Replies

1. 
   Jimmbo | Aug 19, 2004 03:05pm | #1

   I can't report from experience with those machines, but I do believe I saw a FWW issue comparing 4 or 5 of the combo machines, describing set up time, etc..  That would have been within the past 18 months or so.  Seems like you would pick up space by having the jointer and planer built in, and the mortiser is likely an addition to your shop.   For me, a lot would turn on whether the jointer and planer in the combo were an upgrade over what I had, in which case the benefits would be considerable.  If not, then it's about the sliding table ... and I'm not sure that caries the price tag.  Reports I've heard from users of the combo machines are generally positive though.  Good luck with your decision -

2. 
   Quickstep | Aug 19, 2004 06:40pm | #2

   I have the Unisaw and the Delta 8" planer and like them both. I also looked at combo machines, but the ones I looked at either didn't have long beds on the jointer, or required setup to go from saw to jointer, or cost too much. Most of the time, my next step after the jointer is to the table saw. I wouldn't want to have to perform a setup process to make the switch.

3. 
   forestgirl | Aug 20, 2004 12:04am | #3

   [Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like you're asking about the European combo models]  OK, that being said, there was an article late last year I believe that review the classier European saw models with the sliding tables etc.  I'm at work right now, but I'll try to find it tonight.  I don't believe it was FWW, but really can't remember.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   Sww93 | Aug 20, 2004 12:50am | #5

   Thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry.  If you could give a lead on that article it would certainly help.

   Scott

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 21, 2004 12:00am | #11

   Hi Scott, sorry something came up last night and I lost my free hour, but tonight's a laid-back time, so I will find that article (it was published just last year).  I seem to remember that not all the saws were outasight $$-wise, and the better design and production convinced me they'd be worth looking at.

   Remember, I'm on the West Coast, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 21, 2004 08:41am | #13

   Hi Scott, I found it.  The article is by Kelly Mehler, and is in the April 2003 edition of Woodworker's Journal (Vol. 27, #2).  He used and reviewed 9 different cabinet saws, American and European, and gave his assement of all of them.  I'm really running out of steam here (long day).  Drop me an email (click on my name above) and we can figure out whether I should just summarize or if you'd like a copy of the article.  It is a very informative article! with good specifics and general tips on selecting a cabinet saw.

   Thanks, too, for giving me the impetus to get my unsorted magazines into their boxes.  This one was filed, but I have several dozen others that weren't, LOL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

4. 
   bakesale1 | Aug 20, 2004 12:14am | #4

   I have the Inca 12" cabinet saw and am extremely happy with it.  It comes with European style riving knife and crown guard as well as a microadjustable fence that allows for the short rip fence.  But the arbor is long enough to accept dado blades.  No sliding table though.

   I've often seen them for sale on Ebay and Jesse at Eagle Tools in LA also sells refurbished ones. 

5. 
   CRAIGCONEY_M | Aug 20, 2004 08:12am | #6

   I have  a cabinet saw with 7' rails.  I purchased the festool plunge saw to handle cuts of sheet goods.  In addition, I have the 32mm system, guides, their routers, multi function table, and doweling/dovetial system. There isn't much that I am not able to do.  I work in a 33x22 shop and things get real tight sometimes.  With a slider, I would only consider a 10' slider. this means that you'd need at least 21 ft to operate your saw.   If you get a shorter one, you will want a longer one.  it seems that the capacity of your machines always ends up being 2" too short.  If you get a slider, check on a scoring  blade option or upgrade.

   Another factor to consider is working on a slider.  You  will need to adapt your methods on the new machine.  I only have expereince on commercial grade sliders, and have heard only stories from people who own Laguna TS with slider.   Based on some of the issues, I would not buy one.  I'm not saying they are bad, but I just wouldn't want to spend my time dealing with some of the issues.  Some sliders will not handle a dado set either.

   Another option is adding a sliding table to your cabinet saw. I believe Excaliber and Grizzly sell them. 

