I am having a hard time getting strong joints using hide glue, edge-to-edge joints recently. I am using Titebond Liquid Hide glue.
With PVA glues, I get strong glue-lines and I often check by breaking apart an end cut-off and seeing where it fails. The wood directly adjacent to the glue line breaks along the grain rather than at the glue line.
With hide glue, I am not getting near the strength. I prep the wood the same way (straight edges, not a sprung joint), apply the glue the same way (even layer on both edges, spread with finger), and clamp it the same way (lots of clamps and very thin glue line – possibly zero thickness). I let the hide glue dry for 24 hours before stressing it as opposed to as little as 1 hour with PVA. And still, the hide-glue joint fails right down the glue line, like I hadn’t applied any glue at all.
Any idea what is happening and why, or suggestions for a better bond? By the way, I am gluing 1/2″ thick butternut at 8% moisture content.
Chris @ www.flairwoodworks.com
and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
– Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. – Albert Schweitzer
Replies
Some thoughts and questions :
Stir up the glue with a stick ( chop stick works great )
Are these edges freshly planed or are they several days old ?
Are they off a motorized jointer ? ( hey I know you are an old pro with a hand plane but you are a modern mechanized guy as well ).
If motorized then jointer knives may be just dull enough to burnish the surface causing poor adhesion. You probably already thought of this but I gotta be thorough. : )
Are you killing a sacrifice to the gods before you begin? Three legged chickens work great !
Maybe you aren't holding your mouth/tong right as you line up the joints and tighten the clamps.
PS: and the piece de resistance Did you coat your jointer out feed table with some new coolguy anti rust stuff that is gettin on the wood ?
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/2/2009 2:03 am by roc
Edited 7/2/2009 2:22 am by roc
Edited 7/2/2009 2:23 am by roc
Rocky,These edges are freshly planed (minutes earlier) with a hand plane. Last week I applied Boeshield to the sole and wiped it down, so I do not suspect any transfer. There was a sharp 50 degree blade in the plane, but I didn't test it for sharp.Let me get this straight: in order to get a good glue joint with hide glue (from the hide of an animal), I must sacrifice another animal? Isn't this redundant?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>sacrifice another animal? Isn't this redundant?You are applying logic. I just go with what works. Something about those chickens with the extra ( redundant ) leg tends to do it though. Some how the third leg penetrates, for lack of better terms or images for dealing with the quantum realm, and breaks done the barrier in the space time continuum and acts figuratively as a conduit between the ninth and eleventh dimensional memBrains allowing a momentary leakage, if you will, of what ever ethereal substance or antisubstance that causes two things to stick together. Science still isn't sure what actually happens when yellow glue sticks things together; let alone hide glue.It is magic you see. If one is going to muck about with magic then one must learn to let go of little hindrances such as logic and embrace the acutrama of the trade, tripedal chickens and such. Well not embrace them exactly that IS creepy but at least be willing to wring their little necks and chuck them into the trusty old potions pot. All the while facing Northern California, where Krenov lives and chanting Irwin, Irwin, Irwin chisels are good,Irwin, Irwin, Irwin chisels are good.But hey I don't make this stuff up. I couldn't. It is just simple glueVoodoo. Life is stranger than fiction.By the way what are your theories on why the glue sucks ? Or doesn't suck I should say.rocPS: of corse it goes without saying you don't want to put the chicken in the glue pot. Keep the glue pot and the potion kettle at least as far apart as the length of a good size Clydesdale. For Gods sake don't put the chicken in the glue pot ! It could set off a matter /antimatter reaction that would cause the world as we know it to wink out. That would leave only the stock exchanges and the place I work, since they don't follow the normal laws of reality they would be wholly unaffected. They would then be doomed to grapple with each other in a death struggle for all time.Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 7/2/2009 10:15 pm by roc
Edited 7/3/2009 12:09 am by roc
Roc,
I see it ALL now! You ARE one of them writers of Red Dwarf!! You have been hiding your light under a cosmic worm hole,me boy.
Shame on ye!
Robin
>hiding your light under a cosmic worm hole,me boy.Nope sorry to disappoint. Just reflecting these guys light.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PVjNlXj2WQ&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIE_00r5VCs&feature=relatedWell and then there is Douglas Adams, Red Dwarf and my awful sarcasm but we won't go there . . . no that would not be good.rocEdit: added more cool stuff including Edward Witten ! ! ! Magician ? Space alien come to earth ? He is certainly a different sort. Or " You know; he's just this guy . . ."Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/3/2009 1:14 am by roc
Rocky,Clearly you are more educated than I on the subject. I will try to remember all I have learned from you today.I think that I overclamped the first joint, thus it's failure. I'm not going to push my luck with the second clamped joint. See my previous post for the official conclusion...Does hide glue taste like chicken even if you don't put the chicken in the glue pot?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris - You mentioned something very early in this thread that got my attention - boeshield. Realize that boeshield has some components that are silicone-wax based, and may also have some teflon components.
None of these are going to be at all friendly to glues that depend on water absorption by the wood to form a good bond - PVA and hide glue included.
It may well be that you've already figured out the problem - out of date glue, or too much clamping pressure, but if you want to take the rust preventative out of the equation, clean the bottom of your plane off with a little bit of laquer thinner on a rag.
One other thing you mentioned is not being too happy with the 24 hour dry time of hide glue - while it's true that it's best to leave the clamps on for that period with hide glue, PVA joints don't reach their full strength until 24 hours later, either (says so on the bottle).
David,I've never actually read the Boeshield can. I admit that I just assumed that it was safe for woodworking tools, silicone-wise.Take two, done before just before I started this thread, worked out okay, even though I used the same method as the first time - 24 hours of high clamp pressure. However, the layer of hide glue from the first run was left on the surface like size. Perhaps that helped.At least some PVA glues state that they require 1 hour clamp time, but still take 24 hours to reach full strength.I think that from now on, when using hide glue, I will apply a coat of size, then glue up and rub the joint and skip clamps.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"I've never actually read the Boeshield can. I admit that I just assumed that it was safe for woodworking tools, silicone-wise."
