Replies

1. 
   Manchild | Mar 19, 2005 10:40pm | #1

   I'm no expert, but work is good. Period. So go for it and try to remember what worked and what didn't. Write down how long different parts of the job took to reference down the line so you don't repeat mistakes.

   Most of the small contractors I've worked with and for just keep plowing ahead even if it doesn't work. Alot of this stuff you almost have to learn as you go. The trick is to learn and not get stuck repeating mistakes.

   Also, if this costomer is any kind of a lead to more work that you want, they are golden!

   Good references can go a long way to get people to trust you.

2. 
   MarkRD | Mar 19, 2005 10:59pm | #2

   I've learned that in ten years of mgmt consulting - never turn away business no matter how small. Particularly if you have no other work going on.

   If your customers like you, they'll wait until you are available rather than risk going with a supplier they know nothing about. Remember it's all about relationships (and expectations).

   I can also help you with the estimating of work. I teach this subject in my Project Management Seminars. If statistics (or working with a spread sheet that does all the math) don't scare you, check out my article on Range Based Estimates called "Bad estimates aren't worth the risk," at http://www.oakinc.com/pdf/estimates.pdf

   Basically, you need to break the project down into pieces of work. Those pieces of work should be of the size you can estimate with confidence. Estimate them in man-hours first. Then look at the man-hours and "convert" them to duration units (days).

   So if you are an often interrupted person, 4 man-hours of effort might take you 1 day of duration. If you are hardly interrupted then 4 man-hours of effort might take half a day.

   Take an hour or so and do an effort estimate (break the work down in to chunks,then estimate each chunk).

   If you need more assistance, post here - I'll look in again - or email me direct. My email is correct in my profile.

   Also, do protect youself with a contract, progress payments and a "backout" clause of some sort (recently there was a thread either here or in "ToolTalk" that dealt with a customer backing out of a big project at the last second. :-( )

   Best Of Luck,
   Mark

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

3. 
   Tao | Mar 19, 2005 10:59pm | #3

   How many hours per week are you planning to work?  What's you shop situation?  How fast are you?  Quality level?

   I have my own idea of how long it would take me, but how long it would take you depends so much on your experience level, what you have to work with, how much space, etc.

   Just off the top of my head, it would take me about a week, working alone, full time, to fabricate, finish, and install, working to commercial premium cabinet standards (not fine furniture).  I could do it quicker with some better equipment, much slower if I had to move everything, every time I turned around. 

   It might be a good time to think about buying a dovetail jig instead of finger jointing your drawers.

   Michael R

1. 
   adastra | Mar 20, 2005 02:05am | #4

   "I could do it quicker with some better equipment, much slower if I had to move everything, every time I turned around."Amen, brother.When I went solo after working for seven years in pro shops that is the thing I underestimated. How much time can be lost doing cabinets if you don't have to room to keep everything out of the way and keep the work flowing. Had no idea how much of a drain it would be to time and productivity.Because its not just the time moving something, its the interruption and trying to stay "in the zone".Will never make that mistake again, its a killer.

4. 
   georgek | Mar 20, 2005 05:15pm | #5

   I agree with woodwiz on this. In a well organized shop, I'd expect myself to complete what you described in 10 days max.

   One thing that bothers me is the use of 1/4" plywood panels for the doors, how does that translate to furniture grade? The price of quarter sawn white oak plywood, even at 1/4" is the same as using solid stock. As woodwiz said, I think you're going for premium cabinet grade, do it as fast as possible and as well as possible.

   Good luck

1. 
   Tao | Mar 20, 2005 07:00pm | #6

   A word of explanation: The reason I said premium cabinet grade is that this is clearly what Notrix is after.  This project would never call for what some of us know as fine custom furniture work, using all solid wood, joinery determined by the design, not by what equipment is available, carefully selected and matched wood, etc.  It's a kitchen island!

   Mark has some good points on estimating.  Just sit down and write down each step required to make each part of the project, and give your best estimate of the time it takes you to perform each operation.  Don't forget time for material handling and setup.  How long to rough cut and rip all your face frame and door parts ( how many lineal feet at  how many feet per hour, etc.)  How long to cut all the parts to final dimension (how many parts do you nee dto cut, and how many can you consistently cut per hour).  How much time for drawer parts.

   If this is your first try at estimating without objective records, triple your initial time estimate, and you'll be in the ballpark -- At least that's how it was for me when I switched from production work to custom work.

