Looking around the internet and reading several step by step uses and preparation accounts, I notice quite a bit of variation when discussing hide glue mixing and heating.
Now I know in the 18th century, glue was disolved in a pot and it was kept over a fire for heat purposes. They didn’t have a digital thermometer and they got good results. At least the pieces that survive look well joined and glued.
In my case I heat one pan/pot of water on an electric heating coil. I can control the temperature fairly well. In the heated water source, I place another soup can or pyrex beaker with the glue I have prepared.
In most cases I have read the glue must be heated to 140-160 range. In other accounts, users say the glue should not go above 155.
The confusion in my tests recently comes in when measuring the heat of my water source and the temperature of the glue mix?? To maintain 140-145 in the glue mix, I have to keep the water in the heater pot a bit hotter. I might add, I don’t keep a lid on the glue pot.
I would like to hear from other hide glue users what temp you keep the glue at for best glue time and results. I use the 192 gram strength with rain water or water from a bottle(no chlorine).
Some of the negative results:
My glue has been “shinning over” rather quickly so I think I am getting too hot??
When the glue is too thick, it seems to gel up rather quickly?? Is this viscosity or too much heat or both?
I am not discouraged entirely, I would like to zero in on some techniques that improve the use of hide glue.
Like Rob M. – I like to “size the surfaces with a thin film of hide glue and let it dry. I find this very important when glueing legs in sockets on windsor chairs. Most of the pine exposed in the tapered socket is end grain. Sealing the endgrain keeps the glue I swirl around the leg tenon from soaking in the pine end grain. I think this makes sense?? I haven’t had failures in the seat to leg joints??
Like to hear from others about the heat and glue.
dan
Replies
I ain't no afficiando of hide glue, but methinks on the oldtools listserve archive yu may find the answer, and it may be centricated on the use of a "hot pot" and an accurate thermometer.
good luck
cowtown eric
in Calgary
I think the 'don't go over 145' idea is a little unrealistic. I've brought the glue to as high as 160 and had no issues at all with it.
However, everything I've seen says 180 is the magic do not cross number and you definitely don't want to boil it... Too high and you are gonna mess up the protein structure of the glue. It's not gonna work anymore.
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
I don't think there's a magic temperature per se. Rather, it's a (somewhat complicated) exponential combination of time and temperature. Imagine cooking an egg (which is the same basic principle--protein denaturation). You can either cook it at a lower temperature for a longer time, or a higher temperature for a shorter time.
So, for glue, with any given temperature, there is a "safe" amount of time that won't overcook the glue, but that time gets shorter and shorter as the temperature gets higher and higher. Below a certain minimum threshold temperature (around 140°F for most proteins), the reaction is so slow that you can pretty much assume that it stops--it would take a week or more to overcook the glue. Above a maximum threshold, the reaction goes so fast that you can't control it. In between, you have some latitude, but the glue won't last indefinitely.
-Steve
Take a look at our article from the latest issue of Fine Woodworking. It may cover many of your questions.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Materials/MaterialsPDF.aspx?id=30230
David Heim
Managing Editor
FineWoodworking.Com
Take a look a these two links:
http://chairnotes.blogspot.com/2007/02/why-hide-glue.html
http://chairnotes.blogspot.com/2007/02/hide-glue-1-2-3.html
As described in the links above the Rival Crockpot on the lowest setting works very well at keeping the glue at the correct temperature. And you can add urea to extend the working time of the glue. The air temperature of the room you're working in also has an effect on the glue's open time.
Lefky
Lefky
Peter is a fine craftsman and like Curtis Buchanan, very focused on his craft. I met Peter at CW when he did the windsor highchair with CB and David Sawyer. If you are looking at learning about windsors, you can not go wrong with any of these individuals.
Glue. Great stuff. I am going to contact the guy that Peter uses. He works here in North Carolina so it should be easy. I was thinking of taking a ride down to the Charlotte area and visiting some friends and taking a look at the hide glue production process. I guess I have to get with the whole "gram" learning curve. Strength and set up time benefits.
photo: a compass plane. useful shaping the seat.
Thanks for the info.
dan
dan,
I'm not scientiffically inclined, so will not go into whether 140 or 145 is the best temp. I'd been doing as you do, a small jar of glue in a saucepan of water, til a friend gave me a small cast iron double-boiler gluepot.