Well, I think this is what you mean, but it is safe for the tools, but might not be so friendly to the wood when it comes to finishing and gluing. One has to remeber that Boeshield T-9 wasn't developed for woodworkers. ;-)
David,Yes, that is what I meant. While it may not have been developed for woodworkers, it certainly has been accepted as one of the better surface sealants/lubricants.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
David,From the Boeshield website's Q&A page:Q. I am wondering if T-9 has silicone in it? I want to use it within a wood shop, and silicone is a no no for finishing.A. T-9 has no Silicone or Teflon’s it is a paraffin wax base.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"From the Boeshield website's Q&A page:
Q. I am wondering if T-9 has silicone in it? I want to use it within a wood shop, and silicone is a no no for finishing.
A. T-9 has no Silicone or Teflon’s it is a paraffin wax base"
Chris - Very interesting. I was told something quite different in the past, though if this came from the "horse's mouth", than I'll bank on it.
By the way - regarding how long hide glued joints will last, that depends sensitively on the conditions that the furniture or object is kept in. Protected from outdoor conditions, "practically forever" is an appropriate answer. Many of the joints on colonial antiques have never been disturbed, and they're going on 300 years old.
What a lot of us use hide glue for, though, is a bit different. Hide glue is easily and quickly reversible, so a repair is cake. A joint glued up with PVA is much more difficult. PVA can be broken down with acid, but it's not easy, at least in my experience, and every little bit of glue must be cleaned off of the wood surfaces for a re-gluing. Generally speaking, that means that I must pare/plane a little bit of the wood surface to get rid of the PVA that's soaked into the first millimeter or so fo the surface. And that means that I generally need to shim a tenon with a piece of veneer to get it to fit back together properly.
David,Thanks for your two bits on the longevity of glue. I completely agree that hide glue's best attribute is it's reversibility/repairability. Even if I personally don't have to do the repair, I still like using hide glue incase my glue-up goes sideways and I need to try it again. It makes for a less stressful glue-up.Just a thought: PVA glues have not been used for that long (no idea how long though), yet you are already getting pieces of furniture that need repair. Do you think that these repairs are needed because of poor craftsmanship or abuse rather than glue failing?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Since I do not repair furniture, I seldom see failed joints. The ones I have, however, some 50 years old and some less than a year old, almost always seem to be "dry" joints where the adhesive was not thoroughly applied to all the surfaces. A minimal amount of adhesive was applied, for example with mortise and tenon joints a small quantity was simply squirted into the bottom of the mortise and then the joint assembled. Abuse may play a role in premature failure also.
I always suspected that was the case (and secretely hoped too). As long as I don't take those shortcuts...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
You are applying logic... LOL I always wondered why 1 plus 1 was Zero carry two!
Chris.
First off I have never used the 'liquid' hide glue. Only HOT hide glue.
I think the liquid hide glues have some agent to keep it from jelling in the bottle? Not sure about this though. Could your glue bottle be out of date?
I'd say you need a Hot Pot! I forget the details but I think the 'old timers' did some sort of 'sizing' to the wood end-grain. Was it called Distempering or was that term just used for animal glue sizing of paper and paints?
Just a thought. From my little brain.. HOT Hide glue is the only way to go!
One link I found that may give more info than I ever could!
http://www.acousticmusic.org/Hide-Glue-sp-85.html
Those guitar makers are something!
Edited 7/2/2009 4:19 am by WillGeorge
Will,Perhaps my glue is past it's date, though I didn't buy it too long ago and it still is really sticky when I get it on my fingers. Learning with PVA glues out of the bottle, I've been hesitant to try a hot pot.From the link you posted: "It is also possible to keep hide glue liquid at room temerature by adding urea." So there you have it.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"Perhaps my glue is past it's date, though I didn't buy it too long ago...." The last time I bought liquid hide glue, I got it home and belatedly checked the date on the bottle. It was already outdated! Store owner didn't remove it from stock when it went past it's use-by date -- past by quite a bit, not just a couple weeks. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
>got it home a . . . past it's use-by date -- by quite a bit, not just a couple weeksWell don't keep us in suspense like this deer(seemed like a better spelling if I am going to call you deer ) . . .What happened ? Does it work . . . or . . . fail or ? Please don't leave us in suspense like this.I thought of you as soon as I Googled to find out how to spell Clydesdale and saw this pic.http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.farmschool.com/albc/ALBC_Photos/images/Clydesdale_jpg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.farmschool.com/albc/ALBC_Photos/pages/Clydesdale_jpg.htm&h=628w=769&sz=144tbnid=hSYfF702sKaWoM:&tbnh=116tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3DClydesdale&hl=enusg=__urE6V5p6vTf9tOpQZLNmcMJK7Ks=&ei=npdNSpHiD5XANrbPzO0D&sa=Xoi=image_result&resnum=1ct=imagerocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Cool! Love Clydesdales, but never spent any time with them. Did get to drive a 4-horse team of Shires many years ago:
Pic below from Oklahoma State site:
View Image
Scary as heck, as we were going down a single-lane dirt road with Porches and Jaguars, Mercedes lining the edges. I'd never driven a team before, perhaps not the greatest idea! The guy who owned them also raised Newfoundland dogs.
Oh! What happened with the glue?? I took it back. Ticked off the store owner, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Chris..
Just a link I found.. I would do the whole thing with Urea glue! If you can live with a red stripe! My old boat did and I think nobody notices it but my boat was not in a living room!
Chis.. Thenj there is always Acetone before the glue-up..
It sounds to me like your glue is past its shelf life. I found that the printed date on the bottle was not always an accurate predictor of when it was outdated. Smell, viscosity and color were more accurate, with smelly, thin, dark glue being suspect (of course smelly is a subjective term when dealing with hide glue).
At one time I used a lot of liquid hide glue, but in the end I found it even less convenient than hot hide glue, because I had to keep it in the refrigerator, to have any useful shelf life and then I would have to wait for it to reach room temperature. Hitting it for a few seconds in the microwave seemed like a good idea, but this accelerated its demise.
Now, I just do rub joints with hot hide glue , or add urea and clamp it just as you would with PVA glue. Climate conditions and the length of the joint dictate which approach I use.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,I bought the hide glue last November (my, how time flies) so perhaps it's past its shelf life. Who knows how long the glue was on the shelf at the store before I bought it too. By your criteria of bad hide glue, I would say, however, that mine is still good. It is light brown in colour, has a jelly-like viscousity, and doesn't smell that much. I keep mine at room temp in my basement.Perhaps I've been overclamping my joints. I had assumed that the tighter I clamped, the stronger the joint. Perhaps that's limited to PVA glues. This evening, after 24 hours is up, I will see how my last glue-up (take two) went. I will try a rubbed joint if this one fails.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Perhaps I've been overclamping my joints... I hope it was with a woman that loved you and she did not run off from fright!