   Based on the size of your shop, I think you may find a slider being a bit cramped once you start to use it.  Just my opinion. 

6. 
   nikkiwood | Aug 20, 2004 09:07am | #7

   If you are looking at table saw only machines, I suspect it would be difficult to find performance differences with the European saws that would justify their additional cost over domestic top-of-line models -- e.g. Delta Unisaw or the Powermatic 66.

   If indeed, you are considering the Euro combo machines, that is a whole different kettle of fish. They are not discussed around these forums very much. Either their owners are quiet types, or the high price of the combos means there aren't a lot of them out there.

   So, it would be helpful if you told us more about your thinking etc.

7. 
   shopdoc | Aug 20, 2004 11:01am | #8

         My wife must have sustained a similar injury ! For my birthday in January she said I should go ahead and get the Laguna TSS that I had been drooling over for the past few years . I've had it in operation for about 6 months now and couldn't be happier with it . It does everything as advertised and the issues that a few other buyers complained about on the Laguna discussion site turned out to be non-issues after applying a little common sense. The sliding table fence is easy to set up and square to the blade and only takes seconds to re-install, and has remained square . I still take a moment to check it each time with a framing square but so far no change . The scoring blade is sweet and I don't know how I ever got along without one when cross cutting plywood or just cutting melamine . Contrary to what some people have said the sliding table works very wel with a dadoe set and the shaft has a removabe collar to allow plenty of length for the dadoe set. Cutting up the plywood for the kitchen I'm currently working on ( 18 sheets of 3/4" ) took a little over half a day , by myself , and every piece was dead on square and not one chipped edge! So far the only complaints I've had are the location of the switch ( directly under the sliding table ) and the dust collection hookup which I modified and am still not completely happy with. My previous saw was a General 350 with an Excalibur sliding crosscut table and the Laguna outclasses it by many miles.

                                                                               Steve

1. 
   nikkiwood | Aug 20, 2004 10:40pm | #10

   Steve,

   In an earlier post I said that the with the price differential, European TS probably not be worth the investment over their domestic competitors (Unisaw, Powermatic 66, in particular).

   I note that your new Laguna has the sliding table and the scoring blade set up, which of course, puts this saw on a higher level.

   But I'd like to know your comment on my assumption that the Euros (without the ST and the scoring blade) don't deliver enough better performance to justify their higher price.

   After your 6 months with Laguna, you're in a good position to know...........

   thanks.

8. 
   mudman | Aug 20, 2004 05:55pm | #9

   I have a Unisaw and love it. I would like to have a saw with a scoring blade, but cant afford it. The sliding tables dont really take up more space than a regular setup. You dont need the long rails on a slider. The only reason to have 7 foot rails is to cut sheet goods on the right side of the blade...... with a slider you use the left side and don't even need a fence! Most sliders only have a 24" or 36" fence. You also wont need the huge outfeed table. My outfeed table more than doubles the size of the saw! The slider only takes up 20 feet (actually it is more like 15 feet) when you are using it, other wise it is parked in the middle position. Because of this it is a shorter walk around the machine, a nice thing during a long day of cutting carcases. Ive spent time in a well equiped Euro shop and that guy had greater capicity in less space than any where else Ive seen. Over all a good Euro table saw will save space and allow you to work faster, safer and better. Of course I am very proud of my American made cast iron monsters! They are the only American products I have.

   Mike

   please excuse my spelling.
9. 
   hammer1 | Aug 21, 2004 02:07am | #12

   You need to look at the type of work that you will be doing. You also need to look at the way you do things or are comfortable doing it. The sliders are hardly comparable to a 10" cabinet saw. If you are in the business and process sensitive sheet goods day in and day out you will love a slider. If you make jewelry boxes you would like a small saw. We had a large Attendorf in one shop, we all used the cabinet saws for general work. The slider was cutting plywood all day anyway.

   There isn't much comparison with price either. Have you gone to the Laguna web site and browsed the message board? From what I've seen, I would go with the Unisaw and a bunch of blades and accessories.

