I have started down the path of restoring old saws. The questions I have is, is it possible to take a cross cut saw — say in the 8TPI range and refile, set it for rip work? It is fairly easy to find cross cut saw, but rip saws are much harder so locate and most of the ones I have seen are fairly course. If I have something really long to rip, I will use the table saw or band saw.
Dan Carroll
Replies
Certainly it is possible to change from a crosscut to a rip by refiling.
I believe that Frank Klaus in one of the Tauton videos showed how to do that.
But, if the saw plate can be filed, then they can be filed flat if you wish and change tooth configurationas you wish. Or keep the tpi and change tooth orientation, or...
The limit then is your ability and the amount of labor you wish to put in.
Mike
Yeah - It's actually (in my opinion, at least) to change a cross-cut tooth profile to a rip profile than it is to do the opposite. However, I'm surprised you're finding it difficult to pick up a rip saw. Old Disston ripsaws on e-bay don't sell for all that much, probably because most woodworkers would much rather use a table saw to rip than a hand saw. The crosscut-filed saws are heavily competed for, particularly if they're from Disston's Golden Age (before 1917).
Yes, it's absolutely possible if you like the challenge, but for the time and effort, I'd rather have my saw sharpening shop do it for me. As others have said, look around, there are lots of rip saws out there on e-bay, craigs list, etc. Don't forget that yard sales as another source.
SawdustSteve
Let me be a little clearer. Rip saws are certainly out there -- but most of them are in the 5 to 6 tpi range or fairly course. They ought to be good fast cutting saws, but like most wood workers, I am going to reach for a table saw if a have something long to rip. I am looking for a something with a higher tooth count that will be smoother for the smaller types of cuts I am likely to do by hand. Or am I completely off base here in my thinking.Dan Carroll
Tenon and dovetail sorts of saws (back saws) are typically rip. They work well on smaller pieces. Full length 5 and 7 TPI type hand saws will work on anything larger. Most rips made with such saws were typically cleaned up with planes in my understanding, so super smoothness was not required. Remember that in the ripping operation, you don't want too many teeth, as the teeth are behaving more like chisels than slicers.
I like japanese hand saws for small hand ripping jobs.
I did a lot of this in the past, Dan. What you need to do is joint off half of those teeth at least. Basically you want to start with decent gullets, then re-file from there. You can't sorta convert x-cut teeth to rip teeth. The fleam isn't the only problem. The rake is usually too high as well.
The problem with this sort of work is that its a lot of work and you end up with a saw that isn't so great. I currently make a 8ppi saw with a nice thick toe out of .032. See it here:
http://www.adamcherubini.com/Long_Saws.html
Mike Wenz makes similar blades here:
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/
I'm not kidding when I say I'm going to stop accepting saw orders in a matter of days or weeks. I'm not trying to sell you my saws. But I went through what you are doing and its why I started making saws 5 or 6 years ago. Having had well over 100 antique saws in my shop at one time, I can now say the new boutique saws (Mike hates that term) are simply better tools than used up turn of the century flea market saws. If you found the equivalent of a pristine bedrock, then maybe it would be worth your while. Otherwise, I'd liken it to the difference between a WWII S#4 and a LN #4.
Adam
Having had well over 100 antique saws in my shop at one time, I can now say the new boutique saws (Mike hates that term)...
I think the term is too fluffy. Too prissy. At least how it has been used in the last few decades. It's not that I "hate" the term per se, but I hate the modern connotation it invokes in me. But I also think it simply doesn't apply. As long as I am on a roll over terms I dislike, I also "hated" Gina Eide's use of the term "high-end" to describe our tools.
Neither of those terms are properly applied to our typical offerings.
So tell me, Adam, what is your definition of boutique?
Take care, Mike
Hell nobody asked me but the term "boutique" reminds me of beer, boutique beers were the small breweries that sprung up in nearly every city starting in the early 90's (or thereabouts).
The term implied quality over quantity, small batches, plenty of care taken in chosing materials and crafting good product in "preindustrial" sorta way.
