Replies

1. 
   ChasStanford | Mar 09, 2004 08:20pm | #1

   All pros and no con as far as I'm concerned.  Wouldn't use anything else.

   It has everything going for it - strength, creep resistance, reversibility. 

   All the great masterpieces were constructed with it.  Good enough for me. 

1. 
   TomMGTC | Mar 09, 2004 08:34pm | #2

   How do you handle complex glue ups like a large carcase for a chest of drawers. Do you use urea to extend the open time. I've been using franklin's liquid hide glue more and more but for a complex assembly I am still using good ole elmers white.  Tom

   Douglasville, GA

1. 
   OneofmanyBobs | Mar 09, 2004 09:09pm | #5

   Franklins is terrible.  They use way too much crud to make it stay liquid.  Shelf life is very short.  They claim otherwise, but I think its worthless.  You just have to sequence assembly so that things get glued within the working time of the hide glue.  Keep the room hot and use heat lamps if you must have longer open time.  Urea or salt works.  I use a little in the winter if I can't get the shop hot enough.  If you add as much as they do in Franklins, the stuff never sets.  Any reasonable amounts still only give you 30 seconds.

2. 
   ChasStanford | Mar 09, 2004 09:38pm | #6

   Pretty much how this guy handles it:

   http://www.bearmeadow.com/build/materials/glue/html/glue-measure.html

   I stumbled across this a while back and post it when a question comes up about hide glue.  I had pretty much arrived at some of the same conclusions through reading and asking others.

   I have to admit that I've used the cold stuff without any problems.  You must be cognizant of the date on the bottle.  I don't use it if it's within two months of the expiration date.  It takes a while to cure, but I don't have any problem with that.  I rarely push a glue-up.  When it's in the clamps it will sit undisturbed a minimum of a day and usually longer.  There always seems like there is something else to do - not much down time for me. 

1. 
   TomMGTC | Mar 09, 2004 09:49pm | #7

   Thanks for the link, very helpful. I have had good luck with franklins so far. I rarely have a bottle of glue around long enough to reach the expiration date.Tom

   Douglasville, GA

1. 
   ChasStanford | Mar 09, 2004 09:52pm | #8

   I really don't think there's anything wrong with the Franklin product if you watch the expiration date.  It's plenty strong for a project made with well-fitted joints.

   Edited 3/9/2004 4:34 pm ET by CHASSTANFORD

2. 
   jackplane | Mar 09, 2004 08:38pm | #3

   The smell of real hide glue is a major drawback; I can still remember the stench yaers ago from rabbit skin glue.In restoration work, it's probably unsurpassed, and as mentioned repairs are reversible.

1. 
   Biscardi | Mar 09, 2004 09:08pm | #4

   It is important to not to try to use hide glue in a cold shop.

   Frank

3. 
   RMillard | Mar 10, 2004 04:49am | #9

   Below is a posting I put in a few weeks ago, that gives my reasons for using hide glue.It was written in response to a inquiry about my dislike of yellow glue. On the issue of the liquid hide glue, I like the stuff and use it often ( I used it today in fact). It has never failed me. There is another liquid hide glue sold under the name of old brown glue at http://www.wpatrickedwards.com, I've found this also, to be an excellent glue.

   I use hide glue, both the liquid and hot varieties, almost exclusively. I have several reasons for favoring hide glue. First is its adaptability, it can be used for rubbed joints, veneering, gluing fabric or leather writing surfaces, making flexible glue lines with the addition of glycerin ( such as the muslin reinforcement of highboy hoods, I've personally never done this ), extended set time glue, with the addition of urea, and last but not least extremely strong rigid glue joints. Another reason, is hide glue's centuries old, proven track record, which can't be matched by any modern glue. While I'll admit this is probably not a big deal, I like to know that the glue I use will last for not only my lifetime, but many lifetimes. Last, is its easy of reparability. Hide glue will bond quite nicely to itself, so a failed joint is easy to repair. This may sound less than inspiring, but I believe this is the reason that so many antiques survive, since all joints will at some point fail, being able to easily re-glue and end up with a strong joint is a real plus. I don't believe any modern glue has all or even most of these attributes.

   Now that I have sung the praises of hide glue, here are its drawbacks. Hot hide glue gels so quickly that it can be a challenge to glue up any but the simplest project. The addition of urea will slow the gel time down, but it does have a small effect on the strength . Hot hide glue has to mixed fresh nearly every day, although I keep mine for up to 3 days in cool weather. It has a smell that isn't exactly appealing.

