Is there a “correct” tooth count for crosscut vs ripping when choosing a handsaw for crosscut?
I want to add a handsaw to my shop for rough cutting 8′ and 10′ 5/4 maple down to size. I presently use a circular saw for this, but I fill my little shop with sawdust with it.
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Replies
A 5 to 7 TPI rip.
Crosscut, 8, 10, 12, TPI, depending upon how smooth you want it.
Ripping a 10' long piece of 5/4 maple is gonna be a good workout. ;-)
I think he means crosscutting to shorter lengths.
Oh, okay. It was hard to tell. I took him to mean he wanted to break it down in both directions, and hence the mention of crosscutting and ripping. But now that I reread it, I think you're right.
I did mean to say crosscut.
You probably know this, but the difference between crosscut and rip saws is more than just the tooth count per inch, the shapes and geometries of the teeth are very different. You might be able to passably rip with a crosscut sawy, but you'd find crosscutting with a rip tooth pattern quite difficult.
I do know the difference for western style saws - chisel teeth for the rip saw, and teeth that slice the rays (rays?) fibers for the cross cut. But so far, I haven't come across any in either big box or hardware store.All that I can find in stores have what is called an aggressive cut tooth pattern. To me they look more LIKE a cross cut pattern, with many overlapping slicing teeth all around, sharpened both fore and aft as if they are made to cut both pulling and pushing Since I've never notices such before, I had to ask. I'm going to pick up one of the longer Stanleys and I'll let you know how it works out.
MikeD
If you're interested in the finer points (pun intended), here's a good primer:
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html
Big boxes these days will have these impulse hardened Japanese tooth style cross cut saws for carpentry type work. They'll no doubt work fine for your purposes. If you want a traditional Western saw or two at some point, seek out a good vintage tool vendor (lots available on the net), or go the ebay route (search "disston saw" or "atkins saw" for a start). Only trouble with eBay is that while they tend to be cheap for user saws ($10 to $30 apiece), you might have to sharpen them or have them sharpened. Good luck.
What a great site. Makes me want one.
Thanks,
MikeD
Just get a Stanley hardened tooth saw from the Big Box. You can get a short toolbox model with Japanese teeth or a regular length more traditional looking saw (to Western eyes at least).
You'll be able to crosscut to your heart's delight with nary a worry about goobin' up some vintage saw. They cut surprisingly well too. If the objective is to crosscut a board and not don period clothing and hang the saw on the wall in a specially made till then don't spend a whole bunch of money.
Thanks for the input,I found a selection of Stanley hardpoint saws at Home Depot for from $13 to $20, depending on the length. I think that the longest one is 22 inches long. The label says "for aggressive sawing" and the teeth look something like those on a Japanese pull saw. I was a little hesitant to get one, though, since I have a 12 inch blade Marples-brand combination Japanese style pull saw with 17 points on the cross-cut side and and 9 points on the rip side, and it takes just forever to cross-cut 10" of 5/4 maple using either side.I'm going to try the longer of the Stanleys. For $20 for the longest, it sure beats the $85 to $110 that I've found so far on the internet for a traditional western saw.Mike D
Mike,
Google wood hand saws. Here's some @ Lowes: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&Ne=9000&category=Saws+%26+Blades&N=0+5000930
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi,
Ideally you want to have no more than 4-5 teeth in the wood while sawing (rip or crosscut). The TPI numbers are governed by the hardness of the wood , the state ( wet , dry ,green )and the thickness of the section. The best bet is a fine tooth saw which can do passably well even on thicker pieces of wood at the expense of time. If you must buy a coarse tooth saw , you can use it on thinner sections by decreasing the angle of the blade so that the wood 'sees' more teeth.
Regards
Samson's message and reference to the Old Saw site is great. Yes, every woodworker should know ho to sharpen his (or her) saw. I've done it more than a few times, but.... multiply the time it takes you to sharpen a saw by your hourly 'worth' or billing time, and the math will show you that it is far more economical to send your hand-saw blades out to be sharpened.