To my mind it describes what you do aptly, even though it sounds frilly. I've had your saws a year or more now I use them all the time. Every time I use them I smile and congratulate myself on a good buy.
I forgot already how much they cost.
David
Hi David,
Thank you for the kind words.
One of my issues with the term is that, well, it's not a historical use as applied to tool makers--especially from Adam's chosen period of work <g>. In fact, I haven't seen it used in France (its origination), England et al to describe tool makers large or small, specialized/custom or general in printed matter.
As applied to tool makers, it seems a bit schtick to sell tools, a marketing gimmick. Used to elevate the maker beyond "mere" tool makers.
I'm more than happy to be considered a mere tool maker.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Maybe you can combine your business with that advertiser on The Prairie Home Companion: "Bertha's Kitty, and Mike's Saw, Boutique".
Sorry, but that's what I think of when I hear "boutique". Saw maker. Nothing could be more descriptive.
Ray
Hey Ray--that made me chuckle. I tried saying it in all sorts of affected accents. Other than the boys having another reason to have me committed, it just didn't do it for me. Instead, what rang through the noggin was...
"I'll take one of thooose. And oh my gawd, I'll take one of thooose. And darling, I simply must have one of those cute little ones..."
Yep. I prefer about anything to boutique. Aside from weird associations is conjures up in my little mind, it simply isn't appropriate.
Now, "Uncle Ray's Furniture Emporium" has a nice ring to it.
Take care, Mike
mike,
"Uncle Ray's Furniture Emporium"
Next time I paint my sign, I'll consider that. I can use the furniture to display the bottles of elixer for female disorders, hair restorer and pomade, and snake oil.
Uncle Ray
Hi Uncle,
I once tried to purchase an old, delapidated structure I was going to relocate to our property for a shop. I actually toyed with using such names. But then I sobbered up...
Take care, Mike
Can someone tell me where to measure "height at heel." I'm thinking it's not that dumb of a question (but I could be wrong). And I imagine length is measured from the furthest points of the exposed blade. Thanks.
Not a dumb question at all.
If the saw is standing on a flattish surface, teeth down, measure the end of the blade under the handle (the heel) to the topmost point of the blade.
Many hand saws have the highest point of the blade forward of the very rear of the blade at the heel--the saw plate is cut at an angle. So the measurement is actually from that point down the the flattish surface.
On a back saw, the measurement is typically expressed as 'usable depth'. That is the amount of cutting depth immediately in front of the handle from the bottom edge of the back to the tips of the teeth directly below.
Take care, Mike
Okay, Mike, so with the handle still on, I measure from the front point of the handle straight down, which is foward of the heel several inches. I'm guessing it makes a difference, because I see D-8s for sale and described as like 7 1/4 , 7 1/2, 7 5/8, etc., by the same dealer. If I measure as I say above, I get like 6 3/8. My saw looks exactly like this, but this is not my picture:
Ha, the cover-top saws like the D-8 (well, all the latter D-series) are weird to measure. Technically, the highest point of the blade is just inside the handle at the forward most point. That's because the shape of the blade is actually in a circular shape (a 7" diameter is the shape). But I would measure it to the high point of the handle directly in front of the thumbhole.
Really, the measurements on a hand saw that "matter" are like the measurements to describe a backed saw. How much usable depth under the handle and how wide at the toe.
Most likely if the saw you own is of similar depth below the handle like the picture you have included, and the toe is a fw inches (or there about) it wasn't a highly used saw during its life. They are good saws.
