I’ve been making some pencil boxes (i.e. the ones that stand on your desk and hold pencils/pens – not a box that closes) and other small projects. None of these items requires strength in the joints (assuming nobody drops them!).
I find gluing with PVA and clamping these projects painful and time consuming. Trying to clamp a small project is difficult at best. I’ve tried elastic bands and various other approaches, but its still not easy to keep things lined up.
What are the disadvantages to just using superglue? It seems so easy – line up the sides against a simple 90 degree jig, push together, hold a few seconds and the superglue should be set. Obviously the parts must be cut/planed dead straight, but if that’s done right, this approach seems so simple and quick.
Why not use superglue? Also, anybody know how long a super glue’d butt joint would last vs PVA?
Thanks
Mervyn
Replies
Cyanoacrylate glues have very little sheer strength. It would probably work for pencil boxes, though.
If it were me, I'd try to think up a simple joint that would be self jigging and easyt o use with PVA - somehting like a rabbet or box joint.
I noticed Gorilla Glue has a new instant. Any experience, info?
See the attached link, looks like just what you're after.
It's a 2 part high strength "instant" (10 second clamping time) glue. I've talked to some finish carpenters who've used it for crown molding, etc. -- they love it. I haven't seen it offered in big box stores, but contractor supply places may carry it.
http://www.fastcap.com/products.aspx?id=230
Peter
I made some 200 decorative gift boxes for my youngest daughters wedding last year and used a lock miter joint. I bought two bits and ran one vert and one horizontally and used a sled to prevent tear out. You could get by with one bit but the sled caused me to use two bits. I was able to glue them with titebond, square them in a vice and them used rubber bands to hold until the glue dried. If I do it again, I will build them as one long box like a porch column and them cut them on the chop saw to the proper height. As for your quiestion on the CS glues, I run commercial millwork and we use CS glue all the time to attach self returns on stool and returns on crown and don't use the pin nailer very often. I don't know how well that type of glue holds up over time, but it is great for trim work. I would stay with carpenters glue as I have things I glued 30 years ago that are still together. Good luck with your project.
Don
I've tried elastic bands and various other approaches...
Have you tried tape? I've used it a few times and have had no trouble keeping thing aligned.
Thanks to everyone who posted. The tape is a good idea. I'd used it on mitered boxes before with success, but forgot to will try that approach with a butt joint.
I think that I'll run a few tests with CA glue too - that's no doubt the best way to figure out if it suits my needs. From what I've read the joint should last a long time if its not subject to any stress.
FWIW, here's a little box I made over the past weekend. I decided I couldn't stand my 66 accoutrements knocking about anymore.
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I probably wouldn't do it this way if I had to make a bunch. This is probably about 90 minutes work total (including the time to sharpen the 1/8th blade on my plough).
Looks great!That would have taken me much longer! I really struggle to get my work complete without taking far too many steps, but that's probably mostly a matter of experience.Here's the 4 sides of the box that I'm working on - its a present for my brother and sister in law. The purple heart strips will form the 4 corners. 2 Sides have got boiled linseed oil and shellac. The other 2 sides still need to be finished.
I think your box looks like it will be beautiful.
As for speed, when you make something for the shop, it's kind of liberating in that respect. If I were making a similar box for a gift or something, I know I would have taken twice as long and been much more painstaking at each step.
Be sure to post about your results with the superglue, and more importantly, post a pic of the finished box!
I've made a few small boxes like Samson's, and I was going to suggest that you might consider some small joinery. It takes time at the begining, but once you've done a few, dovetails are pretty quick to cut in thin stock and they make a really nice small box. I think they're a great exercise that improves your joinery in larger projects. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Samson,A pleasing box to look at. For lack of better term it has the beauty and simplicity of Zen in the ebony (?) pull etc.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 2/10/2009 2:22 pm by roc
It's definitely simple, but I don't know about beautiful - maybe in a sort of wabi-sabi way?
Yeah, I can never through away pieces of ebony larger than a shaving. Hence I have a little container with bits for pins, inlay and uses like this. Putter putter ... the comfort food of woodworking.
On small projects glued with PVA, tape or rubberbands may be used to keep the joint tight and the project placed in a microwave oven for a few seconds to accelerate curing of the glue. In my oven, it takes less than 20 seconds on high and the tape or bands can be removed in about 1 minute. The wood is warm to the touch (about as warm as it would be if it were in the summer sun for a while).
Thanks for the suggestion. I would have thought heat would have made the glue thinner so taken longer to cure. (I can see that the opposite may not be true either - colder could easily slow the curing . . . . . .)
Hi Mervyn, I built a small octagonal cabinet last month that had eleven tiers of drawers in it, or 88 of them. I used a finger or box joint, then CA glue. It did really well on my test joints, so I feel good about it. When I glued one corner together, it broke the fingers off, rather than glue failing. What made it nice, was that I assembled the fingers dry, then applied the glue to the joints from the outside. Then shot it with a quick squirt of accelerator, while it was in the jig. It went really fast, and was clean. At least there wasn't much to sand off from the outside, and nothing on the inside. Once you get set up for finger joint cutting, it goes pretty fast.
