Replies

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 13, 2006 06:19pm | #1

   Tom,

   Hammer veneering is my favorite task in woodworking.

   The most important step is to properly prepare the substrate; I do this by brushing on a coat of very thin hot hide glue, and letting this dry over night. This will prevent the glue used in the hammer veneering process, from being absorbed too quickly, and allows for a slightly thinner mixture for the actual veneering. The glue should run off the brush in a steady stream; if it forms drops it is too thin. Brush the glue evenly on the substrate. For large sheets, I let the glue gel, before putting the veneer in place. With the veneer in place, lightly mist its surface in a narrow strip down the center.  Start adhering the glue, by using an iron set on low, to re-liquefy the glue in this strip down the center of the panel and hammer this down. Work like this from the center out to the edges. You'll need to watch that you don't hammer while the glue is cold. The glue will make a crackling sound, and it is okay to hammer while you hear that, but the sound is telling you that the glue is starting gel. and you need to watch that you are not pushing glue ahead of the hammer, as this can burst through the veneer.

   The problem you will run into with large sheets, is the veneer will want to curl. This may require re-heating the glue, lifting the veneer and working the curl out. This curling can drive you nuts, but hide glue is so forgiving that with some patience it can be done quickly.

   You'll learn more in 10 minutes of actually hammering down some veneer than you could from reading anything, so I'd try a few small panels in an inexpensive veneer, to get an idea of how hammer veneering works.

   Rob Millard

   http://www.americanfederalperiod.com

   http://home.woh.rr.com/federalfurniture/

     

1. 
   g_hepplewhite | Dec 13, 2006 10:49pm | #4

   Thanks to all who replied. Rob I know that you have heard this before but you do outstanding work.  Please keep  posting your pieces in the gallery section they are inspiring.

   Thanks,

   Tom

2. 
   DonC | Dec 14, 2006 01:17am | #7

   Rob,

   Who should I buy hide glue from and is there a particular type of granular for veneer?

   I read your hammer tutorial at your site. It was great and very educational.

   I'm glad to know "toothing" a substrate is not really required.

   When you size the crotch veneer,wrap in plastic wrap, and clamp, I got a little confused. Could you elaborate on the veneer sizing process?

   Thanks,

   Don

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 14, 2006 04:32am | #9

   Don,

   I'm not surprised you are confused about the sizing process; it was rather clumsily worded on my part, sorry about that.

   I dilute hide glue with about twice the amount of water as usual. Brush this on both sides of the veneer, and place it between sheets of plastic wrap. Clamp the veneer between boards for a week. During that week, I take the veneer out of the clamps and unwrap it a couple of times each day. You have to keep an eye on while out of the clamps, so that it doesn't go back to being wrinkled. The idea is to let the veneer dry out a bit, before using it. At first you can only let the veneer out for a short time, before it will want to return to being uneven, but after a few days it can stay out longer. The veneer doesn't need to be bone dry before use, I just like to have the majority of the moisture out of it before veneering. I don't know what the long term effects are of this sizing, but I did one piece without it, and it showed fine crazing before it was even delivered; other pieces that were sized have shown no crazing. Over time, I'd be willing to bet that even the sized veneer will crack, as it does on antique furniture.

   I get my hide glue from Constantine's or Olde Mill Cabinet Shoppe. I have only used the ground hide glue, which has a gram strength of 251. The pearl glue is a lower strength glue that some people recommend for veneering, but I have never tried it.

   I'm glad you liked the description of the veneering process, and if I failed to make anything clear, don't hesitate to ask questions; I'll do my best to clear it up.

   Rob Millard

    

1. 
   DonC | Dec 15, 2006 07:03am | #19

   Thanks for the reply Rob. I understand now and am no longer confused.

   I have an additional question about veneer hammers. I have read "somewhere" that a guy used a white plastic called High Molecular yadda yadda. (HM??) I think you probably know what I'm referring to. It's a slippery white product. I read that it is good for hammer veneering because the glue does not stick to it. While I'm sure this is an advantage...BUT a regular cast veneer hammer can be heated when desired. Your method of application suggests that heat is what the iron  provides and a heated hammer is not required. Also, some hammers I see have a stip of polished brass strip inlet into a wood handle.

   What is your preference?

   By the way, do you put the glue in a baby food type bottle for heating and use instead of the glue pot?

   Thanks for the hide glue education.

   Don

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 15, 2006 03:31pm | #20

   Don,

   I made my veneer hammer with a UHMW Plastic blade, so I guess I'm the one you read about. I use to have a blade of stainless steel. Brass would be a good choice. I like the plastic, because it slides so easily, which is important since I don't apply glue to the face of the veneer. Applying glue to the face of the veneer is the traditional way to hammer veneer, but it is a mess, and I think this is why many people who try hammer veneering give up.

   I've never tried an iron hammer, but I've heard about heating it,  so what I'm about to say is just conjecture; a heated hammer would seem to me to make the process more difficult, because hammer veneering only works if the glue cools while being "hammered" down. A heated hammer would keep the glue liquid, and it would end up like chasing your tail. I could be all wrong about this, since as I've said I've never tried it.

   I use an electric glue pot. I mix and heat the glue in soup cans, this way I can quickly change between different mixtures of glue, and it makes clean up easy.

   Rob Millard

2. 
   DonC | Dec 19, 2006 02:18am | #22

   Hi Rob,

   I'm going to buy some UHMW and make a veneer hammer with it. How thick should the UHMW be?

   Thanks in advance,

   Don

3. 
   RMillard | Dec 19, 2006 03:15am | #23

   Don,

   The piece I used was about an 1/8 inch thick.