Here in 'down-state' New York, the going rate is about $8 for either rip or cross-cut saws. The only problem is that most saw sharpeners will not touch a fine-tooth dovetail saw, its teeth are too fine for most of their machinery.
The Japanese style pull saws and the American 'push' versions have their teeth impulse hardened. In practical terms this means that they can not be readily sharpened. So in effect, it becomes a 'use till dull and then toss it away' saw.
SawdustSteve
Any crosscut made with a big saw will be just outside a scored line and then cleaned up to the line with a plane (other than rough crosscuts to knock stock down to just over finished dimensions and then who cares?). The last thing to touch a workpiece being crosscut to a finished dimension will be a plane, not a saw. So the saw doesn't matter that much. I'm assuming furnituremaking here, not rough carpentry.
You may make a crosscut from time to time with a backsaw that won't require any cleanup, but gracious alive I can't remember the last time I didn't dress a crosscut with a plane during a furnituremaking project. Other than for joinery cuts like dovetails and tenon cheeks, you'll probably never make a sawcut that won't be dressed with a handplane.
Don't agonize over the saw.
Edited 8/20/2008 4:33 pm ET by BossCrunk
Mike, for what it's worth, I, too, have a tiny shop, so to cut down boards I take them outside, put them on sawhorses and cut them to approximate length with a couple of ancient, plastic-handled, inexpensive Craftsman saws I've owned for at least 30 years. Then I take the pieces in and cut them to the line on the tablesaw. They need very little fine tuning, if any, after that. If they do, I'll neaten them up on a shooting board.Norman
Hi guys,
Thanks to all the input, I bought a Stanley Hardpoint for about $8:00 on Amazon. I think I paid more for the "shipping and handling" than I did for the saw. It's a 26", 8 point per inch saw with a plastic handle. SWMBO and I are cleaning out the garage and installing wall to wall, floor to ceiling wire shelving at present, so I haven't gotten to test it out yet. Soon as I get back into my shop, I'll let you all know if I can rough cut a piece of 5/4 8" wide maple with it or not.
Thanks again for all the advice.
MikeD
If you make your cuts perfectly square to the face (not the easiest thing to do at first) then just about any saw will cut great. Most people end up crosscutting at a slight bevel angle (not square to the face) and a cut with any bevel angle to it will feel more labored than it need be.
Hold as square up to the saw blade on your first few cuts until you get a 'feel' for square to the face.
An eight point will give you a bit of a rough cut. If you need to use it for finish crosscuts just score a deep line with a knife all the way around the board at your finished length (after squaring the opposite end) and cut a slightly weak sixteenth off the line. Finish up with a smoothing plane coming in from both edges until the line just crumbles and you'll be dead on. Cutting to an incised line will certainly be a test of your ability to saw in a straight line and to saw square to the face. Have fun. It's a skill worth acquiring and anybody who says it's easy hasn't done it enough to matter (they got lucky the few times they've done it) or they're a liar.
Most saws will have a little drift one way or another caused by a slightly uneven set - even saws set by an experienced saw filer (gasp and be damned but it IS true). You'll learn to compensate for this without even thinking about it. All-in-all, I've been surprised how well set those toolbox saws are - probably set by a machine that applies even, consistent pressure. Don't know for sure and don't care. I use saws, I don't manufacture them. Happy to leave that to somebody else.
Good sawing.
Are those hardpoint saws good for ripping too?<!----><!----><!---->
I have a (diston D8? 5-1/2 point) saw that I have tried sharpening. It works *OK*, but It just seems that re-sawing and ripping takes forever. <!----><!---->
Is the saw I have the best thing to use for ripping and re-sawing by hand? <!----><!---->
I really dread the re-sawing... (Usually 1x8x36" boards)<!----><!---->
I strongly suspect either my sharpening skills, sawing technique or expectations are in need of some adjustment... however if the hardpoint saws would be better I will give them a try..