I have to admit I messed up on my China beds! I am now in the process of gluing on longer tenons! OK, so I added dowel in the center of those 3/8 inch tenon that should be as long as I wanted them to be in the first place! What was I thinking of?
I guess I'm sort of like Patty Page singing changing parteners!
Chris,
I think you are overclamping it. Try a sample with less or no clamp pressure and see how you do. You can't treat hide glue the same as PVA.
Adam
Thanks Adam.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Sounds like the glue is past it's usable life. I understand it only has a 6 month shelf life. And if you bought it in november. Then your past the 6 months.
I think a glue pot is the only way to go. I keep PVA around for using ply wood an particle boards. But I prefer hot hide.
I just completed some utilitarian stuff for my church. I used pva for it and forgot how much I hate that stuff. You have to be extra careful with squeeze out. Sticks all over stuff.
Hot hide is great if you get a little squeeze out, you just wait till it's gummy and peel it off. I keep a scraper that is only squared at the ends, no burr, for cleaning up the hide glue. When it's gummy it peels right of the scraper and goes back in the pot. No extra cleaning. I prefer shellac for finish and it has no affect on the finish.
Talma,I enjoyed/learned from your post. You should share your knowledge and experiences more often please.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Well, the glue-up (clamped) I did two days ago when I started this thread held together. I didn't beat on it, but it passed the thumb-pressure test. At the same time, I made a rubbed joint - glue on one surface, rubbed them together until I felt it grab (feels similar to truing one waterstone on another - hydraulic lock). This morning, I stuck one half in the Tucker vise and bead the mating piece with a big stick (eh!) until the joint failed. After three big whacks, the joint failed, and to my surprise, the failure transcended the glue line - it ran diagonally across. Great!I will still further my research into hot hide, as I'm not a big fan of the 24-hour dry time of liquid hide. One good thing about hide glue is that to reglue a joint, just apply glue - no need to remove the old glue!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
I must admit, I have always discounted excessive clamp pressure as a source for joint failure, but I was wrong to do so.
When I first started woodworking, I made shelves to sell at craft fairs, out of 2x4's from Kmart, and being only 14 or 15, I thought more was better, so I slathered on a thick coat of white glue and went so far as to use a cheater bar to help tighten the clamps ( I was an even bigger weakling then). Despite that off the charts clamping pressure I never had a joint fail.
I think you will like hot hide glue, as it is more versatile than liquid hide glue, and has some amazing properties that I couldn't work without.
Rob Millardhttp://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
I was visiting your web site (I look often, love your work) and noticed your blog entry on the flag/certificate case, thought I would show you mine.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Bob,
I like your design, it has the all important (to me) symmetry. I have seen others, that stick the flag up in the corner, which makes for easy fabrication but looks odd.
I especially like the matting detail, but I can't tell exactly how it was done.
Rob Millardhttp://www.amerricanfederalperiod.com
Thanks Rob,
My photography skills are really lacking, as is my photo set-up. It is hard to tell in the photos, but the certificate is mounted on a 1/2" piece of mdf that was first painted a wine color and covered with flock. Then the edges and certificate boarder were painted with gold paint. I should not have placed the blue towel under them when I photographed them because it gives the illusion that the inside painted back does not exist. Actually there is a painted 1/4" mdf back to which the certificate plaque is attached, via stand offs so it looks like its floating.
I like your design though, it has more of a period feel, where as mine is a bit more modern.
One good thing about hide glue is that to reglue a joint, just apply glue - no need to remove the old glue! I would suggest that you remove any old wood held by the old glue! May make a bump in the joint!
Will,I think that that's one of the biggest benefits to hide glue. Do you think that applying a coat of size, letting it dry, then gluing the joint together with more glue would help for a stronger joint?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris.
That is what I do. However, that does not make it the correct thing to do. I only think it helps.
Chris,It's all about bondline thickness. Hide glue and epoxy are not like PVA. They want discernible bond lines. Over clamp and they extrude out. The reason why the sizing works is because some of it kicks off and prevents you from fully pulling the joint up. In some industrial applications where glues are used structurally, thin fiberglass mesh or scrim cloth is used between the mating parts to prevent the glue from being extruded out under clamp pressure. Adam
Adam,Thanks for the explanation.Will,It's not just you - a sized joint is better.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
thin fiberglass mesh or scrim cloth .. I agree.. I did that on my boat I made long ago...
Maybe I read in Popular Mechanics Mag.. LONG AGO.. Not sure where.. I used the fibereglass webbing, for cars and boats, between the wood and that wonderful red glue mixed with water!
Mr. Millard and others convinced me to try hot hide glue about six months ago and I use it more and more. I've found that with some planning, waiting 24 hours for the glue to cure doesn't stop work. Simultaneously I started using the jointer plane on the edges after the power plane, and the first few shavings are never full length, so I think the joints are better for kissing with a jointer plane. Since it's already in hand, I also "spring" the joints. I'll stand the first board on edge in a clamp and as each additional one is worked dry stack the assembly to make sure the boards want to lay flat, before even doing a dry assembly.
Each time hot hide glue is needed I'll mix up a new tiny batch in a 2:1 ratio as I can't "read" the thickness of hot hide glue yet. One time the glue was leftover from a few days earlier and I found out after the fact thicker. It gelled more quickly, and when clamped the joints were slightly apart due to the thick glue. But the next day they had pulled tight as the glue cured. If I have say a tabletop with more than 4 boards, I'll glue just 3 at a time so clamps can be applied in timely fashion.
Just my two cents.
