Replies

1. 
   WayneL5 | Sep 16, 2003 10:13pm | #1

   In my opinion the floor doesn't make as much difference as people think.  Wood is not that much springier than concrete.

   I'd start with good shoes.  Not heavy work boots with hard, flat bottoms, but a good athletic shoe with lots of cushioning and which rolls smoothly when you walk, not slapping down like stiff shoe.

   Also look at your body postion as you work.  Are you bending over because your work is too low?  Do you twist your trunk when you're also bent over, like lifting something from your side instead of square on?  When standing in one place, putting one foot up on something realigns the spine and makes standing more comfortable.  (That's why bars have foot rails -- to keep customers comfortable and buying longer.)  When sitting are you bent over too far because there is no overhang on the bench you could scoot up close under?  Do you walk all over the shop because your tools are not where you use them?

   Since you said your pain is "severe" you should discuss it with your doctor.  If it doesn't get better, maybe consult a sports medicine physician, or have an ergonomist watch you work in your shop.

   I don't think the floor is nearly as important as your body position as you work all day long.

1. 
   Elcoholic | Sep 16, 2003 10:51pm | #2

   Mats help some and so do good shoes.  Doc Martin's help me much more with standing than athletic shoes.  Athletic shoes are designed more for dynamic loading from doing ... athletics.  I guess that's why they call them athletic shoes in the first place.  I've also found that doing some stretching of the lower back, buttocks and calves helps alot for the few minutes it takes.  Also get your machines and benches up to a comfortable height.  I put 4" under my table saw and it helped a bunch.  Even with all that I still have the usual aches and pains associated with a 47 year old that sits behind a computer all week and hits the shop nights and weekends.  Failing all that go to Cosco and get a big bottle of Ibuprofin and crankup Ventilator Blues off Exile on Main Street.  It's kind of an anthem for me now.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

2. 
   jc21 | Sep 17, 2003 12:40am | #4

   I'll have to disagree some. Body position is very important as is footwear but there's nothing worse on the back, knees, and other body joints than a concrete floor. If you don't have problems, a concrete floor will hasten the day when you do. I've worked on both and there is no comparision. I've had two knee surgeries and then a total knee replacement. Jim Clark should pay a visit to his doctor and at some point, a good orthopaedic person. If he has an existing condition, the concrete floors will only excerbate the condition. Time for sleepers and a wood floor imho. For me, concrete floors turn an eight hour day into twelve.

2. 
   forestgirl | Sep 17, 2003 12:23am | #3

   Guaranteed, concrete is the worst thing to be standing or walking on for prolonged periods (my feet are very unhappy after spending an hour at HD, with their concrete floors).

   That being said, however, the kind of multi-body-part pain you're experiencing bespeaks of more than just a hard-surface problem.  Over the years, I've had both back problems and foot problems, and a fair amount of experience going through diagnoses and treatment.  Anything from posture problems, to back problems to plantar fasciitis can cause, over a period of time, pain in all the places you mentioned. 

   As far as flooring goes, I like the interlocking mats sold in auto parts stores and membership stores like Costco.  They are softer and "bouncier" that livestock floors, which are a much harder material reinforced with fibers or whatever to stand up to the hooves.  Certainly, as mentioned above, good shoes or work boots are imperative.

   I would encourage you to see a doctor, or even a good chiropractor, to find out what's going on.  I tend to prefer sports medicine doctors, because they understand biomechanics and whole-body influences.  One question:  How do your feet feel first thing in the morning?

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   lostarrow | Sep 17, 2003 03:10am | #5

   jim-

   Day before yesterday I was in Lowes and saw that they have a new floor covering for slabs. New to me anyway. I hadn't seen the likes of it before. It's 2 x 2 squares of OSB with some kind of plastic bubbles on the underside for cushining. I think it goes down with no mastic or cement, somthing like Pergo type flooring. It's a trifle pricey, $5.00 a piece. I piece covers 3.7 sq. ft.

   Be not afraid of going slowly.  Be afraid only of standing still.   chinese proverb
1. 
   corners | Sep 17, 2003 06:11am | #6

   Jim - these are questions in support of your problem.

   How old are you and what physical shape are you in?