10. 
    migraine | Aug 23, 2004 09:42am | #14

    I have owned a few sliding table saws one 50" plus one 96"scmi(basically same as minimax)along with running some other really large saws while working for other companies.  The biggest thing to know is that some of the machines that are in the low end lack some quality in the mechanical/machining.  Such as small trunions mounted to the botttom of the table.  Most of these sliding saw are not designed for using wth a datto set, so keep this in mind.   In my opinion, a scoring blade is not necessary unless you are planning on doing lot of panel processing.  A good carbide blade with the correct geometry will usually take care of most chipping on the bottom 

    At this moment, I have just installed a jet sliding table($700) on my powermatic model66 and it seems to be good.  Much better than a excaliber.   Biggest thing to get used to is the bar that sticks out in front of the saw.  Look at the Jet saw with the slider attachment.  Might be in you budget 

    Still wish I had the 50 slide saw(EMA), even over the 96" scmi.  I sold it to a friend when I bought the SCMI.  It's now 15 yrs old, needed a little work recently, and he loves it and won't sell it back to me... darn.  The EMA was VERY tempermental.  the SCMI was a pain.  In the future, if I was to need a larger slide saw, I would go with a verticle panel saw.  At the last woodworking show in Anaheim, there seem to be alot of companies starting to compete for the entry level market.  Hammer was one of them, along with Laguna, and MiniMax.  These are the only ones I can remember at this time.

    An as to you comment about "The sales people I have spoken with assure me that their particular model is the best",  sounds like you were talking to Laguna.  Don't get me going on THOSE guys.  Sometimes I think some of the posts from new members are Laguna employees trying to hype their product.  But then again, maybe(probably) I'm paranoid

1. 
   Fingrs | Aug 23, 2004 04:18pm | #15

   Has anyone heard anything lately about the SawStop TS?  It has a scoring blade, I believe.  I don't know where they're made or if they're shipping yet.

   BTW, do not buy this saw if you plan to cut hot dogs.  When completing any project, due diligence in the removal of non-decorative pencil marks, tooling marks, and blood stains is strongly suggested.

1. 
   mudman | Aug 23, 2004 06:59pm | #16

   Last months (or this months) FWW. The saw is made in Taiwan, along with all the other good brands. The did not mention a price.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

2. 
   AlanWS | Aug 23, 2004 09:52pm | #17

   My info on the Sawstop is just from their website at http://www.sawstop.com . They still describe orders as "preorders", though they have nice looking detailed photos of "production" cabinet saws. I don't think it has a scoring blade. It has a riving knife, which is a better version of a splitter that moves up and down with the blade so it can be set to stay close behind the blade where it's most effective.

   Edited 8/23/2004 2:55 pm ET by AlanS

11. 
    scooter1 | Aug 23, 2004 11:15pm | #18

    I have a Delta Unisaw, afer wearing out a couple contractors saws. I love mine. Get an HTC rolling stand and the HTC outfeed table, and get the Benchdog router table set up for one of your wings. Put an extra long twist lock cord on it, too. Thats my rig.

    Regards,

    Boris

    "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

12. 
    MyTacoma | Aug 31, 2004 01:13pm | #19

    I'm a little late with a response, but I have an SC4W with 5.5' slider in my 12x20 shop. It's a fairly large machine compared to American-style saws. If you're short on money and space, just get a cabinet saw like the General 350 and build bunch of jigs. As for 5:1 combos, I would avoid them if you can unless you're severely tight on space, are a highly organized/clean person, or you're incredibly methodical about the sequence of cutting/jointing/planing, etc... I also have the FS35 jointer/planer combo, Works well in the tight space, but sometimes wish I had seperate machines. I just don't have the space.

    Have you posted your questions on the Mini Max forum? People there tend to be a little too proud, but you can gather good information for your research.