   Michael R

1. 
   MarkRD | Mar 20, 2005 09:53pm | #7

   " triple your initial time estimate,"Uh oh, here come the rules of thumb :-)As you might imagine, as a consultant on Project Management, I hear all kinds of rules of thumb.For example.If you estimate a task as 1 day, convert it to the next highest unit. So 1 day becomes 1 week. 2 Weeks becomes 2 months. My Brother ran a tree service for a while. They always doubled their estimates. Like, expect to show up on Monday, tell them the following monday.Want to know how to estimate a project? Weigh the specification. The ligher the specification, the higher the estimate :-)On a more serious note, "rules of thumb" are dangerous. Try the range estimating process described in my article...Enjoy the chuckle,Mark

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

1. 
   Tao | Mar 20, 2005 10:21pm | #8

   I use a similar philosophy to what you describe in the article, including estimating a range of possibilities and running my estimates from a couple of different approaches. I learned to use PERT and CPM over thirty years ago managing construction projects, and the principles still apply. My estimates usually work out pretty well.

   My comment about tripling the initial estimate is based on experience, my own and many others'.  If a person doesn't have records to tell him how long an operation has actually taken in the past, he has a tendency to severely underestimate the time involved, and to leave out whole steps in the process.  No matter how good your system is, if your input is bad, your estimate will be bad. It's been my experience that people in this business who are new to estimating usually end up spending two to three times as many hours on a job as thought it would take.

   So while I agree with you about not using rules of thumb as a matter of general practice, I suspect it might be a valid recommendation here.

   Michael R

   Edited 3/20/2005 3:24 pm ET by Woodwiz

1. 
   MarkRD | Mar 20, 2005 11:44pm | #9

   My biggest concern is that your thumb and my thumb are different sizes. What works for you may not work for me. I absolutly agree that work is usually underestimated. That's why I recommend the step of breaking the work down into smaller, known pieces. The analogy is how do you divide a bag of M&Ms equally for your three kids. You could look at the bag and grab three handfuls (high level estimate) or you could count each M&M. Breaking the task into smaller pieces takes more time (up front) but you get a better estimate in the long run - and you properly set the expectation of your stakeholders.I do a talk on estimating called "Project Estimates and the Lying liars who tell them." (with apologies to Al Franken)It's great fun because so many people can relate.Mark

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

2. 
   NOTRIX1 | Mar 21, 2005 12:55am | #10

   Thanks all,All interesting points.Here's what I've come up with:
   WEEK 1
   Day 1: Finalize design. Prep floor, patch flooring. Gathering of materials
   Day 2: Gathering of materials, shop prep,hardware, finish etc..Mill lumber
   Day 3: Mill lumber Build boxes
   Day 4: Build boxes,Urethane interior of boxes, Pre-stain HW edging to match exterior
   Day 5: Mull boxes together,Edge boxes with Pre-stained HW
   SATURDAY
   Catch Up
   WEEK 2
   Day 6: Build out side frame work and apply (pre finish)
   Day 7: Build out side frame work and apply (pre finish) cont.
   Day 8: Build out side frame work and apply (pre finish) cont.
   Day 9: Build 8 Drawers finger jointed 1/2" birch ply
   Day 10: Build 8 Drawers finger jointed 1/2" birch ply cont. Urethane
   SATURDAY
   Catch Up
   WEEK 3
   Day 11: Build 15 Door panels. Inset 60 decorative plugs
   Day 12: Build 15 Door panels. Inset 60 decorative plugs cont.
   Day 13: Fit doors and drawers
   Day 14: Install on site, rough plumbing electrical
   Day 15: Rough to finish electrical and plumbing
   SATURDAY
   Catch Up
   WEEK 4
   Day 16: Prep for and begin finish
   Day 17: Finish continued
   Day 18: Install hardware, drawer pulls etc..
   Day 19: Catch Up! Out!I'm gonna bid $3200=$800 a week.Sound fair??N

