ALL,
I just finished making my first shooting board, but I am having some problems. When I went to use it it was extremely hard to take a shaving off of the end grain. I am using a Stanley #4 and the blade is very sharp. I can take nice beautiful shavings off of the face of the board so I don’t think that the blade is too dull. I have tried adjusting the blade depth and even with it set to take off the smallest of shavings it is still very hard to push the blade through the end grain. Now to be honest I am trying to shoot end grain on a piece that is over an inch and a half thick so that could be the problem but even when I tried using it on some one inch thick pine it was really hard. The board works great and after a lot of effort it does produce nice square ends.
Is it maybe that the angle on the blade is too steep and maybe using a low angle jack plane, or something along those lines, would be easier. Or maybe shooting boards just require a lot of elbow grease? Thanks for the help
SK2
Replies
sk2,
i have been struggling with the same problem for some time now. the shooting board i made is for truing 22 1/2 degree miters. my planes are also sharp and tuned. derek did an article a while back and others have posted shooting techniques. i was left wondering if the plane needs to be heavier or if the blade should be up-graded to one of those thicker types. let's see if we get some good answers!
the many handplane discussions, of the past few months, have been very detailed and elaborate (not to mention, a bit scary). i am even more confused now than when i started, especially with the shooting board info.
eef
Edited 5/19/2009 12:19 pm ET by Eef
I don't see the problem as being due to using a #4, although it is far from ideal. For some years I used a HNT Gordon Trying Plane, and that had an even higher cutting angle (60 degrees). Personally, I'd rather go for a heavier and wider plane, such as a #5 1/2. Better still is a LA Jack.
The 1-1/2" board you are trying to shoot is very thick and ambitious for a first learning experience. I would start with boards 1/4" and 1/2" thick and get the feel on that.
Assuming that you are taking a fine - I mean fine - shaving, then the problem may be complicated by your blade not being as sharp as you believe. Planing face grain is hardly a challenge in comparison to end grain. Have you tried to plane end grain off the shooting board, for example, with your board in a vice?
Here is a link to an article I wrote: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek/Roc,
Roc thanks for the alcohol suggestion. Now that you mention it I have heard about that so i will try that and see what happens (fingers crossed)
Derek I will give the blade a quick swipe across the sharpening stones here in a little bit and see if that along with the alcohol or water makes a difference. I do have a nice heavy #7 jointer plane which I bought it off of ebay for really cheap but the blade was rusted pretty bad so it is hard to get a nice sharp edge on it and I just haven't gotten around to buying a new one... maybe I will go shopping on the internet after I post this since I am thinking about it!
Thanks to both of you for your suggestions. I will post again tomorrow to let you all know how it went.
Nick
As someone who has started using hand tools in the past few months and made his first shooting board about 2 months ago may I offer a few suggestions.1. Is the plane sole true? If it is slightly concave then the initial impact of the blade onto the work will "stall" the movement, stripping the plane of any momentum it has built up.2. Lubrication: Is the chute really well lubricated? There is a lot of friction between the side of the plane and the chute. What I did with my board was sand well and then I applied candle wax and used a heat gun to melt the wax into the wood, polishing it with a heated cloth. The difference this made was amazing.3. Technique. There is a David Finck video where he shows how to use a shooting board on the FWW website. Copy that motion.Hope this helps.
davcefai,
I like the tip about the candle wax... I think I will try that. As for the bottom of the plane it was just honed on a marble slab about 2 months ago and I was careful to make sure that the entire sole was flat and true. I have watched the video you refer to and I am (I think) using the same motion but the plane is still stalling at the begining of the cut and is extremely hard to push through the cut even with all of my body weight leaning against it. A few others have offered suggestions, from wetting the endgrain with alcohol to giving the blade a tune up so I will take all of the suggestions and put them together over the next couple of days and see what happens. Thanks for the advice!
Nick
I use an alternative to candle wax- It is a product called SLIPIT that comes in a can, sprayer or aerosol and is made for woodworking tools. It doesn't build up like wax and really reduces friction. I use it on my double-hung windows, drawers and all my woodworking jigs-
Good stuff.(:-)
Windy Wood
In the Helderberg Mountains of NY
SK2,
Looks like you are having all the problems I was.
>Low angle plane
sounds good but doesn't help as much as the advertisers promise. I still use one which is a medium low angle 20°
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=9
but that is because the configuration other wise is more conducive to the task than the blade angle and this thing is serious bucks. So in short no you don't need a low angle.
>1-1/2" wide stock
Aahhh . . . here we have a dilemma. The need to plane wider stuff on the endgrain. Yes this makes it allot harder. Pretty much need a straight across blade edge to do this but a rounded edge works best for taking significantly deep cuts to make a difference in a short amount of time. Here you may need to mark the end square, use a radiused blade and back up block and clamp vertically in a very rigid vise. When you get good at it dispense with the back up block and just come in from both directions toward the center with out goin off ( because that breaks out the side fibers ).
