I need some advice about choosing the starting pitch and burr angle for the LN 112 scraping plane. Mine was shipped with a 60 degree blade angle. I have reground it to 45 degrees as recommended by DC in his second book. LN recommends a 90 degree burr; DC a 75 degree. Both apparently go with the 15 degree forward pitch. Thanks.
Regards, John
Replies
Try it without a burr. I do mine that way and find it quite good. I will probably try a burr later, but as it is it works.
John, the first thing I would recommend is to remove the LN blade and put it in box , this blade is way to thick for use in a hand scraper unless you want to use it to remove peeling paint from a barn.
Replace the blade with a good quality scraper blade between .025 and ,030 thick. Turn a card scraper on end or make one from an old handsaw.
Using a new Nichelson or Gorbet mill bastard hand file, file the blade at approximately 45 degrees, file until you feel a burr formed all the way across the back of the blade. Using an aluminum oxide stone remove the burr that was formed by filing then using a hard Arkansaw ,stone the back to remove scratches. (in other words prepare the back of the scraper blade like you would the back of a chisel or plane blade. Then LIGHTLY rub the hard arkansaw stone over the 45 degree face once or twice trying to keep the stone on the flat of the 45 face. Place the blade in a vise with about 1 inch of blade above the jaws, using a hard highly polished burnisher that has been moistened with saliva or owl snot(I haven't been able to catch a sick owl or find a nature store that stocks it so I only use saliva, I hate oil it makes my wife mad when I get it on my clothes), lay the burnisher on the 45 flat and raise the burnisher 10- 15 degrees, trying to maintain this angle start at one end of the blade pull the burnisher across the blade using a very hard down pressure, You are trying to form the burr with ONE stroke. At this point you should be able to put your fingernail under the burr and pull up slightly, pull it across the length of the scraper blade.You should be able to keep your nail under the burr for the length of the blade without it coming out and slipping off the blade.
The next step is probably the most important step and the least understood by non metal workers. After the burr is formed and will pass the finger test lay the blade flat on the bench, place the burnisher parallel to the blade and bench,using 6 or 8 hard passes burnish the burr until it is flat. This step neads the metal into the back of the scraper blade and also work hardens the very end of the blade. (don't forget the owl snot) Holding the blade in your hand very lightly rub the hard arkansaw stone over the 45 degree face once or twice to remove any overflow metal that made its way to the 45 face flat.
Place the blade back in the vise and repeat the step above for turning the burr with one hard pass.
At this point you should be able to use the scraper like a card scraper to test on a piece of wood. As you would do with a card scraper set the burr into the wood and find the "sweet spot" that the burr draws a nice long shaving.When you can draw a shaving by hand NOTE THE ANGLE the blade is at when cutting its best (sweet spot) If you cannot accomplish this shaving it's time to go back to the beginning and start over, another way of stating this is you should put the frosted flakes back into the cereal box , you are not going to be able to arrange the flakes into a tiger.
Once you have properly sharpened the blade and can scrape a nice shaving it is time for the REALLY HARD PART, that's installing the blade into the plane and setting the proper angle for best performance.
Preset the angle of the scraper frog to the angle you observed as the sweet spot angle from above, then adjust the sweet spot angle 2 -5 degrees steeper (frog tilting towards rear of scraper body)
Place a flat piece of metal on the bench (an old scraper blade will work or the blade on your square with the handle overhanging the side of the bench) Set the plane throat over the piece of metal .Install the blade in the frog(burr forward), with the tightening
screw loose lightly press the blade against the flat metal under the throat opening then tighten the blade locking screw.
If properly done the plane will not cut at this setting or will cut very light. If one of the above occurs then you can adjust the frog forward to set the required depth of cut or adjust the frog toward rear of plane to reduce the depth of cut.
If you have read this far you may be dedicated and really want to learn, I realize it is lengthly but there were several points left out. This is a start and with practice it can be very rewarding when one masters the sharpening and setting of the scraper plane. I am preparing a writeup on my blog (http://www.hamlertools.blogspot.com) to cover some other points on sharpening and adjusting a scraper plane.