I like to see the glue lightly skin over, that tells me that it is thick enough. As the glue sits, and water evaporates out, it becomes necessary to add more water from time to time to maintain "spreadability". If the stuff doesn't skin, it is too watery for general use, in my experience. I like the watered down stuff for temporary or purposely weak glue-ups (making up a stack of veneers for cutting into a multi-colored inlay, for example).
At Va Craftsmen, we kept electric glue pots on the go all the time, adding add'l glue, or water as needed to keep enough on hand for whatever we were gluing up. Seems to me that hide glue is like vegetable soup, that the pot is better after it's been warmed up a couple times.
If you have to break the skin, like a skim of ice, to get to the glue, it is way too thick ;-)
Ray
Dan,
When I first started with hide glue, I used a hot plate with a pan of water and the glue in a jar placed in that water. I grew tired of this arrangement rather quickly and bought a dedicated glue pot. In the end the glue pot is more efficient as far as energy use (not a big concern) and it keeps a very steady temp. I measured it once at about 150 degrees. Like you said, the old timers, did not have the quality of glue we have nor the facility to hold a constant temperature, yet they did pretty well.
I don't keep a lid on my glue pot, and I get a little skin on it, if I let it sit unused for a few minutes at a time. If you are getting a thick skin, it might be that your glue is too thick. I'm continually adding water to maintain its consistency. If it is gelling quickly, it is almost certainly too thick, not too hot. Having said that, these conditions go hand in hand; the hotter the glue the faster the water will evaporate from it, making it thicker. I 'm also inclined to think it is too thick, since you are using the lower gram strength, which should gel a little more slowly than the 256 strength I use.
I've always mixed my glue with tap water that is straight from the city. I like the idea of rain water, I will have to try that.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Realizing what an old system this is, I can't believe that the fine points mentioned here in great detail matter very much. I've just used a hot water bath, which cools off too quiickly to over-heat the glue. I then get more hot water.
Tom
Does anybody use hide glue in a regular plastic glue bottle and heat it up in a microwave? I read this trick somewhere and wonder how well it works.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Realizing what an old system this is, I can't believe that the fine points mentioned here in great detail matter very much. I've just used a hot water bath, which cools off too quiickly to over-heat the glue. I then get more hot water.
Tom
That thought has crossed my mind but now as I am testing some of the upgraded hide glues with different gram strengths I think its worth doing a little experimenting. Making 192 more watery is not quite like using the lower gram strength in a syrup thickness. Its different.
The holding strength is going to be a long experiment but the set up characteristics are important for me right now. Having only tried 2 different hot glues from the granular family, I can tell you they are different. When you are gluing up the boxes like I have now(12 pins on each corner) you need some time. A fast tack could be a disaster if you are assembling it alone.
Like you said, this is something that was very unscientific and it worked really well as you know. I would just like to find out a few things and share my info if it proves to be worth a darn. I am currently waiting on some "old brown glue" from Pat Edwards. I've heard lots of good stuff on that and it seems so convenient its hard to resist. This is from a person who had bad experiences with the Franklin liguid hide.
Jury is out for now.
dan
Dan,
The Old Brown Glue is excellent; I used it to veneer a couple of light house clocks. It really was the only thing that would have worked in that situation, for the equipment I have.
I'm sure you have heard of adding urea to the glue to slow its gel time. This is what I do for the dovetails like you show in the photos. I go at the low end of the recommended amount of urea permissible (1 part urea to 10 parts glue). At first it will seem like this leaves the glue rubbery and weak, but in the thickness you have in a tight joint and given a longer cure time, it dries very rigid and strong. At one time I used liquid hide glue for this, and never had a problem, but its short shelf life was always a concern, and since I always have glue cooking, I thought why not just use the urea.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Thanks
I think I'll go with a little urea for the box. I just like the hot stuff.
dan
I'm curious as to what "bad experiences" you had with Franklin Hide glue? And have you used the "old brown glue" yet? From what I have read in the articles on testing glues there isn't much difference in the bottled hide glues as opposed to mixing and heating it yourself. I'm into furniture restoration and the main reason I use it is to make it easier for the next guy to do repairs. I put a bottle of fresh Franklins in some hot water before I use it. My brother makes Windsor Chairs (Jockswindsors.com) and he insists on his little glue pot but he does a lot of glueing. For the occasional wood hack like me I find the Franklins is just fine....Thanks for any replyJeff's Woodshop
Battle Ground, WA
>old brown glueIt has been a year or so since I did my empirical on the couch glue investigation using the popsicle sticks. I remember being disappointed with the Old Brown Blue.Not sure of all the reasons now but seems like were these: Way too expensive for hide glue, filmed over so open time questionable, not as strong as other less expensive bottled glues I tested.
