Hammer C3-31 vs MiniMax CU 300 Classic (or Smart). I would appreciate advice from anyone who has had experience with both (or either) of these machines.
First I want to say that I am fairly giddy about the opportunity to get either one of these machines. I couldn’t be a luckier guy! Until even a month ago I would not have even dreamed of aspiring to this level of purchase. The total purchase price for either “package” is about $11,000, delivered and fork lifted into my shop. I’ve factored the purchase price into a large remodeling project and the customer has signed off on my bid.
I had all but finalized the order for a Hammer C3-31 combination table saw/shaper/jointer/planer. The machine was fitted with the 79″ “comfort package” sliding table, it’s dado-ready, and with a router spindle in place of the standard shaper (this is an either-or decision – cannot be changed after delivery). I was fairly satisfied with the configuration, but a little annoyed that many items, absolutely necessary to the operation of the machine needed to be added as optional extras, outside the quote for the machine. These included the eccentric clamp hold down, edging shoe, some needed extensions for the tables, etc. These were significantly expensive.
Then I was contacted by MiniMax. They have offered me a CU 300 Smart combo machine for essentially the same price. This machine is essentially the equivalent competition for the Hammer, but it also has a slot mortiser which is $1600 more on the Hammer. I have the option of either a 5.5 ft or 8 ft sliding table. With MiniMax, everything is included in the machine, there is no need to equip it with a myriad of needed optional pieces at high prices. The 3 motors are 4.8 hp vs 4 hp on the Hammer. Also, they are straight single phase motors. The Hammer apparently converts incoming single phase to 3-phase for its motors. The Hammer has motor brakes (the saw blade stops in less than 3 sec) the MiniMax does not. The MiniMax will come with an additional router spindle that I can swap in and out with the standard shaper spindle. That additional capability plus the slot mortiser certainly makes it look loke a much better value. Minimax has a 5/8″ arbor for its 12″ saw blade, Hammer is 30mm (about 1-1/4″) and has 2 extra holes in the blade that mate with arbor pins to absorb energy during braking. Blades for MiniMax then, are standard throughout the US, Hammer are special order from Freud, Forrest and other blade vendors.
I have no question at all about about the quality of either machine. I think thay are everything I could ever wish for in quality and engineering. MiniMax is in Austin, TX and I am told they have all parts for service in stock, whereas Hammer orders everything from their Austrian location. Both companies seem to be the highest quality with excellent reputations for customer service.
Any wisdom regarding either of these machines or the Minimax vs Hammer organizations?
Rich
Replies
Rich14, as you know I have the Hammer K3 saw/shaper and I love it. I looked at the Minimax and Felder/Hammer offerings and liked the Hammer better. I highly suggest you contact both companies and have them get you in contact with some owners of both machines. I would look at both machines and then decide. Felder/Hammer have a lot of accessories available and that is one of the things I like about the machines.
IMHO obtaing blades for the Felder/Hammer are not a problem. I guess MiniMax made it easy to just use you 10" blades on their saw. I suggest using 12", 300 MM or 315 MM blades as the tip speed is greater, also the European blades are designed to run at a faster speed, 5000 RPM on the Fielder/Hammer vs. 4000 RPM for the typical cabinet saw. The European standard sawblade bore is 30 MM in this diameter range so they are not special order from companies like Guhdo, Tenryu, Amana and others. The arbor on the Festool larger portable circular saw is 30 MM FWIW. Also, Felder sells an excellent dado with a 30 MM hole that can also be used on the shaper. I use a Guhdo Piano Plus for crosscuts. It is very quiet and cuts great. If you are a member of the FOG (Felders Owners Group) you get 25% off from Guhdo. My favorite blade for the Unisaw was a Tenryu Gold Metal. I could have it re-bored by Forrest for $20 but I think I will try Tenryu's Panel-Pro Series It already has a 30 MM bore and drive pin holes.
I would also recommend not getting the router spindle, get the shaper spindle instead. I think you will find the shaper very useful when working on the remolding project. BTW Felder has the Universal cutter head on sale for $159. This set includes 6 cutters and limiters and is for 30 MM spindles. The shaper has a 4 hp motor and is designed for shaper cutters. The highest speed of the spindle is 12,000 RPM and is not fast enough for most router bits. Get a router table with a variable speed router for router bit use. I have a Delta heavy duty shaper with a Bench Dog cast iron wing mounted for router table use. I use the router table for small router bits, the Delta shaper for medium duty use and the Hammer 4 hp tilting shaper for heavy duty use. The Hammer can use 1", 1 1/4" and 30 MM cutters.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Edited 11/11/2006 1:24 pm ET by JerryPacMan
Edited 11/11/2006 4:06 pm ET by JerryPacMan
Jerry,Thanks. I am leaving for Phoenix right now for a trade show to see the MiniMax.I'll be back in about 12 hours.Rich
HammerTime...
I have had the CU300 Smart for 3 years. I am very pleased with the machine. I agree that it represents the best value in the industry. It isn't long on bells and whistles, but the actual functions are excellent.