   Liquid hide glue has to be fresh ( bottles are marked with an expiration date) or it will produce poor bonds. It is not as strong as hot hide glue, at least not initially, because the gel depressants, cause it to remain somewhat gummy for days. I too has a characteristic odor, that isn't pleasant .

   I use white glue to make up the inlay bandings that are part of my work, simply for its easy of use and long open time. In the finished piece hide glue will be used to adhere the inlays. I would also use white glue if I were making things such as kitchen cabinets, entertainment centers and other items that probably won't have a long service life, where hide glues time tested durability wouldn't be an advantage.

   I have gotten good results with yellow glue, but I have also had poor results. In fact my only failed joint was done with yellow glue ( Tite Bond II) The poor results were most likely from using old glue, but even fresh glue seemed to be less rigid than white glue, and certainly no where near that of hide glue. The failed joint was done with a fresh bottle of glue ( free sample at a woodworking show), so that of course took Tite Bond II off my list.

   Rob Millard

1. 
   OneofmanyBobs | Mar 10, 2004 03:31pm | #10

   TiteBond II is water resistant.  Definitely softer than Titebond I.  Main reason to use it is if the water resistance is desirable.  If the glue has been frozen it doesn't work as well.  If frozen a few times, doesn't work at all.

   I've had fresh liquid hide glue fail. If the humidity is high and the temperatures cool, it can take days to dry.  Never had that problem with hot glue.  Also, the liquid stuff rehydrates much easier than hot hide glue.  Can fail under hot humid conditions.  It isn't hard to make up hot glue.  It's strong, rigid, doesn't creep.  You can make it strong or weak, hard or flexible, extend the setting time, even make it waterproof.  Good stuff.  The liquid version, wouldn't ever touch it again.

1. 
   RMillard | Mar 10, 2004 03:50pm | #11

   To each, his own. I doubt I have ever changed anyones mind on yellow glue, of which I have the same feelings you have of liquid hide glue.

   I've made dozens of complicated pieces using both hot and liquid hide glue, and will continue to do so. Liquid hide glue requires tightly fitting joints, because the glue has no gap filling properties, and will in thick sections, remain gummy for quite some time.

   Rob Millard

2. 
   forestgirl | Mar 10, 2004 07:39pm | #12

   I've been corresponding with Dwain at bearmeadow.com (see link in #7 above).  He has given me permission to quote from one of his emails, since he doesn't have time to register, post and keep up with this discussion:

   Several writers comment on the bad smell of hide glue. That is a sign of glue gone bad. Any hide glue that doesn't smell fresh should be dumped. You can keep it indefinitely by freezing. I keep small amounts, enough for one dulcimer, for weeks and months in the fridge.

   Regarding Franklin's Liquid hide glue, there is widespread disdain for it in the luthier community--it is thought to be unreliable, no matter what the expiration date says.

   In the page that was linked to in my website, mixtures are given for hideglue. All these have an open time of 15 minutes, more or less. I do a single-handed complex glue up of sides, tailblock, peghead and back. Very tricky, getting all the members in exact alignment. The open time of hide glue gives me no problems.http://www.bearmeadow.com/build/materials/glue/html/glue-measure.html

   OK, I threw the link in just above.  See ya.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 22, 2008 04:36am | #15

   Here is an alternative liquid hide glue. 

   Patrick Edwards, the maker, does some incredible marquetry with it.  This link goes to his page about the glue, take the link to the pages about his work.  http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/gluepage.htm

    

2. 
   slo | Feb 22, 2008 07:46pm | #18

   FG is that link still good it does not work for me?

1. 
   user-83153 | Feb 22, 2008 08:22pm | #19

   It just worked for me.

2. 
   forestgirl | Feb 23, 2008 12:52am | #24

   It worked for me, try again?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

4. 
   joinerswork | Mar 11, 2004 01:56am | #13

   jr,

   I use hide glue in restoration work, and years ago I worked in a shop that used hot hide glue for nearly all their assembly.  We each kept a pot going all the time, and added water and or glue daily as needed.  I kinda like the smell (to each his own ).  The only shortcoming I've seen with it is the flip side of what everyone says about its creep resistance--It dries brittle,  and a less than perfect joint will usually break under a sharp blow.  It's normally not a problem to pop a glueblock off an old piece, or open up a glue line just by hitting it a sharp lick.   I suspect that this brittleness increases with age, but as Mr Millard has pointed out, we don't know what 200 yr old Elmer's will be like.

