All,
Please give me some advice on a project I’m trying to figure out.
I have 7’wide x 24″ deep x 10′ high dead space in a butler pantry that I’m trying to figure out how to put a wine cellar/cabinet in.
I’ve got most of it figured out, except the doors. The general idea is to fur out the existing studs and insultate 12″ all around, 24″ above and 12″ below (above the floor). From there we vapor barrier the inside of the space and line with either redwood panels or slate tiles (slate has more thermal mass, redwood is better for maintaining humidity). We can cool either with through-wall wine chillers that vent into the butler pantry above head height or install a split system — TBD.
We want the doors to be very enery efficient, but glass, so we are thinking double, double pane glass (yep, that’s 4 panes), which makes for a thick (like 3″) and heavy (like 45-50lbs) door that we would mount on refrigerator door hinges. I’m thinking 3 doors about 24″ wide
I can’t find anywhere that will sell you a door like that, and even the custom ones on the internet are $1500-$2K each.
So, the questions are:
1) How would you build a door like that? Do I need to worry about warping with the differential humidity. If so, how do I design around that?
2) What would you to get it to seal (e.g. the magnetic seals like on refrigerators or regular sweeps like on exterior doors)
Thoughts? Examples?
Cheers,
Eric
Replies
Some thoughts
Yes you do have to worry about differential humidity. But starting with the glass, I can't quite believe it will be worth the effort to go to the extremes that you suggest. The temperature differential between inside and outside the cabinet is not that great. Besides glass is relatively transparent to thermal radiation which may be a greater heat loss than thermal conductivity.
In doing heat loss calculations for buildings it is always surprising to discover that making even 2 feet of insulation on the roof does not significantly improve the performance of the structure. One wonders where the largest heat/humidity loss will be and it may be the mechanical unit opening more than the door.
On another note, isn't it interesting that wine cellars have replaced libraries with books as the symbol of the cultured elite? As a restaurant owner said to me, wine cellars are responsible for the loss of more good wine than anything he can think of. People by cases of wine too good to drink. Kind of a shame. My cousin on the other hand, for whom we helped plan a large wine cellar can't manage to stock it. His wife says he is Mr. Instant Gratification. Still even an empty cellar looks impressive.
Peter
I wonder if you are designing for the correct conditions. As far as I know wine will be OK below 20 deg C. That's not a terribly difficult insulation requirement.
OTOH you seem to be opting for the wine to be exposed to light. Not such a good idea. Bottles are made of tinted glass to reduce light damage to the wine.
Granted that beer is more light sensitive than wine, 1hr exposure to flourescent light can lead to an off-flavour in a beer that is in a medium dark bottle.
Impact of light on beer
Wow, I didn't realize beer got lightstruck (I've been doing some googling.) And I like the hoppy ones which are most susceptible. I'm thinking of all the stores that have the bottles on the racks or in the lit refridgerator cabinets, and that maybe I'll stick to unopened cases.
Life just got a little bit tougher.
Don't lose sleep over it. Leave it to the brewers to worry :-)
Yes, beers have a propensity to be light struck but a well brewed, well bottled beer also has a certain amout of built-in resistance. As long as your favourite brew tastes all right, it is all right.
OTOH when you're shopping pick your packages sensibly. Skol!
Wine Door
Eric,
Depends on the temp of your cellar, most are designed to hold red wine at 55 to60 degrees. This is a temp that allows red wine to age and develop, colder temps will stop that process and the reds will not mature. Whites are often cellared at colder temps, but most folks do not cellar whites and drink them young.
So a typical front door with glass and good weather stripping will work more than fine. I have designed a couple of doors, and we used a typical double pane center glass door, with an applied steel deco of leaves and grapes to the outside. It works great, and no cold spots on the outside.
AZMO
Not sure if this applies, but I am currently living in a log home in which the front wall is glass. The windows are double paned 1/2" glass set in a wood frames. At some point, or over time, some moisture has worked it's way in between the panes. It looks terrible and there's no way to clean it. If the humidity on the inside is going to be a lot different than the outside, I'd be real careful about building those doors. The last set of double paned windows I bought were sealed and filled with gas (argon?)
On the other hand, I've had several entry doors which were a combination of wood and single paned glass which seem pretty good at keeping the inside and outside seperated- even in the depth of winter (-20 outside 65 inside).
I think that, unless you are putting this room in the middle of a desert somewhere, there's no need to over do it. If it's going to be in a climate controlled buiding, it won't take much to make the room stable.
Built-up construction
I haven't built a refrigerator door, but I've been messing about using rigid foam as the core in "torsion box" sorts of panels. This results in a highly stable, lightweight, and strong construction. Basically it's a plywood-foam-plywood sandwich. Solid wood inserts are incorporated where needed on the edges and other areas in order to affix hinges and other hardware. I think this sort of thing might serve you well. How to adapt it to your specific application is yet to be decided.
This composite panel arrangement can be veneered with just about any species of wood or other material you want.
I would not expect that solid wood, stile and rail, doors will fare well for you.
The closure strip is also something that I'm not familiar with. I believe one can purchase magnetic gasket material as replacement/repair for refrigerators. If so, insetting a metal (steel) strip into the wine case should be rather straightforward.
No Need For Such Extremes
We have built many wine cellars and doors over the years. While it is important to seal the space and especially the door, regular insulated glass is very adequate. If energy savings is a primary requirement, remove and reduce all your windows and most doors first. Your costs to run a chiller for such a small space will be minimal.
Wood framed doors, 1-3/4" thick, with 3/4" insulated glass and compressible foam weatherstrips and conventional passage latches are recommended. A threshold at the door bottom is essential. If the doors are to be more cabinet like in nature, then casement turn latches and a smaller silicone weatherbulb will suffice.
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