The table saw is great. It can take a 12" blade and the scoring blade at the same time. I don't believe that Felder does (you have to use a 10"). Don't know if Hammer follows suit here. The slider on the Smart is more substantial than on the Classic version. It is very easy to set up and dial in. Then it holds it's accuracy. My crosscut fence still cuts perfect square cuts 3 years later, even after taking the fence on and off several times a week. I've never stalled the blade.
The jointer/planer are also impressive. Changing the Tersa knives is very fast. The accuracy here is also constant and predictable. Every time I check the fence for square with my Starrett square, it is right on.
I don't use my shaper much these days, but it is very strong. I believe the router spindle will hold smaller 3/4" shaper cutters as well--check on this, 'cause I may be wrong. But if you anticipate using the shaper much, get the 1 1/4" spindle. It will make smoother cuts and allow you to use bigger cutters.
The mortiser moves smoothly. I use it a good bit.
http://www.jameseddywoodworks.com
To all,Thanks for the replies.I'm back from the trade show in Phoenix. The CU 300 smart combination machine is a very impressive piece of equipment. It was much bigger than I could have pictured. Bigger all around. The only word to describe it, with a standard cabinet saw as a frame of reference is massive. As my wife commented, a Delta nearby looked "rikety and small" in comparison. And very, very crude in construction, fit and finish. A 30 second comparison and she said, "It's like comparing a Chevy truck to an S-class Mercedes sedan." Of course, the price difference is also consistent with that observation.This saw is the smallest sliding table saw MiniMax makes. It is not really considered to be a production machine. It's not a hobbiest machine, that goes to their 10" blade "genius" model, but it's intended for the semi-professional user. Well, if this is not a production machine, standard cabinet saws are just for occasional model making. If one can turn out production work on a Delta or PM (and who can't?) the sky is the limit with a machine like this.Everything about the machine is impressive. It is robust and very, very precise. It has a much bigger "footprint" than the Hammer. The jointer/planer beds are larger. The Tersa head on the jointer-planer is a revelation. The blades are the thinest I have ever seen in a jointer. I simply would not have imagined such an evolution of the design. The way they lock into the head and are surrounded by the massive jaw, they almost become part of it. They slide out in a few seconds, new ones are back in just as quickly and when locked down are registered to less than .001".The machine had the 5.5' sliding table. I was surprised how big it seemed. I'll be getting the 8.5' version. It's not just a swap-out. The chassis is different in machines with different length sliders.One of the complaints I have heard about "euro" machines is that the rip fences are flimsy. On the Delta, I was able to deflect the far end of the Biesemeyer fence visibly with not much sideways force. This was with the fence firmly locked. (I have always preferred a fence that locks down at both ends. The Beisemeyer does not) I assure you the locking lever was tight and the rail was properly bolted to the frame. The MimiMax rip fence could also be deflected if I applied much, much more force than I did on the Delta, and the deflection was barely apparent. And one need never use the rip fence for ripping on this machine! The fence is used primarily as a material stop (a "stop block") for repeated sizes of cross cuts or rips of material held on the sliding table.The horizontal slot mortiser is the precision device it should be. (On the Hammer this is extra). I'll never use the router again to cut a mortise!Jim, it's not true this machine doesn't have "all the bells and whistles." It does!OK, I'll stop gushing now. One thing I wasn't prepared for. There was a $1400 discount for ordering at the show. What do you think I did?Hope I have enough money left over to take Italian language lessons! Or maybe I can teach my new baby to speak English.Rich
Way to go Rich!
I think you made a wise choice. With MM you usually get more bang for your buck.
nicobie,Thanks. They made me a terrific deal, even beyond the trade show discount. And talking to Jim Strain, the owner of the Austin MiniMax operation and Sam Blasco the demonstrator at the Phoenix Woodworking show sold me on the machine and the organization. They were both consumate gentlemen. Calm, articulate and informative.Sam is a professional woodworker who works for MiniMax, gives seminars on operating the machines and has a shop in Austin. I hope I can get to his shaper class next year.Let me tell you what clinched the deal. Here we were going over this ultimate machine that can straight line rip and parallel rip with the highest levels of saftey for the operator and precision beyond belief. And Sam tells me he does most of his ripping on the band saw! (Which is what I do to avoid that dreaded operation on my horribly inadequate table saw.) He said, "My sliding table saw (the top of the line MiniMax S350) kind of supplements my band saw!" I burst out laughing.I fully intend to use my SU 300 for ripping, but that kind of candor was great!BTW, I've gotten a lot of emails in addition to the replies on this thread. As I suspected would happen, the responses have been 50-50 for the 2 different brands.I have no doubt the Hammer is a superb machine. Heck, I had ordered it, just hadn't finalized the option list. But The MiniMax seems like a better deal for me.Rich
Edited 11/12/2006 5:27 pm ET by Rich14
Rich,
I am going throught the same decision process right now. Are you still happy with your decision? Can you tell me a little more on why you went with the minimax?
Mike
Rich,
I am going throught the same decision process right now. Are you still happy with your decision? Can you tell me a little more on why you went with the minimax? I know its been a long time since this was posted
Mike
My question to the original poster of the thread is did he look at the Hammer C3-31 Perform or just the Hammer C3-31 ; they're different. The Perform and Minimax cu300 Classic are almost identical. The one thing that really gets me with the Hammer compared to the Minimax is the dado ability and how the machines are set up to handle that type of blade.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled