Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 19, 2006 01:38pm | #1

   Yes, within reason of course since hide glue or other glues except epoxy are not designed for gap filling.  But that is one of the principal virtues of hide glue that the new glue will reactivate the old.  PVA won't work doing this--the new glue must have direct wood surface to bond. 

2. 
   AdamCherubini | Nov 20, 2006 12:58am | #2

   I'm not as confident as Steve. I'd feel more confident if the joint were heated first and/or hot glue was applied. When people talk about new hide glue in old joints, I think they are thinking the two glues rebond and become one ( a real chemical cross linked bond). I think shellac does this. With liquid glue, you are relying on its moisture to disslove the old glue in the time the glue allows (open time/pot life).

   So I think you'd be better off with hot glue for your repair. It'll do a better job bonding to the old glue and its stronger.

   And one clarification- Hide glue is absolutely a gap filling glue, just like epoxy. In fact, maintaining its bond line is important to developing full bond strength (just like epoxy).

   Good luck with the repair,

   Adam

1. 
   nazard | Nov 20, 2006 01:55am | #3

   I'll second Adam's advice: use hot glue if possible and heat the previously glued area AND the fresh surface prior to glue-up.  We used hot hide in my organ shop on a daily basis and always heated first in situations like yours.  If you have not previously worked with hot hide you may want to google up some info or post back here for additional advice.  Good luck!

2. 
   JeffHeath | Nov 20, 2006 06:11pm | #5

   Hey, Adam:

   Along the lines of this discussion, I've got a question for you regarding the topic of this discussion.  I'm presently (finally!) building a large, wall mounted tool box for my hand tools in my shop.  In the spirit of the tools being contained, I'm doing it all by hand. (And, for a nice change, enjoying myself thoroughly!)  Also, in the spirit..., I've decided to use hide glue for the dovetails, which there are many.  I wanted the extra open time.  Believe it or not, this is my first time using hide glue.  I bought a small brown bottle from Woodcraft, and when I opened it Saturday, it was almost in solid form.  Not a liquid at all.  Is this normal?  Do I need to heat it to get it out of heavy paste form?  Is this bottle bad, and should it be returned??  I'm 1 1/2 hours from the nearest store, so I hope not.  Your help and knowledge is appreciated, as always.

   Jeff

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Nov 20, 2006 09:11pm | #7

   Hey brother Jeff,

   Sorry to say I don't know the answer.  I really have limited experience with bottles of glue.  My knee jerk is to dump that glue in a pot and heat it up. 

   I'm pretty sure liquid glue is just regular glue plus some form of salt.  If for some reason there isn't enough salt, the glue may kick at room temperature.  So you could try heating it up.  I'm not sure about glue going "bad".  My glue molds.  After its been heated too many times its seems to get rubbery. 

   I feel we've been misled a little by the instrument makers and their $90 copper glue pots.  A hanging tool chest really isn't a guitar.  So for you, Jeff, put a glass of water in the microwave for one minute, then drop the whole bottle into it when it comes out.  It should soften in a couple minutes. 

   For the rest of you, buy a cast iron glue pot at a flea market for less than $20.  Its surprising how many of these are around.  Antique shops sometimes have them with a fresh coat of spray paint and plastic flowers in them.  Just make sure both pots still hold water.  Put that pot on a $15 electric burner available at your local Walmart and you'll have a great hot hide set-up.

   Adam

1. 
   munchkin1 | Nov 20, 2006 09:55pm | #8

   Ah? the knowledge and wisdom of the masters, he who has been there has experienced ~~failer and susses likewise--heat every thing and then add the necter the bond is better than marrige  please don't let her see this     stick to it like glue~~46yrs  of happy bliss  well I to don't know it all

2. 
   JeffHeath | Nov 20, 2006 10:32pm | #9

   Thanks Adam

   This stuff is like a rubbery glob, right inside the bottle!  I'll try some hot water, and see what happens.  I did glue two pieces of scrap together with it, just to see, and they are, well.........stuck together, so it must be ok.  I'll try and not overthink it.