1. 
   Sww93 | Aug 31, 2004 01:52pm | #20

   Thank you for responding.  I am also considering the SC4W saw.  Since I do a lot of different kinds of woodworking; cabinets, bookcases seemingly for monthes straight, then I will be doing intricate smaller tables and the like, is this saw appropriate? Then there is the issue of not being able to have a dado set available on the saw.  How have you handled that? 

    I quess I am trying to purchase the best/safest precision  table saw I can find, with a limited budget of around $5,000.00 - $6,000.00.  These europeon saws seem to have merit, but when considering the price versus American cabinet saws, I can upgrade far more tools in my shop "buying American" for the same money.

   Then there is the problem of making the purchase sight on seen.  At least with the American saws I have access locally where I can inspect, touch and feel the quality of the machines.  These european saws I must select from a small photo, read a brief description, and trust the sales/marketing department.  This has become a HUGE headache for me so far.  Can you tell me what are the advantages and or disadvantages between the european saws and their American counterparts?

   Thank you,

   Scott

1. 
   MarkRoderick | Aug 31, 2004 06:22pm | #21

   No one has really mentioned this so far, but the main advantage of the european saws seems to be safety. One, they have the riving knife that you never have to remove. Two, they have a shorter rip fence. Three, they have much better dust collection.

   From what I've seen, the better european saws are also made to much tighter tolerances than their North American counterparts. I once looked at high-end Felder at a show and it's just an unbelievably well-made piece of equipment, in fact my thought was that it's better-made than any woodworking machine needs to be. But if you like that kind of thing you would be amazed at the difference between the standard Unisaw design and one of those things. Like a Ferrari to a Ford Pinto.

   To compare apples to apples as far as cost is concerned, you have to look at the aftermarket stuff that you don't have to add to the european sliders, like the cross-cutting jig.

   I've been thinking about the Rojek for a few years but still use the old benchtop Delta I inherited from my grandfather, which I have built into a table saw with Biesemeyer, etc.

   As others have said, once you get into the combination machines that another whole story.

2. 
   AlanTurner | Aug 31, 2004 07:03pm | #23

   Scott,

   I have the Uni, with the Uni slider, and would not recommend the uni slider. My Uni is 1992, and is OK, but not perfect. Were I in the market today with your sized shop, I think I would go with the General 10" cab. saw, and the Exactor slider. I saw it set up at a show, demo'd by the owner of Exactor, and it is a very fine aftermakket product. And, I am of the view that the General is a better made saw today than either the Uni or the new PM 66. You should be at about $2500 or so with this combination, which leaves a budget (maybe) for a jointer/planer combo from Europe. I think with a digital readout on the planer, allowing repeatability, the combo would not be a PITA. Esp. if it had the powered table height adjustment. The costs on this latter set-up I do not know.

   Just to confuse you, I would also look at the used market. I have a 1925 or so 12" jointer that I would not trade. Long bed, dead on, very sturdy (prox 1500#). Put the Byrd head on it and it is great. Tear out is a thing of the past, even with figured tropicals.Alan

   http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com

3. 
   MyTacoma | Sep 01, 2004 01:15am | #26

   Scott, as you probably already know, the SC4W goes for around $6,000 with $300 for shipping. It's a lot of money if you're not bringing in income from your woodworking.

   This is my livelyhood so I'm able to justify the cost for the convenience of having a tablesaw with an outrigger for crosscutting and slider for ripping large boards. I had originally looked at Felder's K700 pro, but it's price was something like $7,500, with a 3-4 month wait, and no scoring unit. I honestly feel that for a small shop, the Felder is an overkill. As for dado, I don't utilize that joint as much. I cut sliding dovetails, or when needed, use a router for dado. The panel saw excels at cutting large sheet goods. There's nothing wrong with a traditional cabinet saw with a makeshift sled and out feed tables. Most professional woodworkers use standard cabinet saws and produce some of the most beautiful woodworks using old-fashion techniques -- hand tools. Except for Kelly Mehler, I haven't seen too many Felder owners producing the same quality work with their saws. Can anybody direct me to a good source? My point is Euro saws are engineered for convenience, and will not necessarily make you a better woodworker. As for safety, if you're careless, you'll get hurt no matter kind of tool you use.

