Hearts of Pine

LD | Posted in General Discussion on December 18, 2003 11:52am

I have a commission to build a coffee table out of some left over hearts of pine flooring. I’ve never worked with this wood.

Is there any special precautions or are there idiosyncrasies of this wood that I should be aware of.

Replies

Kell | Dec 19, 2003 12:46am | #1
My experience is that it's a very hard wood. Make sure all cutting edges are sharp (if you haven't gotten that saw blade sharpened for a while, now is a good time to do so) and be prepared to clean them after the project; pitch build up seems to be faster with this species.

Finish may also be tricky. The only time I worked in it, the customer did their own finishing. Shellac as I recal for a first coat.

The grain can sure be pretty!

Kell

LD | Dec 19, 2003 01:30am | #2
Thanks for the info. The finishing question brought to mind a gluing question.

Some tropical woods require deoiling before gluing. Did you find any problems gluing up your pieces.

ron61 | Dec 19, 2003 02:23am | #3
I don't know about Pine- but isn't Heart wood unstable stuff I know I try to cut around it and not buy lumber with heart wood in it.

The pine will be full of pitch - That's is what they used to make pine tar from.

Do you think it will glue up ? Very waxy

I would not use the stuff- hey but thats just me .

Ron
Dale | Dec 19, 2003 03:38am | #4
As one of the post indicated the heart-pine will indeed resin up your cutting tools, saw blades, router bit and jointer knifes etc. I learned about a year ago (Thanks to Barbara Gill) to spray my cutting tools with the cooking spray PAM prior to cutting heart- pine. PAM will keep the pine resin from sticking to your tools. Most of my pine work has been construction and some jigs so I normally don't glue the stuff much so I can not talk about gluing the pine. But, I don't recall reading or hearing of gluing difficulties.
Arby | Dec 19, 2003 05:33am | #5
The following remarks are the result of several years of experience with heart pine (longleaf yellow pine):

The stuff will gum up your tools but pam works to minimize this.

If it is old, as in salvaged material, it will be brittle and you will spend time digging slivers out of hands and arms.

It machines well and will respond well to sharp hand tools except that it is a bear to carve-- I recently did a cabinet that had four tombstone raised panels which required carving and a great deal of patience! Mine is a one-man shop so I can turn the air blue at such times.

Glue adhesion is not a problem unless you have to glue a section that is gummy, in which case wash with lacquer thinner

Regarding finishing, you will find that the stuff often will tend to take a greenish tint with any solvent-based finish. Testing is strongly recommended! A light wash of red dye will cancel the green. The first coat of finish MUST be shellac or vinyl sealer. Otherwise, yellow pine does not hold paint or clear finishes well.

LD | Dec 19, 2003 06:24am | #6
Thanks for your information.

I have a test piece that I have machined. It looks good. I am going to do some test finishes on it, so I will see what happens.

Since this is a coffee table, I was planning on finishing it naturally with a tung/urethane finish. Do you think an under coat of shellac will still be needed with that finish?

Sphere | Dec 19, 2003 07:05pm | #7
YES on the shellac..I have made ALOT of furniture from antique heart pine..it also Smells acrid and will burn youe eyes and nose. If you handplane it it will gum up yer plane and you just slide right along on every other pass.

Any solvent(petroleum based) will release (soften) more resin, and not allow the top coat to fully cure for a LONG time. Shellac helps, being alcohol carried. Titebond works pretty well 'cept at the parts that resemble Amber..Amber is petrified resin, it will not glue well, it wants to be fused. If ya can get it glued, it will come apart when the sunshines on it..trust me.
Gretchen | Dec 19, 2003 07:09pm | #8
Please use a non-urethane finish on such a gorgeous warm "deep" wood like old heart pine. It deserves better than plastic.Gretchen

LD | Dec 19, 2003 10:00pm | #9
What would you recommend Gretchen?

I apply all my finishes by hand, usually 3 coats of a tung/poly mixture. Then finish with paste wax.

Gretchen | Dec 19, 2003 11:59pm | #10
non-poly varnish.Gretchen
Sphere | Dec 20, 2003 12:02am | #11
HUH? you got somethin against the word poly? Varnish is for all intents and purpose a urethane...A cross-linking long chain polymer..you may be thinkin of the thick pour on finishes. More like a encapsulation?