THEN use the straight across blade in your shoot board and take the final passes to make it pretty. Other wise takes just too dang long.
Makes a handtool guy start eyeing those nice seven hundred dollar miter saws I can tell you !
But here is the big secret : ARE YOU READY SK2 ? ARE YOU READY ?
Hey I had to play it up because it was such a revelation and a hard fought find for me. . .
Wet the end grain with alcohol or paint thinner or water. Take several passes and repeat depending on the wood. Makes all the dif in the world !
Won't make the wide stuff quick to plane if you shoot and you may want to actually clamp it for the final pass or two o the wide stuff. Takes some practice to get this.
For the vertically clamped "preeplaning" I recommend the Klausz style bench vises. Makes for more ridged and better attack than the metal quick adjust record vise which is partly what I used to make my Klausz bench. Tons of three inch wide endgrain in purple heart.
It was learn or die ! ! !
Yep shooting board much more useful on thin stuff. Depends on the hardness of the wood yada yada.
Hang in there ! Interesting activity this handtool woodworking !
PS: sorry if delete caused a problem I attatched a photo
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/19/2009 1:13 pm by roc
Nice bench, roc
Taigert
Nice quote in your profile. Any thing less is such a waste.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
That comes from a combination of sending my working life in the back of a Ambulance as a Paramedic and in fighting two life ending illness's myself. My outlook was formed basicly by seeing so many lives snatched away without warning.
So I try to make I get the most out of each and every moment I'm alive. I make sure the people in my life know how much I love them.
I guess you could say I "take the time to smell the roses" but in my case I prefer to "smell the sawdust"
Taigert
ALL,
So I tried the tips you all gave me last night and wow what a difference. I went back to the granite slab and was able to remove a lot of the pitting on the back of my old Stanley blade by just working on the last inch or so rather than trying to remove the pitting across the entire back. It worked really well but I think that I am still going to upgrade to a better blade soon. Who knew that sharpening a blade could make such a difference! (LOL). The wax trick worked really well, as did wetting the end grain. It was a completely different experience (it's amazing what happens when everything is working like it's supposed to!). Thanks to all of you for the excellent advice and help.
Nick
nick,
thanks for posting, i'll probably do the same as you. i am not yet willing to give up on the shooting board.
and, once again, thanks to all who made suggestions.
eef
YYEEEESSSS ! ! ! !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Nick - Sounds like you've solved your problem, but I wanted to point out something that wasn't in the suggestions:
When you fits make a shooting board, the ramp that holds the stock is flush with the fence, and is a 90 degree flat face to the running surface of the plane. After the first few passes of the plane, the iron cuts a shallow rabbet on the face of the ramp. How deep this rabbet is depends on how deep you set the iron in the plane on the first passes.
The depth of this rabbet also matters when supporting the bottom of the stock. If the initial few passes were done with a deeply set iron, then you may have a rabbet that's 10 thousandths or more deep. That tends to allow fibers to tear off of the board on the bottom.
If that's the case, you fix this problem if you have a rabbet plane (either wood, or more likely, metal) or a shoulder plane. One simply removes the workpiece, then runs the plane with the blade adjusted all the way at the edge of the plane's sidewall. This will preferentially cut the rabbet (and the fence at the end) down flush, at which point you can start again with your "normal" shooting board plane.
Note that changing planes on a shooting board can cause a situation where you can't take a shaving for a few passes - the new plane's mouth sidewall is lower than the old one, so the first few passes are taking shavings off of the rabbet at the bottom of the ramp rather than the workpiece.
Roc,
I have a bold request for you! Can you provide me with a plan (sketeches perhaps, materials used) or photos of your bench! I am making one and when I saw yours I immediatelly thought.."wow, there's the bench I would love to have!" If the plans are something you would want to gain a few bucks from by all means just let me know! What a work of art! I can see you are one of the woodworkers who finds joy in creating elements of work that are aesthetically pleasing.
Kevin
>plans . . . to gain a few bucks fromWell if I did I would be one sorry so and so.
