Replies

1. 
   RickL | Mar 19, 2009 03:17pm | #1

   http://grizzly.com/products/12-Parallelogram-Jointer-w-4-Knife-Cutterhead/G0609

   http://grizzly.com/outlet/10-Spiral-Cutterhead-Jointer/G0480

   The price may be the same but you are talking about two entirely different machines. The parallelgram is a more expensive machine to produce so you are over over simplifying the two machines. The better is the 12" parallelgram and insert cutterhead but not a deal breaker either. For an average woodworker a dovetailed jointer and standard knife cutterhead is fine. You can do figured wood with no problem with "sharp knives" so don't let think that anything less than an insert cutterhead is worthless.

   One is also a parallelogram unit which is better supported and can be adjusted over time if need be. Look at the smaller table support base and the table table length on the 10". Indexed cutter heads are great for doing a lot of figured wood and for folks who don't like or struggle with knife changing. Many folks would rather work on wood and not machines so that's a deciding factor. You have four edges on the indexed cutters so you might go 16 years on a set of knives. 

    Figure out the cost of insert knives versus standard knives and the cost of sharpening. Most folks don't sharpen regular knives often enough.  Insert knives are carbide versus High speed steel on straight knives. Commercial shops might change/sharpen regular knives several times a week or evry few months.

    As many folks struggle enough with changing three knives, four knives would be more work and time. Three knives isn't inferior to four knives either. 

   You can probably  get away without rotating the inserts for 4 years. I know of one such person and their insert cutterhead. I can change a 20" 4 knife head jointer in 20 minutes within .0005" so it's not an issue in my book.

   I've been tunong and repairing machines for 25 years and have worked on every style jointer there is.

   
   

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   Edited 3/19/2009 8:22 am ET by RickL

1. 
   DWoodardJr | Mar 19, 2009 06:50pm | #2

   Rick,

   Thanks for the response.  I knew that the parallelogram would make a difference. 

   I am fairly new to woodworking and appreciate the information.

   Doug

2. 
   edsea | Mar 20, 2009 07:31am | #10

   Actually I have been involved in this same decision.  One thing I learned (which is different than your post) is that everything else being equal the dovetail way jointer is actually more expensive to manufacture than a parallelogram jointer -- on a dovetail way machine the tables have to be ground flat as a unit (infeed, outfeed, way-base) on a parallelogram machine the tables each have to be ground flat and then can be adjusted to be aligned to each other -- either table is field replacable on a parallelogram jointer, on a dovetail ways jointer the tables are not replacable and if something happened to one (something heavy off your top shelf fell on it and badly damaged it??) the jointer would have to be replaced ---- so either type is probably OK, but with the manufacturing process edge the parallelogram will slowly take over from the dovetail ways I would assume.   Ed

1. 
   RickL | Mar 20, 2009 01:28pm | #11

   Disagree on the expense of the parallelogram jointer cost. Compare the cost of the Delta dovetailed ways jointer versus the parallelogram jointers in the 6" and 8" category.  Much cheaper  and simpler to produce a dovetailed ways jointer. They stopped making a dovetailed ways machine years ago and just made the DJ-15 and 20 parallelogram series.  Plenty of time in production and they came out with the dovetailed ways series again to have a less expensive jointer to offer to customers.

    

   There's actually more work to a parallelogram jointer. More parts to make and have you ever taken one apart compared to a dovetailed jointer and put it back together??????? A dovetailed jointer is a lot simpler but it doesn't have the advantage of adjustability. You probably read one of my posts on the parallelogram jointers. I worked for a dealer servicing machines and have worked on every style jointer there is. Replacing a table on a parallelogram jointer is the most time consuming of all jointers. Dovetailed jointers can be shimmed for simple drooping tables and for a few thousandths of twist. Serious warps require the whole jointer to be regrounf of which I have had to to a dozen dovetailed jointers over the last 25 years. My favorite jointer type is the old inclined stule of the old Oliver, Crescent and a few others. Has the advantages of a parallogram for adjustment and table machining and the ease of of being taken apart like a dovetailed ways machine.

   25 years of machine repair in factories and as a service tech for a dealer. Worked on Delta, SCMI, Minimax, Oliver, Crescent, Griggio, Paolini, Robland, Wadkin and many more.