   I come from a family of men with back problems. It's a genetic deformity in the lumbar area. I have learned over the years to take care of my body - this works for me:

   Before getting out of bed in the morning I do some simple stretches and movements to ensure all is mobile and the lubrication is in place before putting weight on my bones.

   Then some flexibility movements with a hot shower running on my back. Bending at the waist 30 or 40 times.

   Then the big part - 3 mile walk before breakfast - a brisk walk in good shoes - pulse up to a suitable rate for my age. Takes about 40 minutes - 365 times a year.

   This basic routine keeps me going through my workdays on concrete with few problems. The best shoes I can buy of course.

   I don't sit on upholstered chairs - solid oak please and my back doesn't touch the chair back - I can sit like this for hours.

   See your doctor and then figure out your own body - it takes continuous effort and it's worth it. 

   I'm almost 60.

1. 
   EdHarrow | Sep 17, 2003 07:08am | #7

   Jim, lots of good advice, esp re footwear, Doc visit, exercise, etc.  I have a similar situation, and improved it by laying in sleepers of 3/4 PT ply, put foam insulation between, and covered with 4x8 T&G ply.  It softens the floor considerably, as well as creating a warmer surface (important here in the winter). 

   Now all I have to do is repeat that exercise in my shop, LOL.

4. 
   puterinyanky | Sep 17, 2003 07:12pm | #8

   Thank you all so very much for your responces, I took the advice of alot of you and contacted my Doctor and explained the simtums to him like I explained them to you all and the nurse told me to hang on for a minute so she could go talk to the doctor. When she came back on the line she told me the doc wants me to come in asap so I have an appointment for tomorrow.

    Some of you asked my age and thats where I have the biggest problem with the way I've been feeling becouse I'm only 36 and am in relativly good shape except for a slight spare tire around the mid section infact the last physical I had a year or so ago the doc said I was 10# over but other than that I was in pretty good condition.

    I relize I'm getting older but geez I didn't know age would make me feel like this

    Again Thanks for all of your inputs and I'll try to let you all know what the Doc has to say,

    Sincerely,

    James Clark

1. 
   RoyinMD | Sep 17, 2003 07:45pm | #9

   James,

   Ain't it great the way Knoter's rise to the topic. All great comments. I think seeing the doctor is a must.

   A friend has had back problems from years of hard work in the concrete block buisness and now a manager with Home Depot (too bad not I my area), he's on concrete floors all day, he has sworn for years that there is nothing better than Red Wing Shoes. They make, yes expensive, workboots that he will not live without.

   I'm 47 and have more pains from a long day in the shop than 15 years ago but the Costco floor mats helped me alot. I have had a small mat in front of the tablesaw for years but now I have installed them bench to bench and TS back. All foot traffic area of the back half of the shop. 10 to 12 hour weekend days in the shop is routine and I'm not woreout and dying like I used to be.

   Hang in there Jim.

   Enjoy, Roy

2. 
   ian | Sep 18, 2003 01:58pm | #10

   Jim, an area often overlooked is how your legs join to your feet (ankle bone is connected to the leg bone, etc.).  The legs on many people do not link cleanly with the ankle and foot, they either pronate or over-pronate (I think these are the correct terms).  To some extent you can tell which you are by looking at the heels of your shoes: do they wear more on one side?  Pain in the knees and back is often a result of the rest of the body compensating for a problem where the leg meets the foot.  Talk to your doc and also consider seeing a sports medicine specialist. 

   Little things can be a great help.  In my case, how long I can stand or walk without discomfort is very dependent on how well the shoe holds my foot and ankle at a "proper" angle.  I've found an easy and relatively cheap solution is to buy a stock shoe or boot and then visit a ski shop that does custom boot fitting.  There I get a set of ski boot footbeds molded to the right shape to fit the shoe and position my knees "correctly" in respect to my feet.  Fortunately I discovered this low cost option just before I had to order a replacement set of foot beds from the foot specialist. 