I got them from this guy http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=2129so send him a six pack or tickets to a ball game or suppin'.well not plans exactly they are herehttp://www.amazon.com/Workbench-Book-Craftsmans-Workbenches-Woodworking/dp/1561582700/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=booksqid=1243481181&sr=1-1In the back of the book. Most all the measurements are there if you stare at it long enough. I penciled in quite a few and made some renderings of my own. Doesn't have to be exact you can take some license here and there.There is plenty you got to scratch your head over but it made me a better woodworker. I won't steal that from you. It is worth grappling with.I am going to give you ( and any one else that wants to have a go ) a challenge to find what I did with the dovetails in the tail vise jaw. Very subtle change for looks and strength. Not at all obvious. Probably not worth even discussing but for those detail freaks there was an intentional out of the norm change made.Oh by the way I made the spacing between the dog holes in the vise jaw progressive; not equally spaced. The theory was I have to turn the vise screw less and I just move the dogs for different length boards. Hell I can't even explain what/how that works but it seemed to make sense at the time.Always best to have the vise closed up as much as possible so it suports the plank that is being planed/held.It is a situation where you put a plank up there and if you turn the screw in and it "bottoms out " closes up before gripping the plank you can back it up a couple of turns and then change BOTH dogs and viola you don't have to turn the screw for ever to open it as much as you would if the holes were equally spaced.That sounds like nonsense. Ahhhhh I can't explain it. Mr Klausz said in the articles about the bench some where that he always wanted to put a motor on the thread to speed up opening the vise. the progressive spacing between dog holes in the jaw was my attempt to speed up vise work. Don't need a big long handle on the vises either. I don't get the need for those fourteen inch long vise handles. Put a bit of grease on the threads when you put the vise together and you can get all kinds of force with a short handle.Nah what you are thinking is probably right; that I need to get out more, develop interests out side the woodshop, meet people, learn to relax, get a dog etc.: )rocPS: that wasn't fair was it. Here are pics of the dovetails on the jaw.
PPS: to those who are damb tired of looking at this one trick of mine I better get into the shop and at least attempt to make something else. Now that i have a bench to work on. Yes that would be a good idea.Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/28/2009 12:24 am by roc
Roc,
I am just... about... ready... to put dog holes in my new bench top. I think I'll give that progressive spacing a try.
Thanks for the tidbit.
--jonnieboy
P.S. Sorry, I was afield of the shooting board subject here.
What is the proper spacing and location for 3/4 inch holes in a bench for holddowns freom TWW? I have square holes in the front side but they only work with the vises. I hate to drill holes in my beech wood bench without some recomendations from experts.
fxston,
That's a great question. I'm only on my first bench, and it's not even done yet, so I'm not really the one to ask.
Why don't you start a new thread with that question? I'd be most interested to see what people with experience have to say.
--jonnieboy
P.S. Let me know if you do start a new thread so I don't miss out!
Edited 7/6/2009 12:21 pm ET by jonnieboy
Christopher Swarz has become some what of a Guru on workbenches. In his book titled "Workbenches" he suggests a spacing of 3"s.
The book is well worth reading he touches on a number of idea's you wouldn't normally think about.
Taigert
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I believe the miter planes have set angle of 20 degrees then a blade angle of about 25 degrees that results in 45 degree angle. I use at least a 8000 water stone for sharpening and go for razor sharp on a leather strop. With the plane blade set for a micro cut I go for end grain planing. I believe higher angle is better.
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fxston,
Thanks for your suggestion. I have a question though. I have heard of a strop but never seen or used one. What is it and how do you use it? Thanks.
Nick
Hi Nick
To find out more on strops and stropping, don't forget to do a search on Knots.
This following might help as it contains a pictorial of how I strop. Just remember that others may do it differently and better.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Stroppingwithgreenrougeversesdiamondpaste.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
derek,
thanks for the great tutorial. been stropping on the same piece of leather for several decades, now. i use aluminum oxide as the strop-charge. after reading your lesson, i think i'd like to give the green stuff a go.
thanks,
eef
Hi eef
Just remember to use the green rouge sparingly and mix it (sprinkle) with baby oil (just scented mineral oil) so that it smooths and soaks into the leather. Like diamond paste, a little goes a long way.
Recently I tried a tip given me on another forum. This involved using a piece of copy paper as the strop, onto which I added a little baby oil and .5 micron diamond paste (mine is oil based). The paper was attached to glass. This was just an experiment born out of curiosity, but it worked pretty well. A bit too fussy, so I cannot see myself doing it again, but interesting results.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I generally use a leather strop but have found in a pinch that the cardboard back on a tablet does a good job.
BTW I just checked (and bookmarked) your website. Looks like a lot of good info. Thanks for making it available.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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Eef,I have tried lots of different methods of sharpening so that I could "see for myself". I don't recommend anything to anyone, but I share my findings in case there is anyone else out there who likes to try things out for themselves rather than just believing someone else. Years ago, I got the itch to try chip carving. So I got the Wayne Barton stuff - two knives, a book and two ceramic sharpening stones. One of the ceramic sharpening stones is black and is the coarser of the two. Pretty much, you use it to get the edge right the first time, and then hone with the white stone. I have never gone back to the black stone. I just continue to hone on the white one. I have found others who have had the same experience. So what are these "ceramic sharpening stones"? Well, it is difficult to get good information. Spyderco makes three, the black one, a white one and another white one which is extra-fine. So I looked at the info that Spyderco puts out and it says that the white stone is 2000 grit. I looked further, and Dennis Moor, who runs a carving equipment store in Canada, has info on his site that the white extra fine stone is 8000 grit. My experience is MUCH different than the info I got from either Spyderco or from Moor. The extra fine ceramic stone is the only stone I use on my chip carving knives, and the only stone I keep on my bench while carving, to hone my gouges often. I have taken chisels and plane blades and done a bit of a test. I have an 18" hard leather strop, with the shiny side up. I put the green rouge on it along with some mineral oil, as Derek does. I took some blades and sharpened them as usual, then honed them on the strop, and then wiped them clean of the green rouge, and then examined them, and then took them to the extra fine, white ceramic stone. WOW, it really increased the "shine" on the bevels. So I tried going the other way. Starting to strop with the ceramic stone, and then going to the leather strop. The edge gets duller. But what does that prove? I don't know. So I tried testing the blades by putting them to wood. Both methods seem to work just about as well.But for some unknown and unimportant reason, I prefer the ceramic stone. It is used dry, without water or oil. One cleans it occasionally with a Scrubby and some Bon Ami or Barkeepers Helper. You can see on a the ceramic stone that some metal is being removed. But the blade just seems to glide over it. Not much metal is being removed. My guess is that the grit of the extra fine ceramic stone is far above the 8000 number that Moor uses. Years ago, I called Spyderco, and I remember getting a higher number than 8000, and certainly much higher than the 2000 number they currently use. I guarantee you it is infinitely less aggressive than an 8000 grit waterstone (both King and Norton). There is a downside to the ceramic stone. If you drop it on concrete, you end up with a lot of little stones. If you drop the leather strop, there is not much damage. :-)Anyway, my extra fine Spyderco ceramic stone is a favorite tool of mine. I use it often. It is as non-intrusive as any sharpening or honing method can be. Please note, I am not recommending you use a ceramic stone for honing. I merely provided some of my experience so you can test it if you ever get the chance. I have noticed more people using the extra fine ceramic stone as time as gone on. Whatever you do, have fun, and as Derek said, don't get too "fussy" about sharpening. Do just enough of it to get the effect that you like. If you try something and you can't see a difference, no need to continue with it, is there? Except for one thing. I have learned that sharpening is a "Skill", and that when I first tried techniques, they didn't work so well. Now almost any technique works well. I found that it is not the technique, it is the skill with which it is used. I sometimes use scary sharp, sometimes oilstones, sometimes waterstones. I keep checking to see where I notice differences, just because it is fun for me to notice such things. I am retired, and being efficient is not important. Hope you got a kick out of all of this.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
thanks mel, i did get a kick...
it is probably safe to say that, unless we workers of wood learn to sharpen, at least some of our cutting edges, we aren't going to get very far down the ww path. we probably all settle on what works best for us. i tend to improve the techniques i learned first and, thusly, build the skill.
eef
Eef,
You might want to check out any truckers supply stores, maybe auto supply stores; jewelers supply companies sell a host of different products too. There are many truck drivers who take a lot of pride in their rides who spend countless hours washing waxing and detailing their rigs.
To get to the point minus the babble, many of these outfits sell sticks of rouge with varying grits, some sell packs of one each of different grits. Just other possible sources for you.
Truckers use these to shine their chrome parts among other uses. Each grit is a different color also and would recommend a different strop for each grit, i.e. I wouldn't mix them on the same strop.
I use barbers strops which I simply lay on the benchtop - you're not grinding so not worried about any slippage. I like the barbers strops as they are long and give you a lot of surface to use. Also they have a sort of braided canvas side which seems to help when cleaning the teeth on the blade after the leather/rouge stropping.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
hey bob,
you got me thinking. recently i got a whole, great pile of jewelers rouge. mostly the red stuff. can i charge leather using this stuff?
thanks for your response,
eef
Eef,
can i charge leather using this stuff?
Absolutely. I don't remember the grit values for these things right off the top of my head but I believe they are sort of color coded, white being the finest?
When I was a barber many, many, many years ago { must be cause they're extinct these days - (ooooooooooooo) } we used shaving cream on our strops to keep then in top shape - lanolin in the shaving cream. Doesn't work out too good on the canvas part though, DAMHIKT................
If anyone asks ye tell 'em the hide off a Yaks butt makes the best strops. Just be ready to duck afterwards though. Many think horse butt hide is best........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"can i charge leather using this stuff?"Hi eefSee my earlier post with a link for a discussion of this.Regards from Cape Town Derek
TOOLS FOR WORKING WOOD has a great strop made of thick horse hide from the b utt area. Good luck!
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