Paul Hamler
Edited 8/25/2007 10:30 am ET by hamlertools
With all due respect, Mr Hamler, I have yet to see anyone suggest that the L-N scraper blade be discarded in favor of a piece of saw plate. I will perhaps try your suggestion while awaiting the arrival of what I believe will be onslaught of dissenting opinions.
While I have you on the line, I want to take this opportunity to compliment you on the beautiful plow plane that you recently offered. It truly was a work of art. I find it a stark contrast to another plow plane that has caused much excitement in the forums in recent days, from just north of the border. While there may be a sort of beauty in good engineering, one has to look hard to find it in that product.
I hope you do try my suggestion. A few years ago, when I was manufacturing the HT (Hamler Tools) 212 scraper, I had several people bring their LN scraper into the shop and ask me if I could make it work.
Discarding the thick and installing a .030 blade resulted in many smiles and happy woodworkers.
Although one could sharpen the very thick blade with some success the 212 was not made to receive such a robust cutter blade, See the analogy I make about rakes on my blog when discussing blade thickness and adjustment for the 85 scraper. A thick blade when set at 90 degrees will do a great job on pine or other soft woods if sharpened at 45 degrees and a clean burr turned.
Paul
Paul,
I tried your method today on My LN 212 (which I have had for years and was never quite satisfied with the way it scraped). I used a .045 thick old hand scraper blade; I had to fiddle with the depth setting a few minutes to get rid of chatter, but found it did work well. Thanks. Gary
Gary
I have no doubt that a thin blade will work. A thick blade will also work. The question is, which works better?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hope you do not mind me jumping in, but I have been thinking and my head hurts.
Hand scraper blades are bowed by thumb pressure in use. The blades of normal scraper planes are similarly tensioned. This gives a degree of stiffness, but also has the effect of curving the cutting edge.
Has anyone considered the curve may be the key, so that a slight camber to the edge of the thick blades may be the answer when obviously those blades cannot be flexed in use?
I have two LN scraper planes so will try it.
Derek, this is an incomplete question. Which will work best depends on several variables, size of the scraper plane, type of wood ,the wood removal plan, finish desired, and the skill level of the person sharpening and installing the blade and many more.It was the skill level variable I was addressing in my post. There are more variables in sharpening and properly installing a blade in a scraper plane that has an adjustable pitch than doing the same with a fixed angle wood or metal plane.The proof of this is the hundreds of post on various forums asking "how to" as well as the 19 or 20 articles and videos that have tried to address this subject. It has been my experience that the beginner can prepare a thinner blade much easier than a thicker harder blade.After the sharpening is mastered there are a whole new set of challenges that arise,with a thick blade in a scraper plane the size of a 212 ,85,87 or 112 there is an imbalance in mass and the lack of inertia one can generate with the plane with a thick blade installed as well as a thin blade. . When scraping with a thick blade and the blade encounters a knot or grain pattern that offers greater resistance this will either slow down the forward motion of the plane, make it chatter ,or just plane stop moving forward for everyone except Hulk Hogan. When a thinner blade encounters increased resistance the blade will bow and usually keep the forward travel moving. This bowing or flexing of the blade will greaatly reduce tear out of the grain that can occur with a thicker blade. When using a thinner blade as the blade leaves the edge of the wood I can often hear a snap or pop as the blade flexes back to the normal position. Another solution is to increase the mass of the plane itself, I am sure your stanley #7 with a scraper blade installed provides you more power and less stalling than say a 212 or 85 scraper.
Which plane works best a stanley #2 or a Stanley #7, which is the better way to sharpen the blade bevel up or bevel down, what is the purpose of the NIB on a handsaw. I am afraid all these questions will never be answered to every ones satisfaction just like "which works best".
Paul Hamler
Paul - Thank you so much for your thorough responses to my recent scraper question. I appreciate it very much. Warmest personal regards, John
Hi Paul<!----><!----><!---->
Thanks for taking the time to respond so fully.