I now only work "unplugged" (it been about year (6 projects) and love it. It the only way I get any real shop time since my boys are either with me or sleeping... Note: 2 & 4 year old boys love eggbeater drills and a stack of 1x6's... <!----><!---->
One interesting thing... I did fire up my jointer a few days ago... it was a rare case where I did get some alone time... <!----><!---->
I flattened 2 boards.. turned off the jointer and picked up my planes.. I did not feel conformable around the machine anymore. As a hobbyist it is truly a luxury to be able to “work” the way I want to.
Yep, they rip and resaw (resawing is always compartively slow) fine. To rip, make a mark with a marking gauge, rip wide of the line (a weak sixteenth) and clean up to the line (until it just crumbles) with plane. Again, you have the keep the saw square to the face or you risk undercutting the board on the backside - you'll have a beveled board and if the bevel goes in the wrong direction the board will be too narrow for your application.
The eight point crosscut saw you have will be a good all around saw that will rip and crosscut. You can't crosscut with a rip saw unless the rip saw is a 9pt. or finer bow saw. A western style rip saw will mangle the hell out of a board if you try to crosscut with it.
The trick to resawing is to REALLY let the saw do the work. Don't press down - just move your arm as a unit and let the saw progress at its own pace. You're looking for a smooth stroke (like a Tom Weiskopf golf swing), not a jabby, punchy action. Use as much of the blade as you can, but don't buckle it at the toe.
Edited 8/22/2008 1:03 pm ET by BossCrunk
If you're having trouble ripping with a Disston 5 pt., it's likely that the teeth have been filed with way too much rake. Take a close look at the teeth - the front of each tooth should be 90 degrees to the bottom of the tooth gullet, and the face of each tooth should be straitght across the saw (90 degrees to the saw plate). The terminology to describe that tooth geometry is a 0 degree rake, 0 degree fleam. Also take a look at the set - the teeth should alternate so that the inside of the tooth just barely overlaps with the next one in line.
That tooth geometry will give the most aggressive cut while ripping, but is also the hardest to start. When ripping, the difficulty of starting the cut doesn't matter that much, because you only do it once for a long length of sawing. Cross-cutting is a different story.
Saw filers will give a rip saw a slight rake and a slight fleam if the saw is to be used to cut very hard wood. However, that compromise will slow the saw's progress down a bit.
You might consider having Steve Cooke sharpen your rip saw once so you'll know what it can do. I think it's about 15 dollars plus shipping. I have one he sharpened -- works well.
If you want to work unplugged, you really need to get your saws sorted out. If your D8 is cutting too slowly it may be dull or it may have too much rake. (It also could be too short). Resawing an 8" wide board is a big deal. I doubt it was common in 18th c cabinetshops. I resaw pine 1x12's x3 or 4' and that can take a good 10-15 minutes.I really doubt you are going to find a hardware store saw that will be better than a well sharpened D8. In fact, I'm familiar with the hardware store saws and none will perform as well. Also, I've never been a big fan of the D8. I don't like skew backed saws at all. I find #8 or #7 to be vastly superior and the 18th c blade shapes (even more rectangular) to be better still. The blade shape changes the center of gravity and overall weight of the tool dramatically. A heavier toe is certainly advantageous when sawing thick stock. Keeping your cut plumb is easier said than done. My advice is to mark both sides of the board and frequently flip it over. Eventually, you'll find your are right where you want to be when you flip. That's when you'll know you don't need to do that anymore. But I still do it when I'm working thick stock and when I need to stay close to the line. Adam
I desperately wanted to believe the two straightback D-7s (rip and xcut) that I bought from Pete Taran (in perfect shape and filed by Pete) were going to be the be-all and end-all of sawing. They didn't cut a damn bit better than my Pax skewback rip and xcut saws that they were going to 'replace.' The set up on the Disstons was for hardwood - rake angles, fleam and all that rot. Oh, I thought they cut better when I first got them. Nothing but psychology. I picked up the Pax rip after I'd made several cuts with the Disston and the Pax was like butter. Sold the Disttons on EBay and got about half of what I paid Pete for them. Still have a bad taste in my mouth on that one and mad at myself for giving in to the hype. Won't make that mistake again.I have a Sandvik xcut and a Stanley short toolbox saw- these are the saws that go with me if I need to hit the road. Truth is, none of the above mentioned saws out cut these two cheap workhorses.