1. 
   MarkRD | Mar 21, 2005 01:54am | #11

   My assumptions are that you put in an 8 hour day. I know that might be a bit low - but there is some evidence that if you work 10's or 12's for an extended period, productivity will drop significantly due to errors/rework/lack of focus (tired). Also, by the end of four weeks your A*s will be draggin :-)Overall, it looks like a good breakdown of the work. I wouldn't break it into pieces smaller than the ones you've done - just make sure you have good lists when you head to your suppliers - those trips to go get stuff you ran out of or didn't have in the first place are killers...Here are my thoughts about your work breakdown IN ALL CAPS Day 1: Finalize design. Prep floor, patch flooring. Gathering of materials
   Day 2: Gathering of materials, shop prep,hardware, finish etc..Mill lumber
   Day 3: Mill lumber Build boxes
   Day 4: Build boxes,Urethane interior of boxes, Pre-stain HW edging to
   match exterior
   HOW MANY? BOXES LOOKS LIKE 1.5 DAYS OF BOX BUILDINGDay 5: Mull boxes together,Edge boxes with Pre-stained HW
   SATURDAY
   Catch UpDo you have a separate place to urethane from construction? WEEK 2
   Day 6: Build out side frame work and apply (pre finish)
   Day 7: Build out side frame work and apply (pre finish) cont.
   Day 8: Build out side frame work and apply (pre finish) cont.
   IS THIS FACE FRAMES? BISCUIT JOINED?Day 9: Build 8 Drawers finger jointed 1/2" birch ply
   Day 10: Build 8 Drawers finger jointed 1/2" birch ply cont. Urethane
   YOU'VE ALLOCATED 16 HOURS (NOMINALLY) TO BUILD 8 DRAWERS - NOT KNOWING YOUR WORK RATE, DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?SATURDAY
   Catch Up
   WEEK 3
   Day 11: Build 15 Door panels. Inset 60 decorative plugs
   Day 12: Build 15 Door panels. Inset 60 decorative plugs cont.
   SAME COMMENT - 16 HOURS TO BUILD 15 DOORS ABOUT 2 HOURS PER DOOR Day 13: Fit doors and drawers
   ASSUMING YOU'VE DONE A GOOD JOB BUILDING THE DOORS, FITTING WILL GO SMOOTHLY, RIGHT?Day 14: Install on site, rough plumbing electricalWILL YOU HAVE HELP MOVING ALL THE CABINETS?Day 15: Rough to finish electrical and plumbing
   SATURDAY
   Catch Up
   WEEK 4
   Day 16: Prep for and begin finish
   Day 17: Finish continued
   Day 18: Install hardware, drawer pulls etc..WILL HARDWARE BE PRE-DRILLED IN YOUR SHOP OR DO YOU HAVE TEMPLATES FOR MARKING HOLES AND DRILLING?Day 19: Catch Up! Out!I'm gonna bid $3200=$800 a wGo for $1000 :-)Hope that helps,
   Mark
   

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

2. 
   NOTRIX1 | Mar 21, 2005 02:09am | #12

   Thanks for the review..The basic design will be 3 separate boxes. 1 1/2 days ample.Uretahne will be the last thing done each day or the only thing.The "frames aren't face frames but basically they are, just decorative strips. I will biscuit them together though and screw/nail to plywood boxes.2 hours a drawer seems resonable based on the last time I made such.1 hour per door also doable ( I'll be rough milling the first week)
   My time on each will be limited by my clamps. I have 8 Bessey Ks, that's only 2 at a time.I have help moving them.Hardware..in the past shop jigs. Client may spring for a set of Blum hinge and drawer jigs.I'll also specify *acts of God in the agree ment, these to include illness and prearranged plans.Thanks again, you got me thinking..N

3. 
   MarkRD | Mar 21, 2005 03:33am | #14

   Maybe you want to spring for some more bessy clamps and eliminate the bottle neck.Regarding the "getting you thinking," that's my job my customers pay me the big bucks for.You just got about $300 worth of consulting for free. :-)We woodworkers have to stick together.Best,
   MarkOh and could I borrow your router. (just kidding)
   

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

4. 
   Tao | Mar 21, 2005 02:12am | #13

   It's really hard to tell.  Your terms and approach are very much different from mine.  Lots of questions: What is this side framework to which you refer? Why finger joints? Why do you waste time applying finish in the middle of fabrication when it's a lot more efficient to finish everything all at once?  Are you finishing with oil based poly? If so, why do you put up with the slow drying time, etc?

   In general, on a project like this, I use something like the following sequence.  My shop is crowded, so I like to reduce the bulk of my materials as quickly as possible and get rid of the waste.  The sequence isn't the most efficient, but I like to build the boxes so I have something other than just my figures to double check door and drawer dimensions against.  I make mistakes, and this helps me catch them before they start to cost me.

   Measure, draw plans, do material takeoff.

   Order materials, get as much delivered as possible.  When I go buy stuff, I'm an $80 per hour delivery boy.  Nice work, if you can get it.

   Plane, roughcut and rip stock for all doors, drawers, face frame and trim.

   Rip, cutoff and glue up stock for raised panels, if needed

   Cutup plywood for boxes, rip stock for drawer boxes & bottoms

   Drill shelf holes in box sides

   Assemble boxes

   Final cut to size face frame components, edgesand,assemble and install face frames (if required)

   Final cutup on door stiles and rails, run stick and cope

   Cut to size, plane, and machine raised panels, sand and prestain edges.

   Assemble doors.

   Final cut drawer fronts.

   Machine drawer fronts – rabbets and dovetails

   Mill outer profiles on doors and drawer fronts

   Cut pockets for hinges in doors

   Final cut and machine drawer sides, backs and bottoms

   Assemble drawers

   Machine and install trim on island base

   Finish sand everything

   Mask drawers

   Stain drawer fronts, doors, boxes

   Remove masking on drawers,

   Seal all

   Scuff sand all

   Topcoat all x 2

   Hang hardware, adjust fit where necessary

   deliver & install

   Speaking of mistakes, I may have skipped whole processes here, but this gives the general idea of how I approach things in my shop.  Other people will have very much different approaches, but all will try to minimize the number of setups, the amount of material handling and the amount of wasted energy and duplication. 