Don,Thanks for your insight. Have you tried a rubbed joint? I don't think you can rub a sprung joint.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Ah, my boy, you need to read the writings of Nakashima to understand the materials you are working with. George talked to the wood. The wood told him what to do. You are talking to people who spend too much time on the computer. You would be better off talking to the wood. I talked to the wood about the Titebond Liquid Hide Glue. The wood told me to call the Titebond customer service people. I did. The conversation was wonderful. I asked about the dates on the bottles. The nice lady said that the one year rule is only a guideline. I told her I just bought a bottle, and there was only six months left to the year. She said that far better than most. The glue has to be delivered to distributors who distribute it to warehouses who distribute it to stores who have it on their shelves.I have heard what Danmart has said about Patrick Edwards's glue. If it can help me make furniture as nice as Patrick's, I will certainly use it. When I rank the woodworkers of the world, Kintaro Yazawa comes in first, Patrick Edwards is second, then you, Ray Pine and David Savage are tied for third. :-)I have a compatriot at the store who has been using the Titebond stuff for years. He does a lot of repairs, and says that he loves the stuff. I asked him about shelf life. He laughed. This guy is not as fastidious as you are about testing joints, but he does do a LOT OF WOODWORK. He says he has never had a failed joint. If he is worried, he glues a few sticks together to see if the glue is still good. I am beginning to worry about you. If you test your glue, I fear you may be testing your sealers, your finishes, your screws, your tools, your wood, etc. This means that you will never get any woodworking done. They say that "one can never be too careful", but being fastidious can also take the life out of living. You have to dive into your work and swim in it. Like David Carradine in the old Kung Fu series, you "Must become one with what you do." Look at the Ming Dynasty table on the back of the latest FWW. It only needs glue in one joint. The rest is held together by the joinery. With the right joinery, the glue becomes less important Think more and more about draw bore pinned mortise and tenon, and other self-sustaining joinery.Live each day as if it is your last.
If you do this, you will spend little time testing glue, and none on Knots.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Y'know, I do listen to what the wood tells me. I deal with a lot of really unique wood, with and without live edges, so my materials provide a lot of inspiration.So one year for Titebond Liquid Hide - good to know, and thanks for sharing what you learned. And if it's any consolation, I only test my glue on actual projects.I don't think that you can understate the importance of good joinery. Some, of course, goes overboard and becomes more decorative than functional.I live for tomorrow.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hmmm....When I listen to the wood, all it says is:
"Ouch! Hey! Stop that. Knock it off! What do you think you're going to do with that?!"Chrishttp://acornhouse.wordpress.com/
a hobbyist's journey
Chris,
So when you work on wood, it says ""Ouch! Hey! Stop that. Knock it off! What do you think you're going to do with that?!"Use a gentler touch, and it will respond: "Ooooooohhhhh, Oooooooohhhhh,Wooooooooooooooo, aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh."Mel
PS Ever notice that things can get pretty weird here on Knots?Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
MelPS Ever notice that things can get pretty weird here on Knots?
And around my house in real life...
Will George,
Good to hear from you. Hope things aren't too weird around the house.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
And how is the triped chicken?
ASK
Are you asking about Roc's suggestion of a sacrifice, or am I lost?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Yes about the sacrifice. It was late in the day and I was ready to go home and I read your gluevoodoo explanation.
ASK
I couldn't catch a chicken, so no-go. Instead, I just held my tongue the right way and it worked.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>I couldn't catch a chickenI can recommend the chapter in the beginning of the book The Power Of One. The old tribal healer shows his finger to a chicken and draws a line in the dirt. The chicken is totally mesmerized by this and just stands there looking at the line in the dirt. The old guy walks away and the chicken just stands there. The kids love it.Hey good news about the Boeshield T-9. No reasons to buy another metal aerosol can to throw away latter. Can just rub the tools with a little paraffin wax. "Back to basics" and all that.>Joints that don't rely on glue.That's it ! From now on I use a deep tung and groove and put pegs in every few inches for my edge joints to make table tops.Has any one out there had an edge joint in a table top of any kind fail at the glue line on any old furniture? I like to ask that question about once a year here on Knots.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Hi roc,
"From now on I use a deep tung and groove and put pegs in every few inches for my edge joints to make table tops"
I had an old table here in the shop a while back whose top was joined up with loose tenons every two feet or so along their edges. The tenons weren't glued in place, just pegged on both sides of the joint. The ends were held together by a breadboard that was pegged in place as well.
"Has any one out there had an edge joint in a table top of any kind fail at the glue line on any old furniture? I like to ask that question about once a year here on Knots."
It is not the most common repair on tables, but yes, I have seen a few glue lines open up on old tables. Usually it is a result of the tops being screwed fast or glueblocked in place, and the joint opens due to shrinkage. Usually it is a partial failure, and the joint remains sound for at least some of its length. Happens with door or case end panels too, from time to time.
Ray
>a few glue lines open up on old tables. Usually it is a result of the tops being screwed fast or glueblocked in place, and the joint opens due to shrinkage.Well at least the glue isn't just turning to dust one day and the table collapsing while someone is eating dinner.On the one hand I read about Egyptian furniture that is three thousand years old still together at the glue joints and on the other hand authors are sayiing that " the glue WILL FAIL just a matter of time" and it seems they are talking inside of three hundred years.I am just trying to find out the score. Personally I think a free moving table top shouldn't have any jointed seam problems due to glue deterioration and we can all just relax.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Rocky,I have been asked by clients how long a glue joint lasts for, and I have never had a satisfactory answer. For me, either they fail the next day, or they last longer than I can record. You make a good point about Egyptian furniture, or at least antiques. I've been reading "Furniture" by Judith Miller, which goes over furniture from ancient times to the present. Mostly chair in Egyptian times, held together mechanically either by the binding of the seat or pegs. But lost of furniture has held up since the 1700s and longer. Is PVA and other modern glues (epoxy, CA, polyurethane, etc) as good as animal based glues in the long-run, repairability aside?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,Is your goal with the hide glue to allow for multi century life span of your pieces, or to determine warranty terms? Perhaps you can tell clients that regardless of glue type, you'll stand behind your work, but past your warranty period, you'll charge a modest repair fee.I had a conversation with a Franklin glue geek, relating to questions about T3 and drum making. One question I asked was about T3's life span (somewhere, I wittily injected the phrase "unexpectedly fly apart"). Franklin assured that many generations into the future would enjoy the drum, and no, Seth, the drum won't unexpectedly fly apart. However, they didn't provide exact endpoints of T3's life span. All of my furniture is built with either T2 or T3. I used pinned mortise and tenon joints in some pieces, I felt pinning is cheap insurance against future glue failure, whatever that means. I suppose if the modern PVA glue doesn't fail during my lifetime, then at least, the pins are nice decoration.Just my 2 cents.