Edited 12/19/2003 4:03:46 PM ET by SPHERE
jazzdogg | Dec 20, 2003 03:36am | #12
"HUH? you got somethin against the word poly? Varnish is for all intents and purpose a urethane...A cross-linking long chain polymer..you may be thinkin of the thick pour on finishes. More like a encapsulation? "

Sphere,

Huh? Back atcha!

I was taught that Poly is synthetic, while varnish derives from natural resins.

More to the point, they look different from one another, and have different working characteristics. I prefer the look of good ol' oil-based varnish to poly, especially when it comes to the overly "cool" look poly imparts to walnut versus the "warmth" of varnish. I also prefer rubbing out varnish v. poly.

To me, the similarities and differences are analagous to nitrocellulose versus water-borne lacquers.

PaulWhether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Sphere | Dec 20, 2003 03:54am | #13
Sorry if I cause you a stir (no pun) POLY refers to more than one.

Polymeric substance containing many urethane linkages. Abbreviated as PUR. A large family of polymers with widely ranging properties and uses, all based on the reaction product of an organic diisocyanate with compounds containing a hydroxyl group, and having the 'RNHCOOR’- group in their chains. The types and properties of polyurethanes are so varied that they have been dubbed the "erector set" of the plastics industry. They may be thermosetting or thermoplastic, rigid and hard or flexible and soft, solid or cellular; and the properties of any of these types may be varied within wide limits to suit the desired application.

here's varnish

A finish that contains either natural or synthetic oils that are refined by boiling and cooking with the addition of dryers. Slow to cure, but can be accelerated by the addition of heat. When used as a sealer, it is often burnished with a buffer and pads, the friction of which accelerates the curing process. Ambers well, somewhat stain and spot resistant, but may be scratched easily when new due to slow curing time. http://www.armstrong.com/commflooringna/article3443.html

The first is polyurethane by your definition, the second is varnish, which also contains both synthetic resins and plasticisers..no way like comparing waterbase to solvent or nitrocellulose.

same stuff/different amout of molecules in the chaining, nat or synthetic ...don't really matter in this example.

Edited 12/19/2003 8:06:14 PM ET by SPHERE
bobhallsr | Dec 20, 2003 07:19am | #14
To further confuse the non-chemists, even oil based varnishes cure by polymerization. Common natural oils are linseed and tung. The common synthetic oil is alkyd, which is a polyester. Metal salts are added as dryers. They catylize the oxidation of the oils into crosslinked chains or polymers. Lead is no longer used and I don't remember what modern dryers are.

BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Sphere | Dec 20, 2003 04:10pm | #15
How right you are. I worked extensivly with Michael Dresdner developing the Hydro-Cote line of waterbased finishes. We also conducted classes and explaind the properties of finishes. I also was an outside saleman for his Co's line of stains. Clearwater Color Co. I learned from the best.

For a real subject..we ought to discuss the variations of waterbased vs. Waterbourne...

And for those who need a crash course...3 basic elements..aliphatic resins (white glue) , Milk (an emulsifier), and ammonia (a surfactant). There is a a homemade finish. With a little ethers/ or glycols..you have FINISH.

Edited 12/20/2003 8:52:21 AM ET by SPHERE
jonsherryl | Dec 20, 2003 07:39pm | #18
Sphere, I recently bought some of Michael's poly rub-on varnish that Rockler is marketing. I'm impressed with the ease of application and quick drying time compared to the traditional brush applied finishes I normally use...Ordinarily I don't even try a new finish until it's been on the market for a decade or two (a legacy of having been a too gullible young man when the polyurethanes first came out...and making the mistake of believing the pitch that those early polies would "never yellow.")

Anyway, I have a question for you, since you seem to be up on the formulation of these finishes: Is there anything in this Rockler rub-on poly that has UV blocking characteristics? I want to use it on a cherry dulcimer, and the last thing I want is to retard the wood's patina process.
Sphere | Dec 21, 2003 01:39am | #19
Jon,

yes, the rub on stuff is very nice to work with, and IMHO gives a supurb result,( notice, that I have called it "stuff", so as to keep the peace, amongst the masses)..and is very forgiving of less than ideal conditions, like airborn dust.

