Help with information on table saws
Hello!
I am looking to purchase a table saw. I know that older table saws can sometimes be both cheaper and better quality than current models, so I’ve been looking at local Facebook marketplace ads.
I think I have found a few that could be good deals but don’t know a lot, and this forum keeps popping up when searching so I thought I’d join and ask.
The ones I’ve found so far are a:
1. Craftsman 113.299510 (w Exact-I-Rip fence) – 200$
^ Has two wings with holes, the cut guard
2. Craftsman 113.298032 – 125$
^ Has two solid wings and maybe the stock fence.
3. Craftsman something – 50$
^ motor looks similar to both the above models. Has two solid wings and maybe the stock fence.
4. Craftsman something – 100$
^ motor looks similar to both the above models. Has two wings with holes, and maybe the stock fence.
Replies
You need to define more closely what you want of a tablesaw. Models for basic carpentry in softwood are not the same as basic models for handling full size sheets of ply and similar; and cutting very precise parts for fine furniture will need some other basic TS abilities again, mainly in terms of precision and adjustability.
In three decades of furniture making as a hobby, I've found that it would have been nice to have had the hindsight as foresight when buying tools. The least expensive is not a good criteria for obtaining tools that will work well, last and serve all your (probably growing) needs. Ask me how I know this. :-)
Buying second hand machines without a chance to see and feel them in-the-metal is entering a lottery. You may not win the prize of a machine that'll work well, serve your needs and not cost a fortune in cash and time to put right.
In short, be sure what you want to buy in terms of its abilities, functions and qualities then buy the very best example you can find the cash for.
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One recommendation I would give is: avoid the traditional unisaw-style cabinet saws and similar but smaller benchtop designs in favour of something with a sliding carriage, so it'll do precise cross-cutting as well as ripping without the need to build endless jigs of MDF. In addition, try to find one that allows precise micrometer adjustments to both the rip and the cross-cut fences.
The US doesn't seem to have a lot of such saws in the market, unlike the European market. Nevertheless .....
Lataxe
Thank you for your reply. It has given me some good things to think about.
I am likely not going to be building high quality furniture anytime soon. I will mainly be using it for ripping sheets of plywood, mdf, or similar wood for things like subwoofer enclosures, garage shelves to start with.
Then I am going to move onto some smaller projects like bookshelves and maybe an end table or two. These more "finished' projects will utilize softwoods (pine, poplar, cedar, etc) as they are easier to obtain and cheaper to buy more of when I inevitably do something wrong.
The reason for a table saw is to speed up the ripping process so I can do it faster than using my circular saw and kreg jig, but I'm also hoping to DIY a better jig thats closer to a tracksaw jig for the circular.
I do not anticipate making anything initially with hardwoods, or really small pieces, until I am more comfortable with woodworking in general. Also since I plan to build this into a rollable table (yet to build), dust should be minimized to outside and my lungs when I breath it in lol.
Based upon the sheet goods projects you are planning, I like your idea of making a DIY jig that gets your circular saw closer to the capabilities of a track saw. I used this method before purchasing my track saw with good results. Find a DIY "track jig" that captures the circular saw so it will not wander while making the cut. Also make the first cut on the jig to establish the edge of the guide for future cuts. Buy a sheet of foam insulation board as a sacrificial board to minimize tear-out on the backside.
I now have a SawStop cabinet saw and Festool track-saw and the track-saw is my weapon of choice for breaking down and ripping plywood until the parts are small. I use parallel guides to get repeatable results but there are DIY solutions for that.
If I was starting out purchasing tools again I'd focus on a good workbench, good hand tools and for power tools start with a circular saw or track saw, a bandsaw 14"+ (not the type that expands with riser blocks) and eventually a planer or jointer / planer combo for milling soft or hard woods. The table saw would be far down on my list of purchases because of the space footprint requirements. Even if money is not a constraint, space is usually a limiting factor. I would not consider a used table saw that did not have modern safety features.
P.S. Don't forget about good dust collection. Another advantage for hand tools.
P.P.S. In my mind for a new woodworker, the best expenditure for $100 would be a subscription to FineWoodworking Unlimited. That's what I did with the print edition many years ago.
Enjoy the journey!
Lax has listed a number of important things to consider when buying a used table saw. As mentioned, it will depend on what you plan to make, and I will add how much room you have for tools. I believe the Craftsman saws are relatively small and will generate a lot of dust that is hard to control. If you plan to make things that do not require exact cuts like kids toys, they will be fine. If you drift off to things that require precise components, it will be less useful.
I have a 3hp table saw with extended fence, no sliding carriage. I do not 'usually' do a lot of ply work and if I did I would consider a track saw. I have three slider sleds for cross cut use. One is a panel sled, one runner, used for cabinet panels, not that precise. The next one is a two track sled that is centered, 'pretty' accurate, and used for repeated cuts like rail and stiles. The last one is also two track, very accurate and used for tenon shoulders.