Take care, Mike
Now we talked about this and what did I tell you? Boutique breweries - quality over quantity, craftsmanship, all positives.Now the period correct term would be MONGER. Tool MONGER, fish MONGER, beer MONGER?. I'm not crazy about MONGER. I think it has a negative connotation in the modern lexicon. But I'll call you a saw MONGER if you really want me too. Now I agree boutique sounds like pressed flowers and drift wood, (say it with me now) NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT. It could well have been Chris Schwarz who assigned that term to you. I've met Chris. He does carry a man purse (say it with me now) NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Frankly, the term doesn't bother me. But then again, I've been accused of being a female impersonator from Guam (one last time) NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.Adam
Well, I believe the monger moniker would be aptly used to describe a seller of widgets or a specific type of commodity. The lists that abound in describing specific tool makers such as "saw makers" is...wait for it...saw maker. And plane maker. And "insert tool or tools" maker. Sometimes as generic cutlery maker.
But not monger. So while period correct, isn't used to describe the maker proper. One could argue that because I also sell direct to the consumer, I would be double billed as a maker and monger. Or perhaps a mongrel. But I would accept "monger" by those who equate the portion of our activity which deals direct to the public and wanted to be period correct. Else, I guess there are modern equivilents to the monger moniker. Boutique ain't it, though.
And yes, we had a couple email exchange over this word's (boutique's) use. I didn't agree then, either. I simply do not see it applied to tool makers in documents prior to recently. And while language shifts, it doesn't make it correct usage other than being some hip, inaccurate trendy way to describe tool makers.
[French, from Old French botique, small shop, from Old Provençal botica, from Latin apothca, storehouse; see apothecary.]
Far be it from me to prevent another from applying the term to themselves. At the same time, I do not see how it applies to us.
I just met Chris for the first time this week. He's in Portland teaching. He and the class showed up here at the shop last night. Great fun for us.
Take care, Mike
Mike:In India, I learned that somebody who did something was a ___walla. So, for example, if you are one of the guys who delivers lunch in little round tins called "tiffens" to people all over Bombay, you are a "tiffin-walla." If you make and sell hats, you are a hat-walla (or whatever the local language calls hats). I used to tease a graduate school classmate of mine (in Dallas) who was from an upper caste that as he lived in an apartment and had to clean his own bathroom, he was becoming a toilet-walla. This was something I made up, but traditionally bathroom cleaning and such is a lower caste job.SO, to simplify your job description, how about Wenzloff & Sons, Saw-Wallas? People could then skip over all the other adjectives and just say that they got some stuff from that saw-walla out in Oregon. JoePS, I am very pleased with the saws I recently received from said saw-walla.J
Edited 7/18/2008 11:06 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Pardon me for jumping in here, but Mike Wenzloff - you may be stuck with this one.
"Mike Wenzloff esq. Saw-Walla to the stars!"
That has a homey ring to it, doesnt it? (grin)
Mike
PS I love my large tenon saw!
Heck, Joe, I like -walla too.
What's a feller to do. I have way too many terms that seem applicable now. But...
Wenzloff & Sons, Saw-Wallas
I think I might have my next batch of business cards printed thatta way.
India, huh? I have long wanted to go there. What brought that on I think was reading MM Kaye's book, The Far Pavillions as an impressionable youngster. Of course, I reread it in the cabin by lamp light many years later. Simply reinforced the desire. One day...
Take care, Mike
I read KIM as a child, and always thereafter wanted to go to India. It is a wonderful, fascinating place to those from the west with open minds who are willing to accept a world radically different from their own, along with some dirt and smells.Joe
If you moved to Washington, you could be the Walla-Walla-Saw-Walla, and if someone visited you they could say they saw the... well, you get the drift.J
And Mike, While I always pay particular attention to your posts, shouldn't you be in the shop making saws?! (hahaha)? No, really, I have a half-back on my wish list at lee valley but they aren't due in until 31 July. Beats the wait ordering from your website! Actually I'm glad business is so good for you. Thanks for your posts.jacksykesville, md
You must be close by judging by your 'handle'. Are in in Sykesville proper or just that part of Howard County? I am just up the road in Walkersville.Dan Carroll
Howard County, a mile from the Carrol County line. Nice to meet you.
Hi Dan,
I meant to respond the other day and got called away from the computer that night.