Cheers,Seth
Seth,I have no problem guaranteeing my work, but all the same, I do like to know how long I should expect my work to last, provided I did everything right. The biggest reason I have begun using hide glue more and more is the repairability factor. Take for example, my last glue-up. It was a massive one, daunting as ever. I fumbled my way through and didn't get too much sticky hide glue on my fingers. In the end, I didn't get enough clamps on so I had some gaps. Instead of having to break the glue joints apart completely and scrape back to bare wood and try again, I merely used a heat gun to reactivate the glue, added a bit more for good measure and threw some more clamps on. Hide glue made for a less stressful glue-up.I agree wholeheartedly with you on mechanical reinforcement, whether it be in the form of pins, dovetails, wedges, etc.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,I see what you mean, especially with the large glue-ups. PVA doesn't really have second-chance characteristics, does it?We are lucky to have the benefit of looking backwards in time to see what has worked. That animal hide glue has survived for so long as the gold standard adhesive is remarkable, as are the pieces that have beaten the odds to exist in our age.Tough to know if any of those Egyptian crafters thought their work would live to see our today, but I sure have that thought for things that I make. I wonder how far into the future my work survives before being claimed by some bit of bad fortune. Perhaps worse, having my good name cussed out 100 years from now by some furniture guy making a repair, on my choice of PVA glue instead of hide glue.Or, maybe in 100 years, someone will have by then invented a PVA glue dissolving chemical, allowing for the complete restoration of an antique...using hide glue as the replacement adhesive!Cheers,Seth
>how far into the future my work survives before being claimed by some bit of bad fortune.That includes someone not so smart who had the " throw away " mentality say in a hundred years saying ; " Oh I got that from my parents but it doesn't fit in with the purple aluminum look that we want so lets send it to the dump."No aspersions on your work. I have just known some people with bad taste, who are impulsive and have no eye for quality. They would easily send off a piece worth thousands to make way for that "great deal from goodwill" they got for twenty bucks or to " get rid of the clutter " .I feel like writing on the underside of some of my projects " This is REAL woodwork; not junk. If you feel like selling it cheep or sending to the dump because it is in the way think again ! At least give it to an antique mall ."Fine, dovetailed, hand worked, exotic wood, balanced design or replica of such and such a historical treasure going to the dump.That is the stuff of nightmares ! ! ! ! ! ! . . . quake, quake . . . bottom lip and chin quivering . . . I need some comfort food and my blankie .rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 7/24/2009 4:11 am by roc
Edited 7/24/2009 4:15 am by roc
Hi, Roc,I understand your point, and yes, a piece can absolutely fall victim to the stupidity of its new owner. How many wooden things stolen from a pharaoh's tomb were chopped up and used for firewood? Hypothetical, but it puts me in a blue mood.What a nifty idea, leaving your voice on the furniture."Please use me, admire me, clean me, fix me. Please don't abuse me, forget me, defile me, or abandon me."Cheers,Seth
Edited 7/24/2009 11:08 am ET by Hamelech
Roc,Sad but true.I've been reading Judith Miller's "Furniture" (BIG book!), and in the intro, she talks about how her "parents were proud to say they had throwna way the old VIctorain furniture they had inherited and replaced it with the latest modern designs."fI shake my head.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Seth,No sirree, PVA does not give us an easy way to try again. Though perhaps epoxy would bond PVA to PVA, but there's still the issue of getting it in there. Come to think of it, the only reason I had to do this glue-up is because it is disguising a borderline-pass glue-up done with PVA.I would surely like my furniture to last generations. Thousands of years would be nice too, though that may be a little too much to promise!Right! Dissolve PVA and switch to hide glue. As plausible as that seems, it does seem a little backwards. (Doesn't acetone dissolve PVA with a little effort?)Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,You're probably right about the acetone dissolving PVA, I've never tried it. I went searching around the web, and became distracted by a recipe that mixed borax, water and PVA glue, becoming some sort of slimy solid that you gross out your friends (according to the project results).http://www.doitscience.com/tag/pva-glue/That added no value to the discussion about hide glue, but there it is, just throwing it out there.To get back on track, what's your thoughts about using hide glue for drums? From the experience you've picked up, would you think it to be a good glue for a modern rock or jazz drum? Attached are some examples of what I make, using Titebond 3.I use stave construction, so hide glue probably would work just fine. I've not yet dived into making ply drums, and for that, I'd not choose hide glue; builders on the drum forums report Titebond 3 is very serviceable.Cheers,Seth
I have come across some glue failures where the glue seems to have crystallised and then come unstuck from one face of the joint.Would this be hide glue? If not could somebody suggest what it could be?I have never used hide glue but from what I have read here then I should obviously make the repairs with it.The age of the failed joints seems to be in the 20 to 70 year range.
dav,
Old hide glue does sometimes look sort of like granulated brown sugar. Esp if the glue line is a thick one. Not sure what makes it go that way. I have a Victorian era desk in the shop now that is suffering from the same proble, many of its glue blocks and other joints have simply let loose. This piece has been in a vacation home for many years, so maybe extremes of heat and cold cycling over and over have this effect. Just guessing tho.
Ray
More knowledgeable people have told me hide glue has not been widely used in commercially manufactured furniture since around 1920. Apply a couple drops of water to the dried glue, and if it becomes sticky it is hide glue. I seem to have read that vinegar can be used next to see if dried glue is PVA, but not sure.
I'm not sure if fresh hide glue would stick to dried PVA residue, but after removing dried PVA or epoxy residue it might be an option to re-glue.
