I am fairly new as a poster here. But I read all the posts. I am sure that this has been debated countless times but here goes my question.
Why on God’s green earth would anyone handcut dovtails when you can use a router and jig? I know some say that teh jig is fussy. But I gotta tell ya. A moron could not mess up through cut 3/4″ dovetails on the Leigh jig. My boys bought me the jig for Father’s Day. and I love it. I can not make a mistake. And I am prone to make lots of ww mistakes.
Is it the joy of cutting all by hand? Let me know– maybe I should try it. It just seems like a big time suck to cut by hand.
Thanks—
“the devil is ALWAYS in the details.”
Replies
I'll bite a bit. First, it is enjoyable. Second, depending upon the number you have to cut, it is faster. Third, it is definitely cleaner and quieter. Fourth, you can do DT's that are much smaller than is possible with a router.
Taste has no friends.
Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
I don't cut a lot of DT but when I do I use my band saw, Japanese pull saw, and chisel. There is a certain amount of pleasure in for me. If I were building a lot of drawers I would probably buy a jig of some sort.
les
"It just seems like a big time suck to cut by hand."
Of course it is. But the smile on my daughters face is a bit brighter when I tell her the box with dovetails was hand made using hand planes, back saws, chisels and time.
_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Pride. I feel more proud of my skills and accomplishments when I use hand tools.
Ultimately, one day, I want to build a piece of furniture or perhaps a musical instrument using no electricity whatsoever, not even for lighting. I know that's radical, but I feel that it will put me in better touch with those who defined the word "craftsmanship". I certainly don't want to use that plan for every project, but I want to know that I can do anything with my hand tools that I could do with my power tools.
Would I LOVE a Leigh jig? You bet...
Charlie
Like most things, there is no right or wrong answer to the question. It all depends on what you are tyring to do and what your skill level is.
Having talked to Frank Klaus and seen Gene Langdon, they would tell you for one to maybe four drawers, they could have the dovetails cut by hand by the time you got the jig set, the bit in router, everything set and tested. And ------ theirs would be equal to yours, or mine, with the jig.
But, even Frank Klaus has said, hey, if I have to do a bunch of drawers, I would use a router too.
And, as someone already mentioned, the jig is limited compared to what you can do by hand.
I have the jig too and love it. But there are times on certain pieces I want to do them by hand.
Have fun!!
Alan - planesaw+
Hi Mark,
I'm going to take a slighly different slant on this discussion. I also own a Leigh Jig and I think it is a wonderful tool and I am at a loss when people complain about how long or hard it is to set up. My expereince is that it is an extremely user friendly machine and can be set up very quickly.
Power tools make it so easy and I think we get caught up in the "bigger and faster is better" mentality that can cause us to lose sight of the reason we are crafting a special piece, usually for someone very special in our life.
I don't belong to the school of thought that professes that the old ways are better or more pure. IMHO, that is romantic dribble and if the "old craftsmen had had the benefit of today's woodworking tools, you bet your life they would have availed themselves of the precision and repeatability that comes from modern machinery.
Having said all of this, I think mastering handtools provides any craftsman with a wider range of options and I sincerely regret never having been taught how to use handtools. Have you noticed now peaceful your shop is when all of the equipment is turned off and just you, the wood and your thoughts? I guess it is kind of a Zen thing and maybe it is just aging that brings us more in touch with what is important to each of us.
For me, we are visiting Homestead Hetritage Center outrside of Waco this weekend and Im considering enrolling in their week-long school to learn to use hand tools. I have assured my power tools that I will still love them. :)
Doug.
Doug,
Assure your power tools all you want, once you start hanging out with hand tools you will invent all types of excuses to avoid plugging in the tailed apprentices! You've been warned by one who has stood on that edge you are standing now and is picking up speed on the slippery slope!
Marko,
It's an interesting question especially because the Leigh does such a good job. My two cents would be to echo the others (except maybe not the Zen stuff...my basement is too dirty) and to add that cutting dovetails is best method I'm aware of for learning how to use hand tools. You get instantaenous feedback if you did not saw squarely, measured incorrectly, chop correctly, etc....that have utility to other aspects of working with wood. So you may not want to hand cut dovetails after you've gained some proficiency but initially it's great learning experience.
Marko I have several DT jigs including the Leigh jig. I have cut DT's in the past by hand and by machine and for the most part people don't care how it was cut as much as they care how it looks. It is all about repeatability for me. If I have a big job then the out comes the jig as time matters to me but if it is a high end piece than the extra time effort and care is put into hand cutting DT.
The way I look at woodworking tools is simple. Woodworking started out as two or more pieces of wood being lashed together to make a item. As time went by someone figure out how to make a tool to speed up a task. The tool lead to a better more refined tool and so on and so on. The reason we have the tools we do to day is somewhere a woodworker figure out how to create a more useful item to do a task faster and/or better. Maybe the next generation will be sitting down to a computer and designing parts to be cut out with some sort of automated process while most of us will be sitting back bitching about how back in the old days we used table saws and bandsaw to cut out stock.