Boy alot of people put alot of thought into this. I have a hold heat glue pot, with a copper linner. I bought this because it's made for glue. And I like being able to pull the liner out to take to my work.
But I just keep adding glue to it. If it's a little runny I add some glue, if it's a little thick I add some water.
It's plugged into an outlet controlled by the light switch. So when I'm in the shop the pots on. When I'm out, it's off. If I'm gone for a week and it gets alittle mold. I just scrap it off and let it go.
I've never worried about the glue, it's temp, the water to glue ratio, or how old it is. And I've never had a failure.
Splurge on the pot because it makes life easier. Contact Bess or Karen at the old mill (http://www.oldemill.com) she has the best prices and has all the inserts lids etc. She's the only one I've seen who keeps them all in stock. I haven't looked in awhile but I haven't seen anyone who has all the parts and the correct brushes but her.
Thanks for the inputs. I have worked with them extensively for dyes and finishing supplies. Just didn't think of them with glue. Gettin' old.
What gram strength have you used??
Does your pot have a temp adjustment feature or is it on or off type?
dan
I actually had no idea what gram strength it is. But the bag says 192 on it...
I just use the Hold Heet pot, plug it in and go.
192 is the gram strength and you are in luck. This is the one most suppliers recommend for general woodworking applications.
dan
Dan,
You're asking all the right questions, but I think there just aren't great answers. Glues require some skill to use properly just like any material. Stick with it. Keep playing with it and you'll be glad you did. I've cooked glue over an open fire in an 18t c hearth. I moved it around a little to get to the temperature I thought was best for it. Point is, you'll figure it out.
Here's something that may help though- the gram strength is really based on the molecular weight. And with the different molecular weights come different properties besides strength. Also, 192 is 192 today. Tomorrow it may be lower and lower as the molecules break into smaller pieces. I prefer 192 the second day.
Adam
And with the different molecular weights come different properties besides strength. Also, 192 is 192 today. Tomorrow it may be lower and lower as the molecules break into smaller pieces. I prefer 192 the second day.
This is something I heard at the CW/FWW conference this year. Like you, I attended the first session and got a look at the 2 instrument makers and listened to their advice on the hide glue and asked a few questions. I was surprised to hear they don't replenish their glue as often as I would have thought. Everybody from Mack Headley down to the newest apprentice is using the same pot of glue. With all those eyes and all of the experience they have with the glue, it seems simple to just add a little here, thicken up a little there or move it closer to the heat and so forth.
Like you suggest there is a learning curve. Oddly enough, I have been using hot hide for a good while but I think I can become smarter by going back and doing some experimenting. Its kind of like changing your approach to coloring wood a different way after you have done something one way for a long time. I am not ignoring earlier success with reckless abandon, I'm just curious about the qualities and differences in playing with the balancing act. Now I will establish fresh glue results in a few gram strengths - first day. It won't be any trouble to keep some records of the days after as well. Hey, I have a clock, heater, pot and .... time.
dan
I used hide glue (192 gram) for the first time, to glue up an end table last night. I made up a heat source from a small crock pot, using it as a double boiler. Made a wood lid with vent holes to keep the temp. range between 140 and 150 F using a digital thermometer.
Since this was my first use of hide glue (other than Patrick Edwards "Old Brown Glue), I put far more time into fitting and test assembly before the glue up. I also arranged all legs, stretchers, etc. logically before beginning.
To tell the truth, the glue up went far smoother, with better results than I've experienced with any other glue. However, I can't attribute this to the glue, or to the care I put into arranging components before the glue. The leftover glue was covered and placed in the freezer for next glue up. My initial impression was very positive, and left me wondering why I didn't take this step several years ago. Clean-up was much easier than any other glue--simply waiting for the glue to start to set-up and peeling off the squeeze out.
I'm hoping in this post, someone doesn't pull the rug out from under me, stating what I missed or what I did wrong! Gentle advice is appreciated, though.