I have been giving some thought to the question of thick verses thin scraper blades, more so since you produced your scraper plane insert, particularly as your advocating of thin blades really flies in the face of present day preferences for thick blades. <!----><!---->
There are so many variables involved here, as you pointed out. I was considering what might be said as a rejoiner, but I do not have the type of experimental "evidence" to weigh in with at this time. I am aware that the issue to recognise is that scraper blades are not plane blades, and that they have different dynamics.
Does the type of wood (density, grain complexity) affect the choice of cutting angle, and does the latter has a significant part to play in whether one uses a thick or a thin scraper blade? Perhaps you might wish to comment on these, that is, whether you hold such views, or not, and why.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derick, you stated " I am aware that the issue to recognise is that scraper blades are not plane blades, and that they have different dynamics." I would argue that in fact a scraper blade is a plane blade and performs the same cutting action on wood that a conventional plane iron does, the differeaence is the scale or size of the plane blade that we have always called a scraper. Maybe a better name for a scraper might be "Micro Plane" because the burr on a properly sharpened scraper actually slices, lifts and curls a continuous shaving from the wood like a plane but on a scale so small that tear-out is practically eliminated. The hook or burr is anaglous to the plane iron in a normal plane ,the flat portion of the scraper blade directly behind the hook is the chipbreaker that acts like a chipbreaker on a normal plane except that it is only .001 to .0025 inches away from the cutting edge….try setting a chipbreaker to these tolerances on a "normal" bench plane. The .001 to .0025 numbers come from measuring with a micrometer the blade thickness away from the burr and then across the burr. The .001 or less is with a very light burr and the .0025 is with a more aggressive burr.
You asked "Does the type of wood (density, grain complexity) affect the choice of cutting angle, and does the latter has a significant part to play in whether one uses a thick or a thin scraper blade?"
As for the cutting angle I have found that with a properly prepared scraper blade and hook the angle is not as critical as it is with a plane iron, perhaps this is due to the micro scale we are working with. However the scrapers cutting angle needs to be syncrozised with the angle of the burr to find the "sweet spot" for the most efficient operation. Using my patented spring adjustment on my scraper insert finding this sweet spot becomes a much easier task . One thing that many overlook when tuning or adjusting a scrapers cutting action is not using the sound the scraper makes when trying to find this balance. If the attact angle of the burr is off a little rather than hearing a pleasant scraping sound the sound is a high pitch annoying screech. The scraper will cut efficiently but the noise is aggrevating.
What scraper blade thickness is best for you? If you are doing mostly rough work ,a thicker scraper will be usually hold up better, for finer work a thinner blade is usually my choice.This is why I often recommend one buying the 4 pack of scraper blades that LV offers, it enables one to experiment and feel the differences that each provide. Bottom line it comes down to what you like and whatever works for you go for it , if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Paul Hamler
Edited 8/28/2007 12:29 pm ET by hamlertools
Edited 8/28/2007 8:21 pm ET by hamlertools
I would argue that in fact a scraper blade is a plane blade and performs the same cutting action on wood that a conventional plane iron does, the differeaence is the scale or size of the plane blade that we have always called a scraper. Maybe a better name for a scraper might be "Micro Plane" because the burr on a properly sharpened scraper actually slices, lifts and curls a continuous shaving from the wood like a plane ....
OK Paul, I will partially accept this. I agree that a hook/burr is equivalent to the bevel of a blade. Why partially? Because how then do we define a scraper blade that is set up without a hook/burr? I have used scrapers in both configurations, and they both can work very well.
(Other questions for later).
Thanks again for the very interesting reply. My head hurts from thinking about it! :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derick, that's an easy one, look at the number of planes you have that DO NOT have a chip breaker.Analogous to a scraper without a burr.
Paul
Paul
I don't think your analogy is an apt one - half my planes do not have a chip breaker!
I think that you are trying to say that all scrapers should have a burr. Yes? But the fact is that a scraper can work perfectly well without one (e.g. one of the better scrapers I use is a reversed sharp chisel blade). Does a scraper work better with a burr? Well, for some years I used my Stanley #112 (with LN blade) without a burr. But I must admit that I did not use it much - partly because I have some excellent high angle smoothers, and partly because it did not cut as well as a I demanded it to do on the timber I used (Aussie stuff, like Jarrah). Recently I was given a thin carbide rod as a burnisher. Out of curiosity I dusted off the #112 and burnished a small 5 degree burr. Well - I was impressed! So I am more in the camp that a good burr is better than no burr. Still, I would estimate that there are more woodworkers with scraper planes that do not add a burr.