Thanks for the confirmation on the superglue.My setup is far from ideal. Finger joints would be a good alternative, but my table saw is in the garage and since we live in Chicago, between the weather and work, I can only get to the saw on the weekend - and then only when its warmer. So I must make do with limited availability of powertools. I plan on buying a dado blade shortly and making a jig for finger joints. Good Spring project!Mervyn
Edited 2/9/2009 11:32 pm ET by Mervyn
Mervyn, just to give you another confirm, I built free flight, control line, and radio control model aircraft for over 40 years using CA. Just find a hobby shop or check out a magazine for the many makers and types from thinner than water to gap filling to gel. CA is great when used properly-read the mfg instructions on line. It will be much, much cheaper than the wood working brands and NEVER buy in large quantity as it's more age sensitive than shellac. Nice box, Paddy
Mervyn,
Have you looked at hot hide glue? Be careful with that super glue - I recently glued a part together and inadvertently glued it to the table. Oops.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris, Samson likes his dovetails on boxes orientated the same way I do... <!----><!----><!---->
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Does it really matter on a box? It's not like a drawer or hanging cabinet where the main directional stress is a given. A box can be tressed in either direction.
Well that was my thought as well, and I build mine so the tails show to the front. Chris likes them better with the pins on the front and tails on the side....
In your quick box, it looks like the tails and pins are different for each side, like you just cut them close for shop use. It is amazing for 90 minutes of work!
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Edited 2/10/2009 1:55 pm by AZMO
Nothing much amazing about that quick and dirty little storage box. I cut the tails on both ends with the stock matched (gang cut, so to speak). Removing waste is super quick with stock that's 3/16ths thick. I then just took the pin markings in the usual way. Sawing is super quick with stock this thin too - often one pull of my Japanese saw (hardest part is making sure you stop at the line). Any clean up or tweaking I did with my Oar carving knife.
By the way ... it sort of depends upon which side you consider the front, eh? You rbox obviously has a "front." I'm not so sure mine does ... (things that make you go hmmmm ;-))
Edited 2/10/2009 2:20 pm ET by Samson
The 2P-10 adhesive that Peter mentioned is terrific for high strength, quick bond projects. I've used it for many things. You'll love it. It's very stable and doesn't set until you join the pieces... but once the faces are joined, it sets in 10 seconds and cures in 30 seconds. It comes in several thicknesses: thin, medium, thick and gel. It won't replace your PVA glue for most things, but for projects where you need quick setup, it's great stuff.
Watch the video here: http://www.fastcap.com/videos.aspx?id=4104
I'm in the finishing stages of my first large project with a lot of small pieces, and have found Liquid Nails very, very helpful. On some pieces it is the only fastener, and on others it is a third hand while I drill for dowels. Why LN over super crazy glue? Workability; more product for the money; easy to clean off surfaces or fingers with mineral spirits. A lot of it is familiarity, I guess. I got comfortable with LN doing stair work, but the few times I've reapaired toys or whatnot at home with super glue it has seemed like a stressful situation.
Brian
Thanks. The price of superglue is a concern, particularly since I believe it has an extremely short shelf life once opened. How long does it take for Liquid Nails to set?
mervyn, upon thinking about your project - and thanks to the picture - I realize you are not making traditional butt joints where end grain is meeting long grain. Instead you are making long grain to long grain joints similar to those used in panel glue-up, but achieving a right angle in your use. These are very strong joints, and easily achieved with PVA. What is your need for speed? If you have the time, take on each glue line one at a time - then the clamping becomes essentially just as simple as a panel glue-up. For example, glue two purple heart strips to each side of a box side piece (all in the same plane). Next, glue the next side to that assembly with another purple heart piece at the end, and so on. controlling those joints should be relatively easy.
Thanks for the thoughts. I'll probably be getting of the message board for the rest of the day - busy day ahead.
I guess it mostly comes down to a lack of the right jigs and suitable workspace. I've been woodworking for about 18 months now, and have become much more proficient in many areas, but each time I come to glue-up, it seems to take ages to find the right approach: get everything square, get the clamps setup right (this always seems a struggle, and I have a selection of about 10 clamps). No doubt this is my inability to find a simple solution . . . . . What should be 10 minutes or so seems to take hours. Obviously a dovetailed or mechanical joint would make this a lot easier, but for a box like this I'm looking for something very simple. I've read some of the Taunton articles, but they don't usually address such small boxes.
I purposefully oriented the wood so as to avoid end grain gluing, so at least I got that right :)
Two of these or their jet equivalent would suffice:
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I had a few parallel clamps that I purchased at the end of last year on special from Woodcraft. Had not used them yet, and never thought of using them on such a small box - but they worked great! A bit of tape to hold the box together, and 2 parallel clamps made this stress free and very easy. Thanks for the tip!One other question since this seems to waste a lot of my time. I try to put on the finish before glue up, since it seems easier to finish the flat pieces rather than the box. Yet each time some glue marks or not quite flush joints require that I refinish the whole thing anyway. Do you try finish first, or just wait till the whole thing is put together?
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