   Jeff

3. 
   forestgirl | Nov 21, 2006 04:24am | #10

   Seems a $4 slow-cooker from Goodwill does a bang-up job too.  Lot's of options besides the patented glue pot.  I bought one at an auction a couple years ago for $15 and turned right around and sold it on eBay for $75.  Knew I didn't need it to do the job.  (Actually the 2nd one to come along in about 5 years at that bargain price!)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Nov 21, 2006 04:52am | #11

   I like traditional stuff, no doubt. But in this case, when working with unaltered hot hide glue, I prefer the cast iron pot(s). I don't prefer to heat my glue next to my bench. I throw shavings off the left end, keep my tools off the right, my wood rack is behind me. So I keep my glue many steps away from the work. When I need it, I bring the whole pot. The cast iron holds the heat long enough to allow me to do whatever I need to before the glue thickens. I find this a wee bit more than the baby food jars in coffee cans, baby milk warmers or crock pots. I certainly would do any of those before buying a $90 glue pot. I've heated glue in the microwave before (heated wood to be bent in there too!). But I think if you can find one inexpensively, the cast iron pot holds an advantage for people who may find themselves needing to bring glue to the job.Adam

2. 
   VeriestTyro | Nov 21, 2006 05:42pm | #15

   A lot of suppliers put the bottled stuff on the shelf and don't watch the expiration date which is on the bottle (you may have to look to find it, but on Franklin it's there, on Patrick Edward's Old Brown Glue it will be handwritten plainly).

   Sounds like you have a bottle that is past it's expiration date.

3. 
   samuelj | Nov 20, 2006 04:07am | #4

   I have enjoyed using hide glue as well--I had been deterred by the price of a glue pot, but read in someone's book that an old coffee maker keeps water about the same temp as a $90 glue pot--I have a Mr. Coffee and a tin cup of hot glue sits in the water while I work. Give it a try.

   Sam

4. 
   forestgirl | Nov 20, 2006 07:44pm | #6

   Hide glued joints are easy to repair, but don't just slop glue over the old glue!  Here's a furniture repair article for you, by Jeff Jewitt, that explains hide glue repairs.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 
   

5. 
   user-184360 | Nov 21, 2006 07:14am | #12

   Hi:

   I worked in technical sales and marketing for a old time mfgr of hide glue and can tell you that if the glue is handled correctly you will not find anything stronger. Don't fall into the mistake of over cooking it or you will degrade it. A high grade glue, (high gram strength glue) develops an initial tack and sets very fast.  As you degrade it with excessive heat, it develops an initial tack at a slower rate and sets slower. Some people purchase a high grade glue and it sets before they get the two pieces together. They find that by boiling it it degrades to a point where they can practically work with it. Unfortunately, if you boil it too long, it degrades to a point where it will never develop an initial tack and will never completely set. Bonds produced will never be satisfactory. Try and maintain a temperature of 130 to 145 degrees in your glue pot as the safest temp. The higher you go the faster it degrades. When your wife makes a good stew, she boils it for many hours and you enjoy it. don"t apply the same reasoning to hide glue, however.

   When you apply glue at the right temp. it develops a tack as it cools. During this tack development time you must put the two pieces of wood together. As time goes by the glue sets. If you make the joint after the glue sets (gels) it will never produce a satisfactory bond so put the pieces together as quickly as possible. Liguid glue has a chemical gel depressant that enables you to use it at room temp and with longer open times but it requires a longer clamping time. I hope this helps

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Nov 21, 2006 05:13pm | #14

   While I'm sure what you say is true, the question to its extent is important.  Said plainly, for cabinetry, temperature and gram strength don't seem to mean much.  I've heated and used glue as our ancestors did, on an open hearth while a meal was being prepared.  I may have moved it once or twice away from the fire or embers, added water a couple times....  It worked fine.  Hot hide glue is pretty forgiving.  I encourage people to use it.  I don't really think candy thermometers are neccessary.

   One caveat, in traditional joinery, glue is never used as the primary joint for any structural application.  The glue keeps the pins and tails together, but the pins and tails carry the load. The glue keeps in the tenon in the mortise, but the mortise and tenon provide the joint strength.

   So, I think you are technically correct.  And if guys are using hide glue for biscuit joinery say, it may not work- dunno.  But for traditional cabinetry, I don't think it importnat to be very careful with one's glue.

   Adam

6. 
   27ford | Nov 21, 2006 04:59pm | #13

   I had the same problem with trying to figure out how to beat the cost of the electric glue pot and found that a babby bottle warmer worked out.  I put a thermometer in it to check the temp setting and marked it on the dial and when i'm ready to use it just put water in it and turn it on with my babby food jar filled with glue and wait until it gets hot.  And the bottle warmer only cost 10-15 bucks, and they are prettier than the old glue pots.