   Anyway I like the cabinet saw for it's power, compactness and simplicity of its design and function. Sure you have outrigger and slider on Euro-style saws, but you still have to build various jigs in order to perform odd tasks.

   Overall I really enjoy using my SC4W. Here are some negative points: orage blade guard w/dust extractor port needs to be redesigned. It mounts on the riving knife and can't be moved up or down. It doesn't pick up all the dust. If I don't use it, with only the main port operating, quite a bit of dust shoots back at you. The alumnium rip fence should also be redesigned. It flexes a bit and it's not smooth as a Biesmeyer.

   Perhaps you might look into SC3 or an older saw from any of the manufacturers? The CU300 combo does take dado, but it's out of your price range.

   Here's a good site for saw comparison:

   http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/CabinetVersusEuroSaw/cabinetversuseurosaw.html

1. 
   Sww93 | Sep 02, 2004 03:46am | #29

   Thank you for the link for Europeon vs. American saw, it was helpful.  I am really leaning, at this juncture, toward the SC4W. 

   It seems that as far as the europeon style saws go, the Minimax and obviously the Felder, although in different spectrums in regards to pricing and precision, are the way to go. 

   How is the installation and set up manual for the Minimax?  Is the saw hard to tune and keep tuned?  Does the sliding table require periodic inspection to insure that it is running true and square?  How do you move it around the shop, and if it is in a dedicated spot was it difficult to get it in?  I would hate to have it delivered (you know it will rain) and then have to go rent a pallet jack or fork lift to move it.

   Scott

1. 
   nicobie | Sep 02, 2004 05:06am | #30

   Why don't you try the Minimax-usa forum on yahoo?  Lots of people ask questions like that. Most are polite too.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986

2. 
   MyTacoma | Sep 02, 2004 01:05pm | #31

   Installation is pretty easy and straight forward. It's just matter of attaching the outfeed and extension tables, and the rip fence rail/guide. The manual stinks. Horrible translation, but it's much better than my MM 16. That came with no manual. I think Mini Max hires Taiwanese to translate their documents.

   The saw is very easy to tune. I believe from my recollection everything was set at the factory except the outrigger, and rip fence of course. Everything stays pretty set and shouldn't have to keep checking things. I'd go over everything just as a procedure. One thing though is my crosscut fence is set at the fore of the outrigger instead of the aft, and ocassionally it gets out of square when I put too much pressure on it. I check that once a week. The miter gauge is quite difficult to mount on the slider. It's one of the largest miter gauges I've seen. I think it weighs 30 lbs. The older version used to mount on the top of slider, but now it goes on the side track.

   The machine weighs 950 lbs. and doesn't move. There's no mobility kit for this machine. MM recommends calling HTC or geting a hand truck. I stuck some furniture moving disks under the machine just so I could glide it into it's permanent spot. Strangely it has a concrete block in the main compartment that's suppose to reduce vibration. Another weird thing is that for a heavy-duty machine, it's got some pretty delicate switches.

   If you get the lift gate service, the delivery guy might help you wheel it into your shop. The path to my shop is grass so I dragged the whole thing into my shop with a comealong and took it off the pallet. If it rains just cover it up with a tarp. I live in Seattle so rain just happens all the time for many months. If you live in Florida, get inside the saw. It's the safest place.

   Also you need to purchase a cord and a plug. I believe it's 10 gauge. I use twist lock for all my 220v.

   Here are some pics I shot for documentation. I was finishing up my shop when it was delivered.

   Good luck, and let me know how you progress.

   
3. 
   MarkRoderick | Sep 02, 2004 03:30pm | #32

   You should really look at the Rojek as well. I think it's very good value for the money. Sold in the US by a company called Techmark.