The last large ply work I did was a 30 x 70 walnut ply used for a desktop with walnut aprons. I needed very crisp edges to meet the aprons so I took it outside, set it on saw horses an cut to approximate size with my circular saw. Then I set attached a fence and used a router to get the desired trim, worked fine.
Woodworking is problem solving, working with available assets to produce your end result. Have fun.
Thank you. You've given me some things to research as I'd not considered cross cut sleds that I'd need to build/buy, assuming I can't find one like the previous poster mentioned.
That is not ‘’old’’ enough to make it in the category of older is better. It was a low cost light duty saw that will cut sheet goods and softwood but struggle with hardwoods . The table and guide are decent but at the heart is a plastic frame and a direct drive universal motor that requires the occasional reset when it overheats. In that price range it will be hard to find better unless you find a delta contractor saw with external motor and steel frame of older vintage. There is little risk at buying these units as you can sell them back at the same price if you dislike it.
I know you did not ask about safety but based on your question the following is important ... you don't want to learn this the hard way
Make sure your table saw has a Riving Knife and Zero Clearance Inserts.
Look at Sawstop. They are significantly more money than what you mentioned but obviously much safer.
Make a few different style push sticks and never let your fingers get within 6" of the blade.
Almost any table saw will do what you want. You are also not losing much money if those don't. With care and awareness of where your fingers are, all those suggested will do the job.
You can do a simple test on the saw before accepting it.
Try to cut a piece of 18mm MDF with it - run a good edge against the fence. You need to cut about 3" into the MDF, but not all the way through. Stop the blade in the cut. If the blade is loose in the cut, there is too much wobble in the blade, otherwise if the cut is the same width as the blade, it's running true enough.
The 'older is better' is a huge myth. In general, for the same price, you will get better old iron than new, but the cheapest modern saws come with significant safety features absent from older designs. They are not that much more expensive than what you are looking at:
https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-Jobsite-Compact-4-Inch-DWE7485/dp/B0842QDW95 is a superb saw.
You can see that for maybe $250 extra you are getting a LOT more saw.
- Riving knife to stop kickback.
- Guard to protect fingers. Always use it when you can.
- More power
- Warranty.
- Accurate and very solid fence.
About the only down side is that this is the 'baby' version with a smaller blade. It will cut just over 2" which can be limiting if you get into bigger things but it is fine for almost all woodwork. A full cabinet saw will usually manage 3" and more expensive saws can cut a full 4". I made do with a similar size saw for over 20 years.
These saws are very easy to set into a shop made cabinet to provide greater capacity. They are lightweight and easy to move around if you need to and will be easy to sell on later.
If you can get a 'proper' cabinet saw for that money then it's going to be a bit better, but it will be big and heavy (think 200Kg +) Big saws are safer and much more pleasant to use, especially where absolute precision and faster production is required but you can always sell your compact saw and move on later. For what you want to do, the small saw now, bigger saw later is the most sensible option.
I now use a big sliding saw. I love my Hammer K3 but it's a big beast and horribly expensive (IRO USD 5000) Can't fault the ease of use for most things (bevels though are not easy) and the 4" cut depth comes in handy on a farm. It's not really what you need right now!
Your looking at $100 table saws so I assume that's your budget so I won't bother suggesting you buy a Felder or a Martin or a Sawstop or some such thing. I think I know the Craftsman models your looking at. They weren't particularly good table saws but they weren't absolutely terrible either. I mean there are alot of saws that should never have been built. The universal motor will however rip your ears off! There were much older craftsman models that were better than that generation.
The fence matters so you want a saw with a good solid ,easy to move, adjust and LOCK fence. I wouldn't consider anything that uses anything less than a 10" blade. Someone suggested a Delta or Rockwell contractor saw and I have to agree. They are a step below a cabinet saw but they work all day, have enough power to handle hardwoods and are heavy and beefy enough to not tip on you on longer stock. The stock fence that came with them was adequate. You might be able to find one somewhere close to your budget. A cabinet saw would be the thing and in spite of someone's suggestion that you should avoid them some of the finest woodworkers that ever lived never had anything more than that. A Delta unisaw, or a Powermatic 66 might be had for about $500 and maybe above your budget but to oldschool guys ,such as myself ,they were state of the art! As for safety, never have your blade protrude more than half a thumb above the thickness of the board your cutting and keep your freaking hands away from the blade and you'll be fine!
The 113. saws are Emerson made and can be of a good quality if made before the 80s. I would take cast iron wings over web framed wings any day. I made a lot of furniture on my 113. saw with a good aftermarket fence, painful attention to alignment, and remembering that it is, after all, a contractor saw. Using a $100 saw with $300 worth of add-ons can work very well for 90 degree cuts. High accuracy bevel cuts are always problematic on contractor saws due to the design but there are other ways to make these. JMHO
The tablesaw is a central workhorse in any shop. The capabilities are endless. I suspect that after you purchase your tablesaw you are going to become hooked on woodworking which will then lead you down the path of wanting to do more. Used tablesaws will likely need some tuning up so I don't know if you want to deal with that. As always it's usually better to spend a little more to get a quality tool that will last. I have a 3hp powermatic that is very good but I do not know your budget.