Edited 8/24/2008 4:51 pm ET by BossCrunk
I like my disston and atkins saws. None were terribly expensive from e-bay, flea markets, and inherited from grandads. They cut as expected and their handles are invariably better to use than any contemporary Western saws I've used in the past.
Also, I think it's hard to generalize. Different woods saw differently, just as they carve differently, plane differently, etc. The set, fleam, etc. that does the job great on a piece of pine, may not do maple or oak as well, or even vary in different pieces of the same species sometimes. But really, a decent tool will do well enough or better in most situations. As with many other tool issues, many woodworkers enjoy obsessing about finer points that have little significant bearing on overall performance. I gotta tell you, for me the main characteristic that matters in most tools is that it is sharp.
Oh, fwiw, I really like my dozukis and ryoba a lot too.
Edited 8/24/2008 5:47 pm ET by Samson
Are you coming to the conference in Kentucky? I've used Pax saws. Any of my saws, Disstons or newly made can easily outperform the PAx. Pete may have filed too conservatively for you. I'd love you to try some of mine. I'll be teaching in Kentucky in March. I would be fun to meet you and compare notes.Adam
I guess the central point I'm making is that it's not worth the hoopla. I filed the Pax saws and must have hit the sweetspot, strangely enough I learned saw filing by reading Pete's site and pretty much use the same rake angles, etc. that he used in the blurb he has on his website.I've spent all the time I've allotted for dinking around with saws (other than regular filing of the ones I have now). My biggest challenge in the shop is trying not to tread the same ground over and over again. Not doing it with the saws - they cut well enough, though I don't doubt there might be something out there with a slightly different setup that would work a *little* better but I don't intend to spend any more time looking as I have other pressing deficiencies, mainly my lack of overall talent that no saw in the world is going to fix.I guess the best cutting saws I had were ECE bowsaws, but I did sell them too. Long story.I've also become smitten with toolchests and the notion that at some point in history what a woodworker needed to perform his job would fit in one. Don't need a fifteen saw inventory for every possible circumstance that might arise. I'd just give up and buy a Felder before I did that.
Edited 8/25/2008 6:58 am ET by BossCrunk
What rake angles are you using? I would decide about a sweet spot after I tried a really well filed saw. Have you ever had one of Mike's in your hand? Again, I've used Pax saws. See, the thing is, rips are time consuming and energy draining. If you can get a hand saw that will do that job easier or faster, it's worth the quest.It'd be fun to see one of the ww mags review rip saws.Adam
I don't find the rips any more draining or time consuming than they were with the collectible and well prepared Disston sold to me by Taran.
Mike has never gotten a wild hair and shipped me a saw for the heck of it. He's welcome to do so if he reads this thread.5* of rake on my Pax rip and I believe the same on Pete's saw. I never re-filed Pete's saws... realized that the improvement over what I had was marginal to nonexistent... went back to the Pax I had in the shop. Done dinking with saws.... still trying to come up with some killer designs of my own.... chairs, et al.Gotta run....
Edited 8/25/2008 2:18 pm ET by BossCrunk
I think Boss is right about not needing 15 different saws for every occassion. For the average guy that uses power tools, a good dovetail saw is about the only precision saw he'll need (and not even that if he uses a router and a jig to cut dovetails), and the only other one is an aggressive, inexpensive crosscut for rough-cutting lumber that's too big for the table saw or miter box.