Seth,Thanks for sharing that amusing link. I wonder if that kind of PVA is more easily reversible? Better yet, that might be a good April Fools day joke in the wood shop!I barely know a 50 gallon drum from an ear drum, so...Titebond III is a PVA glue, so I beleive that it does creep. Is that indesirable? Hide glue, on the other hand, forms a very rigid glue line. I know that in guitar making, a rigid glue line is preferred. But maybe in drums, the creep better absorbs the vibrations? Just speculation here.There's a bit of a discussion on coopering going on in the thread on a Blanket Chest in the Gallery. You've probably got the clamping part down pat (judging by how well-executed your drums appear). What method do you use? Band clamps? Pinch dogs? Something else? And how do you clean up the edges?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,The glue discussions that have taken place on the drum building forum are similar to the usual holy wars on Knots. Usually, it's epoxy versus PVA. PVA wins, except for exotic woods.The glue lines are not taking any sustained force, possibly some manner of compressive force as the drum heads are tightened, definitely no shearing forces. The glue has to deal exceptionally well with shock and vibration, and Franklin was very glowing about T3's capabilities in this regard. It has to be hide glue was used to build drums "back then", but did the glue ever fail because of the repetitive shock and vibration? If a Stradivarius violin can survive vibrations for 300 years..... I form the miters on the router table, using 15 or 11.25 degree chamfer bits. My method of work is the fence is to the left of the bit. That way, the stave edge acting as the reference is never being cut. I alternate edges after each run, which guarantees the edges to be parallel to each other. The edges have always been good to go right off the router table, no need to run a hand plane to clean up. For a 12, 16 or 20 stave drum, you're dealing with 24, 32 or 40 edges; cumulative errors in the angle must be hunted down. In fact, after shimming the router to get the angle dead on, noodling around with the stave's edge after cutting will undo all that hard work. No noodling!Attached are pix of my clamp system. The cherry kick drum is 20" diameter by 22" tall, the bird's eye maple is a 14 x 6 snare. Hose clamps used for ducting are excellent for drums; two or three ganged up solves for all diameters. Also attached, my turning rig. About $150 in parts, capacity is 26" swing. Have you seen the cost and footprint of a 24" lathe?I'll mosey over to the blanket chest thread, see if it's still active.Cheers,Seth
Seth:
Curious (amazed, really) as to how you glue up so many pieces at one time and get clamps in place and tightened without the glue prematurely starting to set. A couple octopus shop assistants? This might be a challenge to trying hide glue, although as you pointed out in use the drum skin pulls the joints together rather than trying to push them apart. Urea additive and/or heating the staves will lengthen the working time of hide glue.
Reduced splotching under dye/stain is one reason I like hide glue, but your turning jig suggests any and all glue on surface removed during "turning."
Hi, Don,The glue up is easier than it looks. As preparation, I line the staves up, edge to edge, outsides are facing up, and I run two separate strips of blue painter's tape across the staves in the latitude direction.Now, they are all 'chained together'. Loop them into a circle, and get the clamps pre-adjusted. Excitement time is right around the corner.Take off the clamps, lay the staves flat on the bench with the outside faces down, inside faces are up. Slather glue on all the miters (hurry!), loop the staves into a circle, put on the clamps (don't crank, just pull the joints together), tap staves into alignment, now crank the clamps. Let it bake 24 hours.On hot days, or in the case of the kick drum (due to size), I glue in sections, no more than 4-6 staves at a time. Stress is reduced to zero, and there is no risk of premature glue set. Correct, any glue drips and stains are eliminated when the shell is turned. However, I still work to keep glue drips to a minimum, wiping with a damp rag, and I scrape any residual glue away before turning. I want my carbide bit to eat wood, not dried PVA.Cheers,Seth
Edited 7/26/2009 12:24 pm ET by Hamelech
Seth
I use the router to turn square blanks(2 1/4 x 20) to cylinders with a router box set to my lathe. I have been using a big round nose bit to cut the rough stock. I do this when I have 100 blanks for legs and stretchers and I find it quicker and easier than using my roughing gauge.
Question: What bit are you using? Photo?
Found your drum construction very interesting. Nice. I'm glad I was wandering around on the subject of hide glue. I mix my own stuff up most of the time in small amounts but I usually have a bottle of Patrick Edwards Olde Brown Glue on hand. I trust him on freshness. He's a serious woodworker who makes and uses his glue as well as the hot stuff. Hide glue is good stuff-- that's not saying the PVA is not good stuff. I think its best to evaluate each task/project and make a choice.
When I am building windsor chairs, I can't imagine NOT using a repairable glue. I also find the extra time in the glue up if I add some salt to the mix to make it easier than rushing with the yellow glue.
PVA is also good stuff. If I am doing a bunch of picture frames, a little dab of the yellow stuff is easy and it works well.
So many choices I guess
dan
Edited 7/26/2009 1:27 pm ET by danmart
Hi, Dan,A good 'ol 3/4" straight bit most of the time, sometimes a 1/2" diameter straight bit. I've been using Woodcraft brand, but being a router bit snob, I really like Whitesides. For turning the inside of a shell, it's the same bit, 1/2" to 3/4".I've thought about switching to a core box or round nose, I might do that yet. What sort of tooling marks does a round nose leave behind, any significant tear out? The straight bits are not always kind, I probably have some alignment kinks to work out.Patrick Edwards' glue seems to be the go-to product. I'll check it out.I've built an Ansel Adams view camera, two beds with head/foot boards, my son's school desk, one cabinet (a Scott Gibson inspired design, from FWW #152), various tables, and an assortment of mirrors and picture frames. Furniture is fun, but the view camera and drums have been the most rewarding. Inlay decoration will be the next technical challenge to achieve.Drums have also pushed my skill level with finishing. Minwax wipe on poly is so dang easy, but I'm learning to use lacquer from a rattle can. My test mule is a quarter sawn cherry snare shell, it already has 2 coats of sealer and 9 coats of lacquer. Time to shine it up!Cheers,Seth
Good stuff Seth. The only drum I have to my credit was for an open back banjo. I had a ball making it with 13 lamination and the outer band done in birdseye maple. It was nice. Long time ago.