   Edited 3/20/2009 7:21 am ET by RickL

   Edited 3/20/2009 8:43 am ET by RickL

   Edited 3/20/2009 10:33 am ET by RickL

1. 
   edsea | Mar 20, 2009 06:57pm | #12

   Well Rick I don't question your experience or jointer knowledge --- I have none. However I have talked to lots of manufacturers recently including some that make both (e.g. Grizzly) and possibly we may both be right to some degree. I think to use different terminology: the parallelogram jointers are more complex, more parts etc. but the parts are basically all interchangable due to the adjustments and can be made and machined for flatness etc. independently and prior to assembly into a jointer (all of this is favorable and less costly overall to the manufacturing process). However while the dovetail ways machine is simpler in design and has less parts, it requires several parts being assembled (into at least a partial jointer) prior to the  final machining/grinding of the tables -- this kind of process is not ideal to the manufacturing cost and use of vendors etc.  So I think everything considered and manufacturing being in a country where parts and labor are very cheap -- the need to go back and machine the assembled table is a costly step. However I completely agree that the final product looks simple in the dovetail case and complex in the parallelogram case. I wish I had your experience I still don't know what to buy and I don't want to go through the reconditioning and use of three phase power to get one of those old designs that we both like a lot.   Ed

1. 
   RickL | Mar 20, 2009 07:57pm | #13

    "However while the dovetail ways machine is simpler in design and has less parts, it requires several parts being assembled (into at least a partial jointer) prior to the  final machining/grinding of the tables -- this kind of process is not ideal to the manufacturing cost and use of vendors etc.  So I think everything considered and manufacturing being in a country where parts and labor are very cheap -- the need to go back and machine the assembled table is a costly step."

   The grinding is an included step so it wouldn't be an "extra step" so dovetailed ways jointers are cheaper to make. Dovetailed ways jointers are just as interchangable except it take the grinding to insure the tables are machine properly and within acceptable tolerance. Parallelogram jointers can have tables swapped in the field and readjusted. 

    "this kind of process is not ideal to the manufacturing cost and use of vendors etc."

   You don't fully comprehend the manufacturing process to make such a statement. 

   "I have talked to lots of manufacturers" 

   You talked to salemen, custmer service or at best a tech.  You will only get their trained response on "their product".  

   Proof of the cost again is if you compare the costs of the Delta parallelogram and dovetailed ways jointers. If it were truly cheaper to make the parallelgram jointer they would not bother to make the dovetailed ways jointer. You wil not find a manufacturer of both type of jointers offering a paralleogram jointer for less...

2. 
   bones | Mar 19, 2009 08:32pm | #3

   I had the same delimia.  Either go with the narower width capcity or go with HSS knives.  I opted for the biggest jointer I could get(g609).  Don't regret it at all. And in the future I want to go to the shelix head I'll change it.  It's a dream to use!

   http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=38959.1

   Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:
   If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
   And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
   

   
   

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   Edited 3/19/2009 1:33 pm by bones

1. 
   DWoodardJr | Mar 19, 2009 08:47pm | #4

   Yeah, after mulling it over I "bit the bullett" and ordered the G609X this morning.  I'm telling my wife I did it in an "ambien induced stupor".

   I checked out your unloading pictures, good idea on the hoist.  My workshop is set up in the back of my office, so I actually am lucky enough to have a forklift, but the hoist could be useful to get it off the pallet.

   Doug

1. 
   bones | Mar 19, 2009 08:57pm | #5

   Since those pics were taken, I moved from Saint Louis to Pottstown, PA.  The movers did not set it where I needed it, so I used my motorcycle jack to lift the front edge and got an applicance dolly under it.  Moved the jack to the other end and did the same and managed to move it without a hoist.  Good thing is once you get it where you want it, you don't want to rearrange at all!  Have fun and enjoy. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

1. 
   DWoodardJr | Mar 19, 2009 09:14pm | #6

   Of course, doesn't it figure.  I finally make a decision and order one, what happens.  I just received an E-mail that they are backordered until May 26.

   arrrgh

1. 
   bones | Mar 19, 2009 10:20pm | #7

   "Backordered"???????????

   I thought the economy was in the crapper and the depression was in full swing?  I figured they would be tons available.  Real bummer!  Do you wait or go for the 10?Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

2. 
   DWoodardJr | Mar 19, 2009 10:35pm | #8

   Who would have thought...

   The 10" machines arent as nice as the 8" or 12", it's almost like they were thrown in as an afterthought.  I sent an E-mail asking if the non-spiral heads were backordered as well, but haven't heard back yet.

   If they are availiable, I'll get one of those and upgrade the head to a Byrd.

   Doug

3. 
   DWoodardJr | Mar 19, 2009 10:49pm | #9

   Or, I might awitch gears altogether and look at the Laguna 12"