    

   I don't know whether that helps you any, but with an approach like that I can tell you pretty closely how long each step will take, and the total time would easily be within ten percent..  The overall price sounds OK from a market standpoint - you'd know your market best, but the rate you pay yourself would really suck if you had shop rent, utilities, insurance, etc. to pay. 

    

   Michael R

   <!----><!----> <!---->

    

5. 
   NOTRIX1 | Mar 21, 2005 05:52am | #15

   Regarding finger joints...I've heard a few poeple have issues with them. I have a table saw jig and it works pretty good once set properly. Client wants to spring for Blum Tandem draw runners that allow the sides to be hard ware free so joinery matters..ie; no dados.What would you suggest?I've considered a dovetail jig but haven't used any but the cheesy kind that gives a half blind.Most of my freinds say Keller and I'm consiering that one. Without a can of worms could I expect to learn that quick enough to apply to this job? It might be an "icing on the cake" deal and give me more $$ and a grace period. Finger joints do nothing for them but they've seen my work which uses them . FJs are client approved but dovetails would be nice and I just got another project where the client asked if dovetials were possible so it'd be a good investment.Anyway..I really appreciatte all the great advice. I feel like I have a much better handle on the deal. I wish I could easily post drawings to make it clearer, like why I'm urethaning at certain points but that's not possible.Thanks very much to all!N

6. 
   Tao | Mar 21, 2005 07:15am | #16

   I think a jig like a Keller is pretty easy to learn.  The main change you'll have to make is to size your drawers to fit the dovetail spacing.  Keller gets almost universally good reviews for a fixed spacing jig.  Once you get set up, I think you'll save time over finger joints, and have a lot higher perceived value.   A couple of hours should get you going, and you should be more or less up to speed in half a day.  I should thik you could machine 3 complete drawers an hour with no trouble - that's allowing 5 minutes per corner once the jig is set up.  That would mean you could machine and build your drawers in less than a day.

   I ran furniture factories for 20 years and have done custom work for close to 15, now, and I never encountered a design where it made sense to pull pieces out to finish during fabrication, other than staining the edges of raised panels.  You might want to give that some thought.

   You also might want to give some thought about spending $80 on an Astro hvlp gun, or $170 on a gun and pressure pot, and deep-sixing the oil based poly.  You wouldn't believe the time you'll save and the quality improvement you'll get with a fast drying coating and a spray gun.  Target, Fuhr, and a whole host of other manufacturers have decent performing waterborne finishes that meet California criteria.

   I know that's a lot of stuff to think about all at once, but you might want to print out this thread and refer to it often as your perceptions change.  There are a lot of worthwhile observations here from everybody.  If you are going to be a pro and make it work, the sooner you start thinking like a pro, the better off you'll be.

   Michael R

7. 
   adastra | Mar 21, 2005 08:38am | #17

   I've not used a Keller, I use a Leigh and have used the Porter Cable half-blind industrial jig at a furniture shop.The PC works very well for HB dovetails, fast and holds up well in commercial use. Remember you'll be cutting two parts in one pass so it is very efficient. Its clamping system is well designed to speed material handling.I run the Leigh for its flexibility as I'm not trying to be a cabinet shop, but for speed the Porter Cable is worth it for a small shop if you are wanting better joinery in a kitchen full of drawers. Outsourcing drawers and doors is another option. When you do a cost comparison you might be surpised. Those door and drawer makers are totally set up for production and get a much better deal on materials than a one-man shop can. And the quality is very good with some of the outfits at least in our area.I did a basement full of archtop raised panel oak doors in my shop using router cutters and that it the last time I will do that. Its great to have the capability in case you need to kick one out ASAP but compared to doing it with shapers/power feeders or more industrial setups its no comparison. They turned out great but I would like them even more if I had made money on them. You can even order them prebored for Blum hinges and finish sanded.I second the opinion about a gravity feed HVLP. I sprayed solvent from a pressure pot at the cabinet shop and got a gravity feed to spray water based lacquer in my shop. The lacquer costs more but with proper ventilation there are little fumes to deal with but you'll have to consider the grain raising and stain compatibility. Although if the stain is allowed to dry its not supposed to be a problem.But the speed and control a gun offers is great. Just make sure to get the proper tip size and that your compressor can handle the air demands or you'll be taxing it.I wish I could remember who said it but the line goes something like "cabinetmaking is about process, furnituremaking is about product" Anyway just adding to the stew.