How important is the angle at which the burr is formed? Does one simply adjust (you called it "syncronize") the angle of the blade until it is cutting satisfactorally - which is really another way of saying that one is adjusting the cutting angle to suit the timber. It appears to me that is automatic with card scrapers, a trial-and-error process with variable-angle scraper planes, and hit-or-miss with a fixed-angle scraper plane (like a #80).
The headache is still there! :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, I don't know where you read in the post that I state that all scrapers should have a burr, that never happened. I will say it again " if it ain't broke don't fix "if whatever you are having success with works keep doing it.
Paul
A 45 degree scraper plane blade with a hook is undoubtedly a sharp edge tool, just like a steep pitched plane blade with an extremely close set (very steep) chipbreaker or cap iron.
This conforms very closely to that Japanese research published on the web about the effectiveness of chipbreakers.
I think the L-N 112 blade is thicker than necessary, but it works perfectly and there is no case for replacing it, except possibly to save grinding time.
I find Ron Hock's 2.4mm approx 95 thou" blades produce a huge improvement in performance over the original thin Stanleys and feel that this is thick enough.
My guess is that 90 % of scraper planes sold to amateurs are never set up correctly, as there are many detailed points which need to be correct. See my recent article in F&C furniture and cabinetmaking magazine, July 07 issue 129, pages 16 - 20
This is why the subject will be demonstrated in my next Technique DVD ;-) among many other useful things.
best wishes, David Charlesworth
David, you are absolutely right about scrapers not being set up properly by armatures, with over 25 years experience of making and selling scrapers and other tools it continues to amaze me how many people either ,do not attempt to read the instructions , or give up when following them when they are not successful on the first attempt.Many of these are the same people who attempt to make a small wall hanging spice cabinet and use 0ne inch thick boards for the shelves. As I tried to point out on this post there are more challenges sharpening a scraper blade and properly installing and adjusting it to the plane. When my new scraper insert(http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Convert+A+Handplane+Into+A+Scraper+With+New+Tooling.aspx) hits the market these challenges have to be properly documented , thus I am easing into an education process on scrapers on my blog. In the next few weeks I will be posting a most comprehensive write-up on sharpening and installing the scraper insert into ones jointer plane. In the August edition of Woodwork magazine Kerry Pierce has one of the better write-ups I have seen in a while even though there a few errors and still a lot that could be expanded on.
I do not suggest that the only way to use a scraper blade in a plane is with a burr I also do not suggest one should only use thin blades. In any mechanical device it is difficult to design a tool that will perform a variety of tasks with one fixed design or cutter. Maybe a good example would be for one to look at the vast variety of planes that have and continue to be made. One plane simply cannot do it all.
My position on blade thickness (assuming all are sharpened properly and installed properly) is there are times when one thickness blade will perform better than a different thickness blade The type of plane the blade is installed in, type of wood, grain pattern, wood removal objective are but a few one must consider when selecting a blade thickness. An example I have used is the rake analogy . When using a yard rake to rake leaves the long springy sections of the rake are best suited for this job. If you use a garden rake with short thick rigid ribs you can still rake leaves with it but not as effective or with as nice a feel when using the yard rake. Also the yard rake is not as effective for aggressive soil movement or root removal.
In summary it isn’t that you need to replace the LN blade but if one want’s to expand their skill level with scrapers I would recommend experimenting with different thickness blades and then make a choice which works best for you.
As Rob Lee would say “CHEERS”
Paul
Mr. Hamler,
Wow! Beautiful work.
When I get around to making my scraper plane, I'll revisit your advice on blades and sharpening them. Thanks for coming around, I hope to hear more from you.
Regards,
Randy
The plow made by Hamler is just stunning. I've never seen the man's work before but what a really incredible bit of craftsmanship. I'm floored, really.