   Rob Millard

    

3. 
   Patto | Dec 14, 2006 01:52am | #8

   Rob,

   Hoping you would chime in somewhere soon with a veneer topic.

   I have to make a case for a wooden flute my daughter has acquired. The most durable thing I can think of for a tube is poly, but pretty yuk to look at. Is it practical to veneer a piece of 2" poly tube?

   Dave

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 14, 2006 05:08am | #10

   Dave,

   I'm afraid I have no idea how to veneer a poly tube. The biggest obstacle is the compatibility of the glue with both the veneer and the poly.

   My one idea is a coopered tube, made from thin strips of solid wood. You could veneer over this using a method described by Patrick Edwards in FWW; it uses his Old Brown Glue, and an elastic band as a clamp. I did it on a light house clock with excellent results.

   Rob Millard 

1. 
   Patto | Dec 14, 2006 07:31am | #11

   Rob,

   Rats, my alternative would be a carved out solid piece, stuck together then turned and venered. Too much work.

   Thanks anyway

   Dave

1. 
   sapwood | Dec 14, 2006 09:47pm | #14

   Research the tube idea on the forum at http://www.vacupress.com. The question has been asked and answered there before. Sorry, I don't remember any particulars.

2. 
   Patto | Dec 15, 2006 12:18am | #16

   Thanks for the link

2. 
   ETG | Dec 14, 2006 06:35pm | #12

   Rob

   I'm making a dining room table leaf - approx 30" long x 40" wide - I'm finding it is increasingly difficult to find true mahogony veneer 40" long.  The local Woodcraft store has 24" pieces but that won't do.

   However, everyone seems to have the paper backed veneer up to 8 ft long - have you ever used this product?  I know it is very thin and you can only lightly sand it - but how is it to work with?

   Also, approx 1.5 inches in from each edge is a quarter inch wide veneer band running the length, that is about 30 inches.  It is white, almost like poplar in color.  Any thoughts on the type of veneer to use for it?

   Thanks and I really do enjoy your comments and instructions for hammer veneering!

   Ed

   Edited 12/14/2006 10:41 am ET by ETG

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 14, 2006 09:47pm | #13

   Ed,

   I have never used paper backed veneers, so I can't say how they are to work with.

   I'm sure you could get the mahogany veneer you need from Certainly Wood ( http://certainlywood.com ) They have veneer in lengths of 10 feet or more, in stock. Their service and prices are excellent. Ebay is also a good source for veneer; I get a lot of my veneer there.

   The first wood that came to mind for your inlay is Holly.

   I'm glad you like the information on hammer veneering.

   Rob Millard

2. 
   ETG | Dec 14, 2006 10:01pm | #15

   Rob

   Thanks for the reply - I found some veneer at Constantines - don't need a lot and the price is OK.  My first exposure to Constantine was over 30 years ago when you could get a sample box of 50 - 4" x 8" sample of all kinds of wood - I've used that sample box many time to show folks the many different woods available.

   Again, thanks for you help.

   Ed

2. 
   dgreen | Dec 15, 2006 03:36am | #17

   There was an article in FWW some years back about a guy making columns using veneered PVC pipe. If I remember correctly he was using epoxy.------------------------------------

    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)

3. 
   pbrenner | Dec 15, 2006 04:20am | #18

   Re: Veneering PVC pipe...

   http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Veneered_columns_with_PVC_substrates.html

    

2. 
   sapwood | Dec 13, 2006 08:41pm | #2

   Just a few days ago I used the hammer process for my first time. My area was small but was so unusual that vac pressing simply wasn't going to work. So I mixed up some hide glue and heated it in an old croc-pot. Getting the glue to the proper consistency was the most difficult job. I experimented up and down the range, finally arriving at a usuable place. Rob Millard's written tutorial is a most excellent guide. I didn't pre-glue the substrate the day before and got the job done. However, after doing the veneer I can understand the advantage of the sizing. As Rob said in his response, the first go will be a wild ride on the learning curve. It was for me. I would recommend that you practice with some scrap veneer before going to bat.

   Now, a question for Rob....... Do you tape sucessive pieces of veneer together to form one big sheet or do you simply work with one then its neighbor? And if you work with one at a time, how do you deal with the glue squeeze out? On my small job I did one piece at a time and simply scraped away the goobered out glue, but my lengths were only 5" long and 4" wide. On larger pieces, that may be a burdensome task.

1. 
   Omah | Dec 13, 2006 09:16pm | #3

   I'm also new to the world of veneering and could benifit from ron's written tutorial, where could I find one?

1. 
   sapwood | Dec 13, 2006 11:15pm | #5

   Rob has posted it numerous times here. I found it the other day by doing a search and limiting it to posts by him. I'm betting that he will check back into this discussion and re-post for you. If I had the link at my fingertips, I'd do it.

2. 
   mbholden | Dec 14, 2006 12:21am | #6

   Sapwood,

   go up a couple messages and at the end of Rob's reply are two links, the second takes you to a traveling writing box, one of the pages on its construction is a good tutorial on hammer veneering.

   Going to both sites and drooling over the work *and* the instructions make this a couple sites to bookmark.

   Rob,

   Thanks once again for sharing your expertise with us. You are an inspiration.

   Mike

2. 
   RMillard | Dec 15, 2006 03:42pm | #21

   I work with one sheet at a time. I'm not sure taping the sheets together would work, because the moisture required during hammer veneering, would most likely remove the tape. I keep a damp rag handy to wipe any excess glue from the surface.

   Rob Millard