't deliver the urea from HH, get the salt shaker.

   Merry Christmas

   dan

2. 
   roc | Dec 20, 2009 06:37pm | #11

   danmart,

   >Glue info<

   Good job! This is the sort of thing I come here for.

   Thanks

5. 
   Taigert | Dec 21, 2009 06:56am | #12

   I just followed the link provided by danmart and landed at http://www.deller.com and they have a great page on hide glue. They suggest for "genersl woodworking" to use grade 251. So that would answer your ? as to what you should do with your 250. They support Bjorn as the man with the most knowledge on the subject. As well as being the best place to buy hide glue.

   Thanks for starting this thread, it has answered a lot of the questions I had on the subject. I have been thinking about starting to use hide glue myself. So I think in the new year that is the direction I am going to go.

   Taigert

1. 
   salamfam | Dec 21, 2009 04:26pm | #13

   Hello Taigert,

   Thanks for the info. I have been to that site a few times and have read that material. Frets (a site for musical insturment makers) has some good info also. I am still not sure if I can temper the 250g by adding some 150g or vice versa.

1. 
   danmart | Dec 24, 2009 06:17pm | #16

   Yes you can Bob. You can do it. I remember a guy complaining about elmers wood glue getting tooo thick. Another guy told him to add a little water to the mix to make it spread easier. First guy says "No" that will ruin the glue. Second guy says "so what will you do with that half gallon of thick glue?" First guy: get rid of it I don't trust it. Second guy: give it to me. He goes home cuts the glue 10:1 in a 5 gallon bucket and paints his bricks with it. Hello that is called sizing. It seals the brick. yep I now the second guy quite well.. he grew up in a house where they put the clapboards on the front of the house and the split shingles on the back. Not to make forest girl gasp but folks used to take the old motor oil and cut it with kerosene and coat the cedar with oil to give it more life. Times have changed. Hopefully glue has not gotten soooo scientific that we can't do a tweak or two. Remember: the guys who built some of this stuff 200 years ago had a pot hanging over a fire and adjusted it by the way it dripped off the brush. Keep it simple and play around with some scraps. It ain't complicated. Its just glue.

2. 
   danmart | Jan 23, 2010 01:44pm | #20

   Hey Taigert

   I know the there are sources that suggest using 250gr glue for woodworking. OK

   I have been using hide glue for 25 years pretty regularly and I would caution you on the 250 mix. It is over-kill and it sets up very quickly.

   My glue for day to day use: 190gr range with a little urea mixed in.

   For small stuff grab the Old Brown Glue and go. Its about the same as the hot 192gr and its very convenient in the shop. More set up time than yellow glue as a matter of speaking. What is a down side to the glue? For some its the preparation of the glue, maybe getting the wood warm,and others express frustration with having to wait 24 hours for the glue to harden completely.

   Its not perfect stuff or everybody would be using it. Where hide stands alone and maybe someday you will appreciate the benefit is: it is sooo easy to reglue and fix.

   Its a choice you make. The stuff is cheap and you can experiment with it without buying all of the fancy pots and parts. Heck if it doesn't work out, dilute it 15:1 in some hot water and pour it over the dog's dry food. He'll love it. I've been pouring it over old Fang's food for 10 years and he's kickin' like a mule. After all I eat jello and I'm still goin'.

   later

6. 
   TomHigby | Dec 24, 2009 05:31pm | #14

   I think the old-timers flew by the seat of their pants. I doubt that they ever used a thermometer on their glue. I use hide glue for assembly of the occasional Windsor chair, and set my mixed glue in a bath of hot tap-water, which I renew frequently to keep it hot. simple, but effective.

   Tom

1. 
   DonStephan | Dec 24, 2009 08:38pm | #17

   Bob:

   Might be wrong, but I expect the glue to gel almost immediately and keep working. If I'm edge gluing three boards for a tabletop, I'll spread the glue pretty darned thin on adjoining edges and bring them together, then spread on the remaining two edges and bring them together. Then I'll apply the clamps.

   With hot hide glue, I try to spread it thin on 12-18", then dip the brush and spread on the next section, rather than trying to work all of a long edge simultaneously. Hot hide glue is also a good time to dry clamp everything first so that the bottom clamps are all in position, the top clamps are close by, and there are few if any last minute decisions.

1. 
   JayS | Dec 24, 2009 10:43pm | #18

   I've been using hide glue for
   I've been using hide glue for many years and use an electric glue pot so the temperature is pre-determined to beint he desired range. I agree this discussion is way too complicated. I try to get the glue to drip off the brush about like honey. If it's too thin leave the cover off the jar and stir every 5- 10 minutes and =it will thicken as the water evaporates. Add a little water if it's too thick. I've never paid attention to how many grams it is. The hair dryer works great to prepare a substrate but you will curl up veneer with it so it depends what you are trying to do. If you want to re-activate the glue to undo a mistake or remove a piece glued in the wrong spot a heat gun works better. I got a cheap one for under $10 from Northern tools or Harbor Freight and it serves the purpose. Hide glue is great for veneer or situations where you either can't or don't want to have to use clamps. I personally fine it to impose too much stress for most joinery since it sets up quickly even in the best of circumstances and there are so many modern glues out there that allow you comfortable working time without rushing. Good luck.

   Jay

2. 
   DonStephan | Jan 03, 2010 05:32pm | #19

   Thursday I glued a 4 board panel about 44 x 18" with hot hide glue. Woodshop temp was 68 degrees F and I worked as quickly as possible but left thinking the glue joints would be too thick, and I'd have to saw apart, joint and re-glue. When I unclamped the next day the glue lines had become much thinner and looked fine. Saturday I increased the woodshop temp to 75 degrees F in the morning. When I was ready to glue similar sized panels late that afternoon I first laid the boards out, about 1/2" apart, and warmed with a hot air gun for several minutes, until they felt warm to the touch. Hot hide glue as before, but now the glue did not gel firmly until after clamps on. Just FYI.