Hi Charles--Paul does do incredible work, whether in miniture or full size. Ok, a bit of tool drool first...
View Image
As much as I liked my #112 LN scraper plane, as much as I never had a problem with it taking shavings even with the thick blade--hook and no hook--I still sold it.
Without a hook, I used it on extremely hard timber. Blade actually positioned tilting back at about 85-80 degrees and set very lightly. On softer hardwoods, I used a hook with the blade canted forward.
However I hated sharpening and prepping that thick blade. I really did. When I used a LV scraper plane that I could bow the thin blade like my #80, I decided a thick blade was a detriment to quick work. The thin blade is prepped much quicker, replacement blades are .50 cent garage sale hand saws (or in my case off 400 foot long rolls...).
As long as I am coming to the party late and didn't read or follow Paul's links, I want to mention the concept behind his scraper insert for the wider bench planes is I think an excellent idea. Many, many times on large tops where I have had reversing or interlocked grain I used my #6 with a 40 (or so) degree bevel and the iron positioned bevel up. It did an good job of finishing off those wide and long tops, but I had to have it set very lightly.
I could get more aggressive with the scraper planes, but felt the short sole was undoing what I had strove for--a flat as can be surface.
Take care, Mike
One of the things I like about the kit plow I bought from Paul (that's mine in the picture) is its heft. The thing does plow with ease due to the weight. Because of its size, though, it is actually very balanced. I don't think "balanced" is the right word I was looking for...but its close.
But then, I have a plow problem...
Take care, Mike
back to the shop...
Charles,
Don't feel bad, I had never heard of Paul before either. I did see this on Ebay a few nights ago and put 2 and 2 together and realized this was the same Paul Hamler that was posting on this thread.
So, in case you're interested in owning one of these beauties:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300145496291&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020
Lee
Paul,
The plough plane looks fantastic and I think your scraper plane insert for bedrock planes is a great idea and hope to try it one day. The spring seems to be an excellent logical idea
Since almost anything can be hand planed except perhaps complex veneered surfaces, (too risky), my use of scraper planes is limited to this one task.
best wishes,
David
Paul mentions the need to experiment and I believe this is important as we often have individual requirements and use diverse timbers these days.There should be no fear of re-inventing the wheel.
I am sure Paul's vastly improved insert scraper is a winner. I like the concept of an insert, especially as there are vast herds of Stanley types out there which are sitting idle, littering Patrick Leaches's web site, adorning shop shelves etc, when they could be quickly converted to a new life.
That is why I got one of those scraper inserts from L/Valley, despite clamours that it was pos (er, not good).
I read the instructions,carried them out and then experimented with other blade thicknesses etc. See some pictures. No problem scraping nasties like Wenge etc.
You can also see one burnisher (or ticketer) I made using a needle from a needle bearing, squeezed into a piece of brass rod.
I don't see it as a useless item by any means, even though I still am in love with the ordinary hand held card scraper.Philip Marcou
Edited 9/1/2007 11:09 pm by philip
Philip,
I must have missed that scraper insert in the LV catalog. Judging from your photos, it looks as if the blade and cap iron stay in the plane while the scraper insert is in use? Do you have to remove the chipbreaker, or adjust the frog to open the throat for it's use?
Thanks,
Lee
Lee--and Philip,
Lee, here's the link to the LV instructions. Probably will let you know all you need to...http://www.leevalley.com/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=41669
Philip--you do know Paul was the inventor of the original prototype of the LV insert? Yep, he was.
It's been available for quite some itme. Paul's new one looks to take the idea into a completely different realm (whether or not the LV one works).
Take care, Mike
I can confirm that the veritas scraper plane insert worked well enough when set up, reviewed it in F&C when it was fairly new, but it was not well made and a bugger to set up.
Paul's new device is going to be infinitely better.
Best wishes David
Charles,
Yes, it is awfully nice. Maybe Paul will post some pictures of some of his other work for us to see?
Lee
Here are some the wonderful things Paul makes:http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Hamler.htm
And his blog web site:http://hamlertools.blogspot.com/
Take care, Mike
Hey Mike,
Thanks for the link. Very interesting read!
Lee
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