In short use you jig and go and make something out of wood and take pride in it.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Scott, where the heck is your website? I just get this big slice of maple on my screen...
Works good for me. Try the link below it will bring you to the main page.
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/renay.frankland/index2.html
I have to update my site as I have alot of new tools and changes made to the shop layout.Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
I appreciate it and that link that worked fine. I wonder if the link on your post, which i tried several times yesterday and once just now, worked for you and not for me bec of something cached on your computer, but not mine? It would be interesting if others gave feedback on your link, though it certainly wouldn't be the first time i was the anomalous one.
I hadn't seen a chisel-plane before. Thanks, Scott.
Colleen
The main index page is all Java. I know at work it doesn't work because Java script is disabled for security reasons.Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
For me, your question is part of the larger issue of a love-hate relationship with machines generally and the router above all. It's such a horrible, screaming, dusty device, yet it excels at so many tasks. Mortises, for example. For your typical mortise I don't think there's anything that cuts cleaner or faster than a plunge router with a built-in fence. But I sure do hate putting on the ear protectors and eye protectors and dust mask. It takes all the fun and relaxation out of woodworking, which is why I'm there in the first place.
For dovetails, I eschew the router but that doesn't mean I do it all by hand. I don't really enjoy chopping, so I make the saw cuts by hand but use a band saw to get rid of most of the waste and then just chop the little that's left. It's an arbitrary compromise but one that works for me and just goes to show that there's no one "right" answer to these things. In fact, I find that even my own "right" answer changes over time.
marko,
I suppose the explanation of why some like to hand cut their dovetails and others like to use various machines, depends on why they like to do wood work in the first place: whether their interest is on the product or the process.
Many like to make things of wood just so they then have that thing; their interest is in obtaining the product. By economic necessity, those who make their money working with wood fall into this category: they need to place their emphasis on producing the best product the fastest way they can.
Other wood workers find their enjoyment by simply working the wood; in the process of altering the wood from one thing to another.
I imagine most of us lie somewhere between those extremes. I like to make useful things from wood. I've made all sorts of things from wood to fulfill a perceived need or want. But first and foremost, I like working the wood. I like applying tools to the medium, learning how to use them in harmony with the nature of the wood itself. I enjoy learning new skills, teaching my hands and eyes to do new things. I like the feel, the sound of a well sharpened plane making wispy shavings.
I cut my dovetails by hand.
Alan
I don't use them very often with the stuff I build, but cut them by hand or with my scroll saw when I do.
Generally prefer to cut them by hand, it's quieter and gives me needed practise with them.
Jigs seem to take quite a while to set up and get right, unless you're making a production run it (to me) isn't worth the time. One or two drawers are easier and faster to cut by hand.
OTOH, were I doing a production run a Leigh would be a good investment.
Roanoke VA
Hi, Marko
I cut my dovetails by hand because I can, and because I have time. As Alan touched on, many of us enjoy the process - the product is something I usually give away. Why rush something you enjoy?
At Homestead Heritage, I learned that woodworking can be a social activity. The last thing I built was a joint project with two neighbors. In great part, this was because we used hand tools as much as possible. We had the radio playing softly in the background as we worked.
Hope this helps,
Dan
Marko Many of the pieces I work on are reproductions or restorations of early pieces. Most of us can look at a dovetailed drawer at 30 paces and tell if it machine or hand cut. The look and size of hand-cuts are TOTALLY different from machine cuts. or.....
to take it in a different field, I use my computer to print out many pages of text (instructions, newsletters, etc..) Yes, it is clean. Yes, it is easy to read. Now take a REALLY old book and look at the page. There is a world of difference in the look, style and ratio of black (ink) to white (paper) on a page of handset type. Even the paper has a totally different feel to it. Now back to your question... I cut dovetails by hand because, for that particular piece, it has the correct look and feel. I've yet to see a router bit that can make the super small dovetails that have the proper look for an fine 1840's reproduction. SawdustSteve
Well Marko I am a hobbyist and my woodworking skills are improving all the time but I am light years behind many true craftspeople.
With that said, I love all the aspects of handcutting dovetails. To me, woodworking is a relaxing respite from my job. My dovetails are not perfect but they still look nice when finsihed and I get enormous satisfaction out of the process. I can say, " say look at that I did this with saw, hammer and chisel pretty nice !! Maybe next time they'll be even a little bit better."
Yes, these jigs are nice and after set up things go quick and the joinery is really almost perfect. I do not do woodworking for speed, I do it to smell the wood, work with my hands, hand plane just to hear as plane go over some wood!
So that is my thought on this subject!
Bill
I couldn't have said it better myself.
I would only add: Don't be tense and nervous about doing a "perfect job" the first time or in a big hurry. Some of my most pleasant moments in the shop are when I learn to do something right that I have done wrong many times before, or when a piece of advice finally "clicks."
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