Whiteside bits are just up the road from me. I went for a look at the production a few years back and they wer so nice to me I have not bought a bit other than WS for years. They are good quality and I would recommend them to others.
later
dan
Dan,Wow, a banjo! Hats off to you, brother, that's impressive. Collectively, there are probably enough musicians here to form a Knots frog band. Auditions are waived if you made your own instrument...Cheers,Seth
Seth,You make is sound sooooo easy! I guess as they say, practice makes perfect.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,If you have some scraps laying around (and are really, really bored) try doing a dry run. 8 staves, each stave 3" wide, 22.5 degree angle. (If the staves are narrower/wider or the angles are 23/24 degrees, no problem - it's for fun.)Tape it up, circle it up - wiggly, but not so bad. Mock a glue up, throw a band clamp on it. When you're done, burn the staves as a sacrifice to the drum gods - they need their fill. Now you have a new method of work to file away in the mental database, ready for when you need it.Cheers,Seth
Seth,Sounds like a fun ritual. Can you see me doing this on a webcam with people wondering what the heck I'm doing? If I'm not mistaken, your trick for getting a perfect 22.5 degree bevel is by using a router bit, right? Do you need to round the inside of the drum?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi, Chris,I figured for this little exercise (web cam conveniently broken!), you'd probably run them on the table saw, and close enough was good enough. But, why not, go big the first time! 16 staves, 11.25 degree angle, 2.78" final stave width (makes a shell 14 1/8" dia, measured outside to outside). Stave length is 4-6". Turn the shell to 13 7/8" final diameter.Yep, I like the router table method. Chamfer bits are easily available, though a 9 chamfer degree bit has been elusive for a 20 sided shell. My work around might be to shim the router over and still use the 11.25 degree bit. (9 degree dovetail bits exist, they're usually 3/8" cutting length, too short for my needs.)Yes, I turn the inside of the shell, which requires the same jig, but some other parts. Picture attached, this is my first generation drum rig. But, you get the idea. The shell pictured is a 14 x 5.5 x 3/8 ash snare. My usual final wall thickness is 3/8", but there is no rule for thickness. I've seen shells as thin as 1/4" and as thick as 1.5". Many commercial drums run 1/4"-1/2".Is inside turning required? The wood police will not arrest you if you don't. However, for Western rock/jazz drums, yes, otherwise, people will wonder why the drum doesn't look like its usual self. There is still the matter of bearing edges, which are chamfers that run the circumference of both the top and bottom edges. The drum head touches the shell on the bearing edges. The edges can be any number of configurations, from sharp, double 45 degree bevels to very smooth rounded over. A snare drum gets two snare beds, each about 6" long by 3/32" deep, 180 degrees apart. This is a relief area that the snare side head conforms in to, and helps stop the snare wires from uncontrolled buzzing. I have a home made jig that I use to cut the beds.Cheers,Seth
Seth,I thought about birdsmouth joinery router bits for the edges, but I don't know if they're available at the right angle, or long enough for your purposes. I'd bet that you could have one made for you.Very innovative jig for "turning" the inside of the drum. Your work fascinates me.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,Good thought. There have been a couple guys on the drum forums who have used a bird's mouth bit, and successfully, too. One enterprising sort used cove/roundover. The issue seems to be a greater difficulty in keeping the shell a round shape. Conventional angles seem to be easier in this regard.The drum forum is an interesting community, very wild west in nature. The number of jigs 'n rigs I've seen over the last couple of years don't fit the conventions of woodworking like we see in FWW. One guy, to fashion the beveled edges of the drum shell, used closet door wheels as guides and a power drill anchored somehow to the bench. It took him a looooong time to sand the edges, but he got it.Staining a figured maple shell bright red and spraying on silver flake is normal for a drummer. For a fine wood worker, that would be revolting. I love that drums are forcing me to broaden the boundaries of normal, and that bleeds to methods of work, too.Cheers,Seth
"Just a thought: PVA glues have not been used for that long (no idea how long though), yet you are already getting pieces of furniture that need repair. Do you think that these repairs are needed because of poor craftsmanship or abuse rather than glue failing?"
Chris - Poly vinyl acetate glues have been in widespread use since the late 1930's, I think. Certainly it had all but replaced hide glue except for very specialized applications by the 1950's.
I'm afraid your question is way too general for a good answer. If someone throws a headboard down the stairs, I'd have a hard time attributing a glue joint failure to poor craftmanship.
However, there's one thing I have observed over quite a few repairs. I rarely have to repair a mortise and tenon joint, even on a chair which gets the most abuse of almost any furniture form. And I've never repaired a M&T joint that's been pinned. Part of that is that I don't work on much colonial stuff - I couldn't afford the liability insurance necessary to do so.
However, I do repair a great deal of doweled joints. It seems that these fail very, very often. The youngest doweled joint that I've had to repair was only 8 years old. My guess is that a dowel just has insufficient face grain to form an effective bond with the face grain on the side of the hole. Generally, I simply replace the existing dowels with larger ones and put it back together the way it came apart, but for someone that has a sentimental piece that they are willing to spend a little money on, I use a loose tenon in place of the dowels, and pin both sides of the joint from the interior. So far, no issues with that method.
David,I had no idea that PVAs have been in use for such a long time. The same goes with a lot of other things, such as CDs.I guess that my question should have been more along the lines of "If the proper joint is chosen and well executed, and the finished piece taken care of will a PVA glue endure?"Your tales of dowels, tenons, and pegged tenons is music to my ears. It did occur to me, however, that perhaps the rookie woodworker made the dowel joints and made an error in the machining/gluing/assembly process whereas whoever made the M&Ts is more versed in woodworking and executing that joint better. Food for though.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Handsome drums!When you use that jig, it appears that you run it "Edison drum record" style as opposed to typewriter (down and back). Is that correct? If "Edison", is that out of habit or to minimize possible break out?
Also, in what increments do you drop the bit to mill to final?Thanks,Boiler
ALL,Great Thread! Absolutely fascinating! Congrats to all of the posters. The part on glues was good, but drums are even better. I think it was Hamelech who said that doing drums let him spread his wings and do things that "fine woodworkers" don't do. Three cheers for him. It's great do see folks testing the edges of the envelope. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi, Mel,Thanks for the kind words. Lurking out there are other crafted treasures that aren't furniture, and they should be coaxed into the light of day. The methods of work are usually as interesting as the final piece itself.Cheers,Seth
Seth,
I like the way you think. I have posted photos of woodburning, German peasant painting, bowls carved with a chainsaw, carved eagles, a five story tall doll house, and more. Mostly I do furniture and woodcarving, but I like to spread my wings. We have had some discussions in the past on what we would like to see FWW expand their vision to. I have suggested many forms of woodwork: boats, guns, musical instruments, wooden sculpture, primitive wood decorations, and hand painted furniture. In other words, look for outstanding and creative woodwork, regardless of the application, rather than narrow things down to furniture. FWW is not much interested in spreading out too far from what they have found that "works". IMHO they do a great job at traditional fine woodworking. That shouldn't hold folks back on Knots. You got things going with your drums. We could start a thread in which folks put up photos of woodwork they have done which is not "traditional fine woodworking." and see what happens. Danmart makes great carved gunstocks, as well as phenomenal Windsor Chairs, a banjo, etc. Others have made "miniatures". I am sure we have luthiers here. Would you be interested to see if we could get such a thread going?
Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
You bet!I've opined on that very subject before, that fine wood working constitutes more than just furniture. To stave off (ha!) that unresolvable complain-a-palooza, starting a "If it's wood, it's good!" thread would be just the ticket.Perhaps the gallery? Can you suggest a catchy title? Here are mine."Show Me No Furniture"
"Why'ja make that?"
"Sittin', shootin', or strummin'"
"A banjo, a drum and a gunstock walk into a bar..."
"Wood - the other building material."
"Saturday Night Brag Racing"Cheers,Seth
Seth,
I need a little time to get some photos together. THen I'll start such a thread here in General Discussion. Let's see if anyone else is interested in joining in the fun. It could be revolutionary, or it could fall flat on its face. (just like my projects :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Seth,
OK, I started the thread on non traditional woodworking projects under the General Discussion folder. I hope you post a response with some of your drums and other stuff. Talk some of your buddies into joining in.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Saw it this morning, and yes, I've hopped on. Thanks for starting the new thread!Cheers,Seth
Hi, Boilerbay,Thanks for the kind words. Yes, like Edison, not like typewriter. Although, there's no issue with doing typewriter. In some respects, the cut is smoother using typewriter style, because it's the 'normal' motion of a router. What you're left with is many, many facets, as opposed to a turned cylinder. More sanding would be needed, in that case.I take 3-5 cuts until I hit final, so 1/32" or so of depth per cutting cycle. 1/32" cut removes 1/16" of total diameter, so the shell shrinks pretty quickly.The bit can be very grabby in this configuration; consider it a tool catch as on a lathe. Small bites are very much preferred to big bites.Drum sizes are nominal, like 2 x 4 really means 1.5 x 3.5. Drums are typically 1/8" undersized, a 14" is really 13 7/8". I build my rough blanks to 14 1/8" diameter, measured from outside flat to opposite outside flat, as opposed to peak-to-peak. I then mark limit lines on the edges of the shell to show where the cutting should stop, just a hair bigger than 13 7/8".Another measuring method - 13.875 x pi = 43.58" I use a flexible tape to measure my progress, and I measure the left, center and right of the shell. This lets me "see" if I have any taper, and I can correct for that.OK, if you've hung tough with the thread so far, you're ready for my turn table jig, attched. Can you guess the two purposes of this jig? The pictures show a story, but not the 'why'. The second purpose is not shown at all, you'll have to think it over.I'll let people squirm for a bit, then I'll reveal....Cheers,Seth
1st use- inner and outer Rabbets for the metal rims? and the second..... something to do with cymbals or a electrical??
Thanks for the info and I'll wait for the answers.Boiler
Seth,I'd guess that the jig is for truing the top and bottom of the drum, and maybe also for milling the edge detail. Nice ball bearings!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Boilerbay,Nice guess. The drum head fits completely over the shell's edges, so no relief is needed on the shell body. The head has a metal glue ring, to which the drum head is actually glued into. The drum's shiny hoop has a recess that fits the diameter of the glue ring. The tension rods pass through holes in the shiny hoop to lugs that are screwed onto the drum's body, and the action of tightening the tension rods pulls the hoop down, which pushes on the glue ring, which then stretches the head.Chris, you're getting very warm.I use the turntable jig to true both edges of the drum shell. The 'why' is because the design of my mounting system needs the edges to be co-planer to each other.Using two wedges, I shim the shell until all staves are plumb to the turntable surface. Using hot melt glue, I squirt a length about 1-2" long where the shell contacts the table surface. I only need 4-5 squirts, I don't have to glue the whole circumference.After edging one side, I slice off the glue and flip the shell. I don't need the wedges any more, the newly cut edge is the reference. Cut the second edge, done.The second function of the jig is - shell height. I make my shells a bit taller than final height. I can reduce the shell height before or after milling, though I like to do it before.Snare drum shells are typically 3-4.5" tall for piccolo, 'normal' shells are 5-7", and deep snares exceed 7". I've not seen a conventional rock/jazz snare drum deeper than 8", because the standard basket that the drum sits in cannot be adjusted low enough to accommodate the drum's height. A specialty basket or leg system would need to be used.Also, a drum that deep is approaching tom territory, which are known for full, resonant, boomy sounds. Snares tend to be shallower, because a shorter, crack sound is desired.Cheers,Seth
Chris,
You really gotta watch what chemicals you put in your woodshop. So far, much of the conversation has been about T-9 Boeshield. But that is not the only one. I had one of those plug-in air fresheners in the shop to make the place smell a little less sweaty. But the chemicals in the air freshener kept the glue from drying, and also caused problems with some of the finishes drying properly. Also, I believe it cause some of my wood to warp more than it ordinarily would have. One really must be careful.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Are you being completely truthful about air fresheners? If your workshop smells of sweat, you need to be creating more aromatic sawdust. THAT is what a workshop should smell like.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Am I being completely truthful about air fresheners?Bill Clinton is one of my heroes.Any other questions? :-)Mel
PS - When people start talking about the chemical makeup of Boeshield T-9, I feel it is OK for me to get a little silly too.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Any other questions? :-)"What type of furniture does this Bill Clinton guy make?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I had some troubles with the Titebond Hide glue a ways back. My friend told me to trash it and get some liquid hide in a bottle from a very reliable source- Patrick Edwards in California. I have seen Pat work and his stuff is top notch. He uses the glue he makes and sells. He makes it and dates it. Bottom line.
I use hot hide and the liquid hide from Patrick. No problems. Brian Boggs told me about Patrick and its been a nice glue to use. The cold hide/liquid hide sets up slowly and allows much more set up time when building chairs. I need the time.
W. Patrick Edwards
American School of French Marquetry
3815 Utah Street
San Diego, CA 92104
(619) 298-0864
http://www.WPatrickEdwards.com
A source of materials and tools as well as
marquetry instruction
Give him a look.
Thanks for the post, what a wealth of resources of information in his website! I had no idea that was in San Diego!
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
If you get a chance to link up with Pat you will get a wealth of working knowledge just talking to Pat. He knows his stuff and he's very generous with information if you ask for help.
Good Luck
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