T.Z.
TZ
Post results in the morning. After a day of dry time it should be great. My only frustration with hide has been too much to do and not enough time. I love the stuff and the ability to repair is unbeatable. Like others have said- when you assemble something like chairs that you know will need a repair down the road, its just not smart to ignore something like hide glue for its benefits.(note: I have heard the guys from the "institutes" talk about the correctly made chair that won't need glue repairs-- yea OK. When you look at a round tenon and consider how much of the contact surface of the mortise is end grain, I don't care how much "mechanical" trouble you go to- it will need a glue repair down the road. Why not make it easy on the next guy?? Try the hide glue and leave a note on the bottom of the seat: Hide Glue on all joints.
Somebody down the road will quietly say: Thanks for saving me a bunch of trouble amigo.
adios
Additionally, its fun to veneer with the stuff. Very forgiving actually. With the iron as a backup, its pretty easy to jump in there and practice with some cheap pieces. Once you have the timing and feel, you're in there.
After taking off clamps (left on overnight) I was more than pleased with the results. As mentioned in my first post, the glue squeeze-out was removed by fingers after it gelled. The glue-up was void of any glue clean-up or marks of glue not wiped off enough. All joints were nice and tight.
With that said, will I use hide glue for everything? Absolutely not, but for a project like this, with advance planning, I probably did far better than I have for any other first step with a new process.
T.Z.
I feel about like that too. Like others mentioned, the old elmers is just so handy it will never disappear from my shop. I might add that I too like the white glue a bit better than the fast set stuff. I need the open time more than a quick dry. Friends of mine have said the white is not as strong as the yellow but truthfully I can't tell.
Additionally, I have used white glue to iron on some veneer in the past. I read about that in FWW and gave it a try. Work very well. After a couple tries with the white and clamping and ironing, I went back to the old hide. Guess its just habit or something.
Have fun
dan
dan,
Maybe you like the idea of kinda stepping back in time?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Remember - not everything that's old is bad... :DTom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
Tom,
Rest assured, I know about old! Just trying to get a rise outa dan. But I must admit that the next time I try hide glue will be my first. This discussion has whetted my appetite to tru it when the weather gets a bit warmer up here.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
hey, Bob - I wrote an article in Woodcraft magazine a few years ago on Hide glue and have used it a lot since. It's not the easiest stuff to work with (the yellow glues are always ready - hide glue takes some planning ahead), but the results are very impressive.I think you'll love it.Tom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
Maybe you like the idea of kinda stepping back in time?
I like the old glue pot going next to my coffee pot. Its like having my scraper in my back pocket. It keeps me from sitting down too much and its there when I need it... often.
I keep the hot glue going in many cases to do rub joints. They are so easy and they are a great way to increase the strength of a joint. Nice way to use short scraps. I like it so much I know I overkill things but nobody can see it and I get a warm fuzzy.
These days I am not cutting rabbets with a straight bit. I cut dovetail slots and cut the end of the boards with the same bit for a tight mechanical joint. A little glue in the right place and you are in there. Hide that is. No more elmers squeeze out and fighting with clamps when I am alone.
I got an email on hide glue that had a point I have heard before and worth sharing.
"Hide glue gets soft in humid weather" so he avoids using it for fear of joints giving out. I just got off the phone with one of the Gurus of hide glue production and use. He told me the guys who experience these troubles are generally hide gluers that put a little too much salt in the mix. The salt is a hygroscopic addition and it draws the water. His guess is it should not matter if you use 5% to increase the set up time with an additional 5 minutes but adding a bunch of salt is asking for problems.
dan
Edited 3/1/2008 6:38 pm ET by danmart
Hi dan,
I've been thinking about using Hide glue for a while now. My biggest concern is that we have a lot of cold weather up here as you know. I guess my first question, not knowing very much about it, is what is the best way to deal with that?
I will look through FWW for info. but is/are there any other recommended research that you could point me to? I know I can Google and probably come up with a ton but I don't want to wade through it all. Reason being I don't want to have to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Being a first time hide glue user this week on a project, the best advice I could give is just don't make it more complicated than it is. The process is actually very simple and best of all, no more glue stains! I got very simple instructions from a Woodcentral (another forum) article.
T.Z.
Tony,
Avid believer in the KISS principal.