If I remember correctly..and the formulation has not changed..There is a UV "inhibitor" NOT an UV "Blocker"..The inhibitor will allow Cherry or any other photo-sensitive wood to patinize, tho it may do so more slowly.

I will see if there is more to be known from Michael, tho it has been many years since he has sold the business, and as I stated the formula may have been altered. I believe a simple test would allow you to observe first hand what the actual final result is that can be expected. By finishing a pc. that is typical of your sanding schedule and covering a part of it, put it in the sun and see if the aging is what you are after.

I will email you or post when I have the minutea..Duane
AlanTurner | Dec 23, 2003 04:27pm | #25
Sphere,

Could you please comment on the hardness of the Rockler rub on varnish. I assume this is the poly gel finish. What is its hardness as compared with a traditional interior oil based varnish. Comapred with Behlen's Rock Hard varnish. Time between coats? Sheen? Can it be rubbed out, and if so, how?

Thx.

Alan
Sphere | Dec 23, 2003 11:32pm | #26
s4s..sorry to say I have not used the product that Rockler is selling. To make a few educated guess's is all I would feel comfortable with. I also have no information on where it stands on the Moh scale of hardness.

Best bet is buy it and try it.

Edit..having reread the posts I had misunderstood Jon's original question..I thought he was refering to a different product that was made by Michael, in fact it is the Rockler product that Michael "Recommends" not what he had marketed..sorry for my confusion..by trying to obtain a msds sheet I may be able to ascertain some more reliable characteristics of THAT product.

Edited 12/23/2003 3:40:26 PM ET by SPHERE
jonsherryl | Dec 24, 2003 01:45am | #28
S4S, just some observations on the Rockler rub-on endorsed by Michael. The label says the resins are polyurethane, which suggests they must be on the hard side.

...I really like the ease of application and the moderately fast drying time of this product, but it's rub-out characteristics don't strike me as germane. It's a rub-on finish, which means the build is very slow and it would seem the primary purpose of the product is to avoid the need to rub it out, as you would have to with a brush applied finish.

I'd describe the cured luster of this stuff, when it has been applied with a rag, as "satin". Because the final film is so thin, the grain tends to telegraph through a wee bit even on semi ring-porous woods like walnut...so, you don't get quite a glass smooth surface, but it sure looks hand rubbed...sans the elbow grease. Just my kind of product.

Edited 12/23/2003 7:57:41 PM ET by Jon Arno
bobhallsr | Dec 21, 2003 08:12am | #20
Waterbased vs waterbourne. Hmmm. Now there's a distinction I hadn't considered. Lets have the discussion. I, for one, don't know the difference. I'm not a coatings chemist. I used to rub shoulders with ink chemists. Very similar to coatings chemistry. I've had lots of good varnish components to play with and I learned to go ahead and pay the money for good finishes. The coatings chemists have already solved the problems that come with using the unadulterated stuff like bodied tung oil, pure alkyds, or china wood oil. I do regret that during a move I left my jar of dragons blood behind.

BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Sphere | Dec 21, 2003 05:37pm | #21
I will attempt to shed a bit of light on the mysteries and misnomers but I will expect some contention among the ranks and the inevitable heckling.

First misunderstanding is that wated based is all the same..crystal clear, life less , non penetrating. We are talking Sanding sealers and top coats, not stains.

Not true.

The propietary formulations are very similar in both water based and waterbourne, the thinking that they are "safer" than solvent based is true. The thinking that they are TOTALLY safe is not. The emulsifiers are needed due to the fact that there are many hydrocarbon derived ingredients, which do not readily mix or "suspend" in a water environment. The "Vehicle" in the finish is a mix of water and some typical solvents found in non-water finishes.