   It's very convenient to be able to reglue a piece put together with hide glue and to know that what you're using is perfectly compatable with what was there originally.

   Regards,

   Ray

1. 
   danmart | Feb 22, 2008 02:29am | #14

   Ray

   What is your source for hot hide glue? Do you use a gram strength for common work??

   Looking for a new source. I had a 5lb bag but it seems like it has gone bad just sitting dry??

   Its time to replenish.

   Dan

1. 
   joinerswork | Feb 22, 2008 06:41pm | #17

   Dan,

   Last couple batches I got from Bjorn Industries (704)-364-1186, it is their #135 Grade, which is what he recommended for furniture repairs.  I believe he said it gives a bit longer "open" time for assembly.

   Why do you suspect yours has gone bad?  Did it get wet?  Mine is stored in a zip-lock bag.

   Ray

1. 
   user-83153 | Feb 22, 2008 08:25pm | #20

   Ray,

   The higher the gram strength number the stronger the bond is and the less open time it will have.

   Do you refrigerate yours or just keep it in the ziploc?

                     Rob

1. 
   joinerswork | Feb 22, 2008 09:03pm | #21

   Rob,

   The dry granules I keep at room temp, in the ziplock.

   Ray

2. 
   9619 | Feb 23, 2008 12:47am | #22

   Ray,
   As has often been discussed on Knots, some woodworkers talk to their wood. Dan thinks he has been having trouble with his stored hide glue. You asked how he knows he has a problem. I think he should talk to the glue -- try to get a feel for what it wants, and how it can best be used. We tent to treat wood with great respect, but we really tend to shortchange glue. I recommend that Dan spend more time talking to the glue.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

3. 
   saschafer | Feb 23, 2008 12:49am | #23

   Mel,

   I've think you may have inadvertently hit upon some true wisdom: Rather than talking to our glue, we need to be sniffing our glue.

   -Steve

    

4. 
   9619 | Feb 23, 2008 03:30am | #25

   Steve,
   I have the feeling you have been using solvents without opening your windows.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

5. 
   saschafer | Feb 23, 2008 04:00am | #26

   You're supposed to open the window?

   -Steve

    

6. 
   flairwoodworks | Feb 24, 2008 05:19am | #29

   Mel,

   Isn't that why high school shop class was so popular?  I remember one time when someone thought it would be a good experiment to see  how flamable some finishes were.Chris @ flairwoodworks

    - Success is not the key to happines.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

7. 
   9619 | Feb 24, 2008 07:29am | #30

   Chis,
   "Isn't that why high school shop class was so popular?"You pay me a great compliment - assuming that I can remember high school. I remember that I went to high school. I remember the teachers were all women dressed in black and white costumes. I remember getting rapped across the knuckles and the back of the head with rulers. I remember a nun we called "Big Al". I remember reading Mad Magazine. But I don't remember Cathedral High School having a shop class. Darn. That would have been interesting --- Learning woodwork from a nun.
   Cheers,
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

2. 
   danmart | Feb 23, 2008 03:42pm | #27

   Ray

   For some strange reason I put this granular hide glue from Mohawk(a while back) in a tight container and forgot where I put it. I took it out the other day and soaked it in a small soup can. As usual, I filled the can up about a half inch with crystals and covered it with water or just a little above. Hours later, it was a bit like a round hockey puck-- didn't desolve quiet that much.

   I'm just guessing but maybe its too old??

   dan

1. 
   joinerswork | Feb 23, 2008 11:22pm | #28

   dan,

   I dunno.  Did you heat it up to see if it went to liquid?  I never soak the granules, just cover with water, and put the heat to it.  As they used to say at Virginia Craftsman, "that's how we always did it before"  (before I  ever read that it should be soaked overnite).

5. 
   willy | Feb 22, 2008 04:37am | #16

   Used hide-glue in restoring four chairs about 100 years old. Bought the glue from Lee Valley - - keep it in a sealed container. When you make a batch, put the remainder in a sealed container in the fridge. Easy to make, easy to use and can be "unglued" if things go wrong.