Concern is cold more than anything else at this time. My woodshop is unheated when unoccupied and it gets mighty cold up here (think -20°F and more/less). Humidity isn't a great concern.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Go ahead and get some and play with it in the kitchen. The smell is not that bad. Lots of folks comment on the smell but that it true only when you burn it down to virtually a cake and it smokes or you get some glue on the burners. My dog barks and hangs around the pot when it gets in the red zone. He's my safety alarm in the shop.
Cold Wx
Bring the pieces to be glue in the house. Let them warm up. No doubt Bob, hide glue is a bear in cold weather. If it’s cold, the glue gels up too fast and you're out of working time. I work in a rather cold shop myself. Not quite like unheated northern NH but still too cold for the hide.<!----><!----><!---->
When I veneer a small piece or do some chair stuff I can set the pieces in a warm area. This helps a bunch. Additionally, I like to heat small panels(18x18") in the oven for a short period to make the glue set time a bit longer. It sounds odd but I got the idea from another hide toad and it works. Others have used hair dryers and paint remover heat guns with good results.<!----><!---->
I think its important to point out that yellow/white glues don't do that well setting up in the cold but they are far better than hide. <!----><!---->
The long and short on hide is the ability to fix joints with very little dis-assembly. Its great. Most of my friends look at that as something reserved for "antiques" and old stuff. Truth is, lots of furniture made in the 20th century still employed hide glue. After you do a couple repairs on a piece glued up with hide glue you will really appreciate the stuff.<!----><!---->
If you get to the point where you want to give it a try, I would recommend ordering a pound of 192gram glue to start off your testing. Wait till spring time rolls around to use it on your latest piece. In the mean time, play with it in the kitchen instead of watching reruns. If you aren't sure about the stuff, just use an old pot of water with a pyrex jar or another small metal bowl and double boil the stuff to 140-155. Play around with it. Do some rub joints with some scraps to get a feel for how fast it sets up. It will make sense once to get your hands on the stuff. Lots of benefits.<!----><!---->
Lots of guys over the years have used urea to slow it down. I learned to use a little salt. I think they both do the trick and I'm not smart enough to know how much it weakens the joint but I have some stuff thats 30+ years sittin' tight as a tick. There's room to play.<!----><!---->
Like everything else, there's a learning curve but it’s not a heavy investment. When I was first trying to figure out hide glue, there wasn't all the info on gram strength or I had my head up and locked so I missed it. I still have a few pounds of the stuff I got a long time ago.
I called the guy down in Charlotte NC(Eugene Thordahl-Bjorn Industries) and asked him about the hide upgrades and other stuff and he is so nice he told me to send him a small bag of the stuff I had and he could tell me what I have been using with very little effort. I'm sold on this guy.
He got in the hide glue business back when Moby Dick was a minnow. He used to travel all over the world inspecting hide glue production plants for new sources for world wide applications: medical and paper industries use a ton of it. More actually.
At present, there is only one producer in the <!----><!----><!---->USA<!----><!---->. They are up in <!----><!---->Jamestown<!----> <!---->NY<!----><!---->. They make lots of the glue sold by the suppliers in this country. His word of caution was: not all hide glue is the same quality. Some of the stuff coming out of the banana republics is very inconsistent and knowing your source is important. Asking the supplier where they get their glue is a valid and important question if you want a good glue on your projects.
If you don’t want to get in the hot hide business right now(too cold) you can use the liquid hide glue from the bottle and get results that are close to the pot. The best liquid hide in my opinion is Old Brown Glue from Pat Edwards in <!----><!---->California<!----><!---->. Good Stuff and he is a very smart and talented craftsman.
Rather long summary but hey... its Friday and I am fired up.
dan
Edited 8/29/2009 7:02 pm ET by danmart
Hey thanks dan,
That's just the stuff I was looking to hear. My woodshop is heated, but only when I'm using it. That's my concern about the cold. When the warmer weather gets here I'll be all set it sounds like.
I will get some of the Old Brown Glue from Patrick. I have emailed him several times in the past so he isn't exactly a stranger to me.
I'm getting fairly close to glueing some of the pieces for the QA piece that I've been working on this winter so I wan't to give hide glue a try on it. I've also been roaming around the Web too.
I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go along. I don't care what they say, you're good! :-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/29/2008 9:12 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
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