To try to keep this accurate (as far as I know) and within the limits of this forums attention span..<G> I will attempt to sum up a distinction..."based " refers to the polymers that form the film and thier composition..essentially the # of hydrogen molecules. The vehicle or carrier can be anything." Bourne", it is my understanding refers to the solids or flatteners delivery system..the vehicle. The two terms are widly interchangable and the difference is very small.In the context of the earlier posts I was correcting an anology..not the comparison of Varn. to Poly.
HowardAcheson | Dec 21, 2003 08:14pm | #22
In this discussion on another site is the best explanation I have seen about waterborne finishes and how they work.

http://talk.woodmagazine.com/default.sph/woodTalk.class?FNC=getReplies__AWOODsubject_list_html___1___1356329___2___2
Sphere | Dec 22, 2003 04:36pm | #23
Thank you ...saved me a batch of typeing..and scrathin my head as to where to start..It is much easier in a "live " setting like the demonstrations we gave...like taking a hardend disc of polyshield from a freezer then microwaving it and passing it around for people to see and feel the durabilty of coalescing finishes.
Tao | Dec 25, 2003 04:29am | #30
>>The first is polyurethane by your definition, the second is varnish, which also contains both synthetic resins and plasticisers..no way like comparing waterbase to solvent or nitrocellulose.

>>same stuff/different amout of molecules in the chaining, nat or synthetic ...don't really matter in this example.

Sorry to join in on this so late, especially with a sidelight, but.......

Actually polyurethane varnish is made with alkyd resins modified with urethane, and If my memory is correct, urethane is also an ester. But to equate alkyd varnish with poly varnish is like saying starch and sugar are the same because they are both carbohydrates. And to equate an oil modified polyester, like alkyd resin, to a modern polyester finish would be absurd.

Sure, they have chemical similarities, but the differences are crucial. Look how many compounds can be made with just carbon and hydrogen; add a few oxygens, and the number of distinctly different compounds must be in the millions -- but they're all the same stuff, just carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen.

I don't know whether it's the amount of build, the amount of diffusion, or the refractive index, but I've not yet seen a consumer grade "oil based" polyurethane varnish that I thought looked good, or even passable, especially since there so many better looking alternatives.

On the other hand, the catalyzed urethane clearcoat on my car looks great, as does the catalyzed urethane from ICA that I use as my "maximum durability" finish.

This is sure a long way from dealing with heart pine. Pardon the diversion.

Michael R.
Sphere | Dec 25, 2003 06:04pm | #31
My point exactly..there are many molecular level similarities. And an depth chemistry lesson is really not what I had intended. The seemingly abhorrance of ANY "POLY" is what I was attempting to clarify. BTW, is your car clear coat not an Acrylic/urethane?

Monoesters, isocyans, hydrols, alcohols..variations of which provide the building blocks of coatings are all playing a role.

Alkyds are GOOD.

synthetic resin made by the reaction of phtalic anhydride with polyhydric alcohol (forming a polyfunctional saturated polyester) and modified with fatty acids or oils. According to the quantity of oil introduced ("oil length") alkyds can be classified as: - short oil alkyds - medium oil alkyds - long oil alkyds The former are used in two-pack polyurethane coatings as binders in part A (to be reacted with isocyanates, which are included in part B). The latter are commonly used in exterior grade one-pack coatings, which are often referred to as "alkyds". http://www.tecnocolorsrl.it/dictionary.htm

Urethanes are GOOD

Actually a misnomer as applied to polyurethane foam. A colorless, crystalline substance used primarily in medicines, pesticides, and fungicides. Urethane is not used in the production of urethane polymers or foams. The urethanes of the plastics industry are so named because the repeating units of their structures resemble the chemical urethane. http://www.renosol.com/Glossary_PU.htm

And yes, this has nothing to do with HeartPine..<g>

Merry Chistmas
LD | Dec 29, 2003 12:43am | #32
I'm replying to all that have responded to my original ? I appreciate the discussion but I need some more enlightenment concerning the finish.

I normally use a 1:1 solution of tung oil and polyurethane varnish. I dilute the 1st coat with a small amount of paint thinner to allow deeper penetration of the finish into the wood. I would assume that the 1st coat would act as a sealer and subsequent coats would build more on the surface.

I continue with the undiluted solution, adding coats until I like the finish. That has been my procedure on many many varieties of wood (including cherry) and I have always been pleased with the results. I don't stain.

My question is; why is it necessary to seal hearts of pine wood with shellac? Wouldn't the varnishes accomplish the same thing?

Dave
Sphere | Dec 29, 2003 12:59am | #33
My question is; why is it necessary to seal hearts of pine wood with shellac? Wouldn't the varnishes accomplish the same thing?