You can do anything to most any saw you find. For cutting stuff that is less than 3/4", consider finding a shorter panel saw (whether cross cut or rip, doesn't matter) rather than a full 26" or longer saw. The saw plate will be thinner, generally the teeth are going to be finer pitched already.
In stuff 1/2" to 3/4", I would say look for a panel saw in the 20"/22" range, and if you find a few, pick one with a solid handle, no rust and 10 ppi or so. If you have a service punch new teeth, have them do between 4 and 8 degrees of rake if you will be cutting harder woods.
In stuff at or a little below 1/2", consider an even shorter 16" to 18" panel saw, with 11-12 ppi. Same deal on the rake.
If you decide to refile it yourself, don't sweat it. It isn't that difficult. Posting here and asking questions or looking at Pete Taran's instructions will get the saw to a wonderfully cutting state.
Take care, Mike
Thanks for the info, coming from you I can have real confidence in the outcome.Dan Carroll
Dan, if you go the vintage route don't fret about the refurb--you can refurb a saw and make it be usable to you. For your chosen application.
And an aside about the sharpening. In all likelihood, you will make any saw you find if the teeth are not in good shape better. Whether you find them on the 'Bay, Cragslist, your neighbor's house or a vintage tool dealer. It doesn't matter (with the caveat they need to have good bones to begin with). You will make them better even if the teeth are not so-called perfect when done. Really.
Take care, Mikewho's too tired to do much today...think I'm going to go fishing. Or something.
I have started down the slope and purchased a disston #7 22 inch panel, a Disston D-8 skew back (24 inch, about 1930 or so vintage) and a Disston D-12 (26 inch). I have cleaned them up, done some minor report to the handles and sent them off to Mr. Cooke to resharpen. Once I have a bit more experience with them. I will go after a bit more. I have to get the feel of the tools a bit before I can form much more in the way of opinions and make decisions about what I want/need. Of course there is the 'look' as well. Adam's saws have such a different look you just want to pick them up and cut something. Same can be said of your work.
I see you point of being wanting to be known as a 'tool maker'. That really does say it all when put in the context of history and craft.
Dan Carroll
Dan,
There are two easy answers and they are in your "neck of the woods" so to speak. One of the best (from a professional point of view of someone who did it professionally all their life) is Tom Law. Tom lives in Maryland and will gladly spend a bit of time with you. A DVD of his teaching saw sharpening can be found many places, but here is the first one I found:
http://www.mjdtools.com/books/134051.htm
The other, is send your saw just up the road to Steve Cooke at Cooke's Saw Sharpening in York, PA. You'll see Steve here on Knots Forum once in a while. Steve sharpens handsaws for people all over the nation. Even some international business I believe.
The most current info I have (it has been a couple years since he sharpened something for me) is:
Cooke's Sharpening & Grinding
1702 W King St
York, PA 17404
Phone: (717) 845-7297
His email may be [email protected]
Enjoy,
Alan - planesaw
I sent a couple of saws up to Mr. Cooke last week. York PA is about 45 minutes away.Dan Carroll
Dan,
I'll be curious to hear what you think of the quality of Steve's work. My guess is you will be pleased with how well the saw performs.
Alan - planesaw
I will. I sent them off last Monday and should have them back sometime this week. All three of the ones I sent him were okay cutting before, but not great -- clearly in need of sharping. The #7 and the D-12 will be kept. The D-8 is going to my brother in law to play with. Now if I can just figure out how to pay for one of Adam's creations, I would be set.Dan Carroll
Excellent information, so glad I read this thread. While I love the new "boutique" tools, and I personally don't care what they are called, they are great (talking"high-end"), just today I bought a 1896-1917 Disston D-8 (based on Pete Taran's website explaining dating the medallion and other information), with dual grip (ie, thumb hole), and was just about to post a query as to where in Maryland to have it sharpened, though it cuts fine the way it is. It's perfectly straight and usable. I also bought four others - one more disston (haven't id-ed it yet), two "warranted superior"and another "no name" but cleary at least a hundred years old and very well made and in incredible condition. I'll post pictures in the morning.
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