4. 
   DJK | Sep 02, 2004 04:13pm | #33

   MiniMax for sale http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/machinery.pl?read=360253

5. 
   MyTacoma | Sep 02, 2004 11:56pm | #34

   That's a pretty good deal for a production saw. Unfortunately the S315 is about the size of a car and weighs like one too.

   If you compare the Rojek to Mini Max SC4W, you have to compare it to PK300A (panel saw) rather than the less expensive PK300V (tablesaw with slider attachment). SC4W and PK300A are nearly the same price. I've never used a Rojek, but it seems like a very good brand.

   
13. 
    MatthewSchenker | Aug 31, 2004 06:33pm | #22

    Sww93,

    I was in your shoes not too long ago. I wanted a slider because they are simply made better and have superior safety to any North American saw on the market today. But I opted against a slider because of shop size limitations, and because I discovered an equivalent cutting system (I'll get to that in a minute).

    One thing I would suggest is going to a woodworking show and getting your hands on an actual slider. I recently looked at the Felder sliders and they are beautiful. But when you see them up close, you start to realize how big they are. The sliders with 8' capacity would take up almost all the room in your shop. I have a shop that measures 20'x40' and it would be a squeeze.

    I decided instead to go with the Festool system. With the Festool plunge saw, cutting guides, and their cutting table, I have been able to rip full sheet goods to exact dimensions very easily. You put the guide down, and rip along the cut line. Nice and clean, and with the riving knife it's really safe. In addition, I have the Festool cutting table for cross cuts, which can also be used for all sorts of sanding and routing operations. The saw is hooked up to the Festool dust collector, which picks up 95%+ of the dust, which is really important. The price of the Festool plunge-cut, guides, cutting table, and dust collector is under $1,500. That's less than a standard Unisaw, and you get greater accuracy, 95%+ dust collection, and reliable safety.

    It might sound like I have an affiliation with Festool, but I don't! Just a happy customer. I only bring up Festool because you are obviously looking for a more elegant system if you are in the market for a Euro slider. For me, Festool offers a lot of the same accuracy and safety as Euro machines.

    If you are interested in Euro sliders, check out the Felder Owners Group, on yahoo. Here's the link:

    http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/

    if you are interested in Festool systems, here's their link:

    http://www.festool-usa.com/

    
    

    ---

    Edited 8/31/2004 11:41 am ET by Matthew Schenker

14. 
    nicobie | Aug 31, 2004 08:36pm | #24

    My Minimax SC-2 with 50" slider and scoring blade takes up less floor space than my old cabinet saw with 44" ripping cap. to right of blade and out feed table. With the Minimax I can cross cut a 48" sheet of ply 60" long (60" cap. to left of blade). It is truly a one man operation cutting heavy MDF. I just pull the wood from my truck directly onto the saw. The slider supports it and the ball bearings make it a breeze to push the panel thru the blade.I get straight square cuts every time.

    Because the workpiece is clamped to the slider it's more of a machining operation that eliminates 'operator error'.

    One of the problems with add on sliding tables is that the slider isn't right next to the blade. That cuts down on your options. They also don't work as smooth and have support beams that tend to get in your way and take up even more floor space.

    When I first bought the saw I thought it might be overkill. After using it for a year, I'd never go back.

    Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

    Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986

1. 
   MarkRoderick | Aug 31, 2004 09:35pm | #25

   Do you mind my asking what you paid? Did it involve a mortgage on your kids?

1. 
   nicobie | Sep 01, 2004 07:52pm | #27

   I got really, really lucky. I found the saw at a auction. It was built in 2000 but never used or even set up. I was told the guy went broke before even opening for business. It was missing a few pieces, fence, aux. table, telescoping mitre and clamp. I made a fence and table, traded for the mitre bar (thanx again Art Liebeskind) and bought a clamp from Minimax.

   I paid $1200 at the auction and put another $400 into it for the missing pieces.

   It's probably the best tool I own. However the MM16 bandsaw is a close second.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986

1. 
   MarkRoderick | Sep 01, 2004 08:00pm | #28

   Wow. You are a lucky guy.