What you're largely paying for in an antique disston (made before 1930's) is comfort in the handle. Inexpensive cross-cut saws from Home Despot fall down in this category - the handles have sharp corners cut out by computer controlled routers. Also, a good number of modern, aggressive cross-cut saws have impulse-hardened teeth and cannot be sharpened (a file will not cut the teeth), so they're throw-aways. However, if all you use a saw for is to occasionally break down a big board, the handle comfort and sharpenability don't matter.
I am going to disagree with you that all the are paying for is the comfortable handle in old saws. I have just made the transition to vintage saws from the hardware store ones currently available. I picked up a couple of vintage disstons, including a D-12 lightweight and a D-8. Cleaned the up and had them both sharpened by Kevin Cook. They cut like butter. Both are set cross cut and are 10 tpi. I can tell the difference between the D-8 and D-12. Last night I was cross cutting oak and I may never go back to my table saw.Dan Carroll
I'm with you and Adam on good crosscut saws, and good dovetail saws. Properly sharpened, they are a joy to use, and a lot better than anything in the Borg. Rip saws are another matter. I have a couple but have not mastered the use except to note that it is tiresome. I plan to learn the skill, just because I want to, but will probably stick to power saws for most ripping.Just picked up an old rip with 4 1/2 tpi. It shold be fun as soon as it is sharp.Joe
You're exactly right. I bought a comfortable handle for 200 bucks a pop. What using the *relatively* uncomfortable Pax handle has taught me is how to grip a saw very lightly and to really let the saw do the work. Perhaps that's why I'm so pleased with the Pax. I finally learned how to let go and let the saw do the work. It's kind of like that Eureka moment in golf when you learn how to relax and let the club and centrifugal force do the work and watch the ball disappear farther and straighter than you'd ever hit it in your life.
OK Boss,
This time you have gone way too far! I basically agree with most of what you write but this time you have ventured into that damned infernal game of golf. It's a game not fit for man nor beast, yet it has now reared it's ugly head here in a topic (woodworking) that I hold dear to my heart.
My golf issues were resolved several years ago (for a while at least) when my oldest GITette borrowed my clubs for a friend of hers to use. The clubs disappeared! I don't know if it was due to her imbiding too much at the 19th hole, or if some shennagans happened that resulted in the disappearance of the clubs, but I was happy for a while as I didn't have to embarrass myself as I didn't have clubs.
But a strange thing happened last fall: a set of clubs (not mine) reappeared in the back of my Jeep. New bag, almost like new irons and woods and new putter. I hurried home to place these is the basement so as to not be dragged out to a curse, I mean course, to be embarrassed again.
I am dismayed that since the re-appearance, even though I have yet to swing these damned instruments of the devil, I do find myself looking a specialty high loft wedge, ten-times oversize drivers and whatever else those vendors of dismay peddle. These catalogs are amazing in telling me how to cure all these ills that my non-existent golf game has! I too, can be a Tiger Woods!
Dang similar to all those WW catalogs that accompany the morning constitutional!
Have a good one!
Tony Z.
I'm back down to scratch (it's been years) and I think I could get my index to +1 if I keep playing like I have been. I've never swung the club so well. Shot a 68 (par 72) from the tips at a resort course in Tunica, MS about a week ago. 7,000 yards from the tips, slope of 119.All I'm doing is letting go. At the moment, it's frickin' golf heaven.At the moment, I'm playing an old set of Titleist DCI 990 irons (late 1990's) and the old Titleist 975D driver and 975F fairway woods. I carry a Ping 23* hybrid which is the newest club in the bag. Vokey wedges about five years old - grooves are looking ragged.
Edited 8/25/2008 3:01 pm ET by BossCrunk
Yoy!
You ought to hook up with Mr. Mel so the two of you can apply some NASA astromath and come up with the next best thing for golf!
My oldest daughters are excellent golfers. My wife and I are not. For a hobby, I think I'll stick to woodworking. Less embarassing in my shop since I'm usually the only one in there!
T.Z.