3. 
   JOSEPH2238 | Sep 18, 2003 02:49pm | #11

   Jim,

   One other trick is to change the type of shoe you wear every day.  This will help strengthen the muscles in your mid section.  I blew out a disk when I was 35 and was told I would be in surgery in 6 months.  I worked the muscles in my mid section and have not seen the inside of an operating room. I am now 42 and mostly pain free. Try sleeping with your shoulders raised and your knees bent or in a recliner.

   Joe Phillips

   Plastics pay the bills, Woodworking keeps me sane!

5. 
   adrienne4468 | Sep 18, 2003 03:00pm | #12

   Get two pair of good shoes and change them halfway through the day. My old boss had hip replacement surgery and said that it helped because it transfered the load differently with each pair. Concrete does make a big difference over wood. I was an iron worker and fell on a solid 4" wood floor and the doc said that if it had been concrete it would have broken my back.

1. 
   rody | Sep 18, 2003 03:13pm | #13

   As a 22 yr. veteran of plant work, all concrete and steel; shoes, mats, and the other items all help greatly for a 12 hr. stint on concrete. One other item that hasn't been mentioned is the use of a stool, chair etc. for intervals, if possible. The change from standing to sitting for short periods will reduce the tired feeling after a long day. Some parts of the process can be done from a stool , sanding, finishing, dry fitting ,if its handy. Keep it close to the bench and use it whenever possible. It makes a difference.

   Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue

1. 
   mitch | Sep 18, 2003 05:37pm | #14

   have a look at this stuff-  http://www.dricore.com or 1-888-566-4522  i don't know anything about the $$, etc- just what i saw in their ad in fine homebuilding.  you might want to post next door at breaktime and ask those guys if anybody has used this stuff.  if it's not too expensive i'm going to consider it for part of my shop.  let us know what you find out.

   m

1. 
   watkinsjd | Sep 18, 2003 08:47pm | #15

   Mitch, thanks for that lead.  I have been looking at Delta-FL for my garage shop floor.  It seems to be like Dricore except without the OSB.

   Try http://www.deltams.com 

   I have gotten the following approximate prices:

   DRIcore    about $5.50 per 2X2 section or $1.38 per sq ft

   Delta FL    about $ .52 per sq ft    This comes in 5X65 ft sheets.  You would have to get plywood or some other material to put over it.

   Both of these products look easier and cheaper to install that a sleeper floor system.  Plus the even distribution of weight bearing material may support a cabinet saw or jointer better.

   John

1. 
   Elcoholic | Sep 18, 2003 11:36pm | #16

   This looks pretty good.  My shop doubles as a garage, so everything is on wheels.  When I move the heavy machines around I have to move mats around too.  I wonder if this stuff would hold up under OSB or ply parking my Elco on it every night?John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

6. 
   puterinyanky | Sep 20, 2003 01:03am | #17

   Hello Everyone,   First of all let me take a second to thank all of you for your responces again and yes like someone said earlier it truly is amazing how the fellow woodworking brothers and sisters here on knots are so very helpful.

   Now to let you all know what I've  found out so far.  Like I said earlier my Doc wanted me to come in for a visit with him so once I got there he asked me to explain my pain and when I did he asked what shoes I wore and several other questions almost like what alot of you asked.

    He sent me over to the hospital for a burage of tests I think they poked and prodded every orfice,crack and crevice on me and drew so darn much blood I swore I was the main course meal for old Count Drac.

    They called the Doc after they did some X-rays he came rite away and let me know they had to do another test but this one required a needle to be put in my spine so they could get a sample of the spinal fluid and he also said he'd just asune if I stayed in the hospital. I said I'd just assune not,  I finally got to come home at a little after 9:00pm which in its self wouldn't have been to bad but I got to his office at 7:30 am so after 13 1/2 hours I was getting a little irritated and ancy.

    At any rate he said he'd let me know somthing on Monday on what some of the test said.  So for now I just get to wait and wonder.

    Again thank you all and I'll pass along on Monday what they let me know.

    Sincerely,

    Jim Clark

1. 
   forestgirl | Sep 20, 2003 02:22am | #18

   Holy Smokes, they didn't mess around, did they!?  Hope he can present you with solid reasons for doing all those tests.  And...of course....hope they all come out negative and you just need a new pair of shoes and a new floor (ok....maybe some extra sit-ups too).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)