Essentially the shellac is a barrier coat. Better to have it as a non-reactive sealer than a mineral spirit based sealer. Min. Spirits MAY re-dissolve the resin in the pine and give you a headache. The resin is what turpentine is derived from and is albe to be rehydrated by petroleum distillates..alcohol based shellac will bite into the resin but NOT overly mix with it and become goopy sticky. The fast flash of alcohol vs. petro is what you want.
LD | Dec 29, 2003 04:40am | #35
Thanks for both your answers. That is logical and when thought about, intuitive.

Dave
LD | Dec 29, 2003 07:01pm | #36
In thinking about this subject over night, using a waterbased finish should work without a shellac sealer. Right?
Sphere | Dec 29, 2003 11:53pm | #37
in a word...yep. BUT the shellac will give more depth of color to the pine..then do the WB but you may want some amber add in if you use "SEAL_COTE" if you use orange shellac amber may not be needed..I WOULD still use the shellac.
Tao | Dec 29, 2003 12:59am | #34
There's a chance that the resins in the pine might keep your finish from curing. I have seen it happen before. Shellac makes a good barrier coat between the resins and the finish. It's widely used for sealing knots to keep the resins from bleeding through paints and clear coats.

Michael R
Gretchen | Dec 20, 2003 05:21pm | #16
Yes, there are many kinds of varnish and you may do as you like. I prefer the deeper look of a non-poly varnish. It has been around a LOT longer than plastic.Gretchen
Sphere | Dec 20, 2003 05:50pm | #17
I can respect your views. I can also dispute myths, and back that up with facts. To say that Varnish was "around a LOT longer than plastics" is a statement that begs to be argued, I will refrain from that. It all comes from rotten dinosaurs. Basic chemistry. Unless of course YOUR definition of plastic is that stuff from another space/time continueum.

The only pure wood finish is oxygen, we don't all like the look of oxidized resins that each species may have, so we enhance that appearance to our liking and/or desired effect.

Just the facts ma'am,just the facts.

Arby | Dec 23, 2003 05:32am | #24
Returning to the question of shellac sealer, I would first apply the oil to give your wood the depth only oil imparts (I oil everything almost everything except cherry which just becomes more blotchy), then seal with shellac. Modern shellacs that are dewaxed are only slightly less resistant to water and alcohol than nitrocellulose laquer, so mostly I build more thin coats of shellac and then wax. Regardless of the final finish medium please undercoat with dewaxed shellac, such as Zinzer sealcoat.

cigarmike | Dec 24, 2003 12:52am | #27
Tips from my own use and experience:

1. Make sure all cutting tools are sharp.

2.Use an alternate to the belt sander. This machine will heat up in a hurry and cause the dust and resins cling to the belt. I used the random orbit sander more than any other machine, especially if your planer does not give a smooth surface. Consider using a scraper as an alternate.

3. Very old and dry lumber will cause a minor dust storm. If you do not already have a decent dust collector, consider one now. And use a mask.

4. I treat it just like hardwoods, and any joint you would use in hardwood you can use on heart pine. Predrill any screw holes. Yellow glues work fine.

5. As a finish, any you use on current projects will work. I used a lower grade shellac for a sealer coat, and water based poly on top. This wood looks great without any kind of stain, which in my opinion defeats the purpose of using heart pine.

6. Good luck and watch those fingers.
Piffin | Dec 24, 2003 06:05am | #29
I've done miles of flooring and several cabinets out of heart pine. Love it. Never had a problem glueing with yellow glues.

They are sure right about resins gumming up your tools and sandpaper. Scraper better for furniture work anyway.

I love any oil based finish on it to bring out the warm amber tones. Tung oil or Oil polyurethene. Never have seen the green mentioned but that was connected with the word yellow pine in same post I think. Heart pine is in the yellow pine family but it is the antigue long leaf pine, not the modern plantation southern yellow pine.

.

Excellence is its own reward!
LD | Jan 16, 2004 05:59am | #38
To all who replied, I finally finished the coffee table. I found (as all you guys have)that the wood is beautiful, machines easily, splinters like hell, chips, splits and gums up everything. I must have spent 2 hrs cleaning my band saw blade. But I'm very proud of the table.

I sealed with shellac, and used three coats of poly/tung followed by wax. The finish is gorgeous.

Thanks to all for the continued education.

Dave