"Less embarassing in my shop since I'm usually the only one in there!"Words to live by, TOny. WOrds to live by. And if you have to change a design for any reason, who's to say, or know that you didn't just like the new way better?J
Pan,
There are many ways for humans to waste their time on Earth but golf must rank high in the list of pointless pursuits. Perhaps your indulgence in this knocking of little balls into a hole using a stick is the explanation of your fear of sharpening blades for more than 5 seconds - you have alsready wasted far too much valuable time with the little white bollocks! And at last I understand your bad temper - it's that silly frustrating game that has got you fuming!!
My advice is that you put aside the sticks and balls in favour of a bicycle. This will get you out and about the pleasant landscapes, improve your thrusting muscles and take the edge of all that extra energy you bottle up by riding the golf cart whilst fuming about not getting the ball into the hole with only 8 shots.......
Lataxe, not inclined to go batty.
"It's kind of like that Eureka moment in golf when you learn how to relax and let the club and centrifugal force do the work and watch the ball disappear farther and straighter than you'd ever hit it in your life."
Ha! I haven't experienced that yet - at least consistently. After 20 years playing the game, I find it considerably easier to split the knife line with a dovetail saw than to hit the green on a par 3 drive. Tiger Woods, I'm not. ;-)
Here's feedback on 1st use of my new Stanley Hardpoint handsaw. It's a 26", 8 point per inch saw with a plastic handle. Fits my hand nice. The points on the saw blade are not as sharp as I'd expected.I made three cross-cuts through 12" of 5/4 curly maple. The saw tracks nicely, makes a smooth cut, and the blade stays nice and quiet without getting into wobbling vibration on the backstroke that I've sometimes experienced with handsaws.Technique - hand relaxed, index finger pointing down the blade, letting the saw do the cutting and not "powering down" on the blade in an attempt speed up the cut.It took quite a long time to my time sense to make each cut - 5 minutes by my watch for each. Is this normal for cross cutting? Seems sort of slow, but it's been so many years since I've used a handsaw, I have no point of reference.Regards,
Mike D
Edited 9/10/2008 8:12 pm ET by Mike_D
It does sound like your saw may be a bit dull - the points should feel really sharp if you graze your finger across them.
That said, 5/4 curly maple is HARD. 5 minutes, depending on your stroke count, is a bit long to make a 12 inch cut, but it's not an eternity either.
An awful lot of the "big box" store "toolbox" cross-cut saws are more designed to rapidly cut softwoods than they are to cut hardwoods. Wouldn't surprise me if they were a bit slow going through something like soft maple (why that's called "soft" is beyond me - maple is hard as glass compared to almost all but rosewood, ebony, and a few other tropical species).
Don't worry about it.
Make a mental note of how well it's all going on about the 100th cut. In the meantime, put the pieces together that you've already cut to make something.
I'm with Charles. Keep working and worry about speed later. I can think of a couple things that are making that saw slow, some of which could be fixed. But forget about that now. When you are looking to rip 20' of that same material and you're looking at spending over an hour doing it, then we'll reconvene. That's when having really great saws becomes important. In my book, any saw cut that takes 5 minutes or less is a success. All the hubbub about saws is really for folks who are holding their saws for half hour or more at a time. I used a gent's saw for all my dt'ing for years. As long as the work was occassional in nature, it was fine. But after spending 4 hours with it one day and finding I couldn't open my hand the next morning, I thought it was time for an upgrade. Adam
Mike, one thing you might want to try is altering the angle of the saw a little to see if you hit a sweetspot somewhere. If and when you do you'll notice it immediately. Lock the feel of that angle in your mind and then have fun.
You could be running the saw a little on the shallow side.
That strikes a chord. Yep, definitely on the shallow side. I'm sawing on the workbench, approx 36". Now that I think about it, the workpiece should be on a solid bench about knee level with my knee on it. That'd steepen up the angle a bunch.I'll try that the next time I need to shorten a board.MikeD
You also need to make sure that you are sawing square to the face - that you aren't putting event he slightest bevel to the end. Not sawing perfectly square increases the effort and slows the cut. It might take some practice to learn to hold the saw at 90* to the board.
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