Replies

1. 
   Rob_Millard | Dec 20, 2001 12:09am | #1

   *
   My first though would be, why not use 12/4 stock to avoid a glue up. I wouldn’t use Tite Bond II for your leg glue up ( or anything else for that matter in my experience, it has a very poor track record) I use hide glue both the liquid and hot for 99.9% of my work, with the other 1/10% being plain old white glue. It is stronger than the wood itself, dries to a fairly hard glue line, and it has a much longer shelf life than yellow glue.
   I think the same spread rate you use for edge glue ups would be appropriate here also. I tend to spread my glue on the thin side, as it takes very little glue to make a good joint, and the excess is slick, causing the parts to slide around.

1. 
   Kim_Carleton_Graves | Dec 20, 2001 07:36am | #2

   *Hi Matthew,I agree that if you can get stock that is already to size, it’s almost always worth it in terms of your time and how the finished product looks. However sometimes you have to glue up – as a professional turner I end up gluing up a lot of leg blanks for one reason or another.Cut all the boards oversize and face joint them. Don’t be shy with the glue. Any squeeze out you’re just going to joint and plain off as you size the blanks to final dimension – I don’t even bother to wipe off the excess. I use any PVA I happen to have at hand, white/yellow/type II, it’s all good. I have glue bottles all over the shop and I just grab whatever one is closest. PVA is cheap and grabs fast. And don't bother to let the glue cure - just clamp those puppies up. If you’re using thin boards you’ll need more clamps than if you use thick ones – don’t skimp on the clamps. Once the glue is dry use a paint scraper to scape off the excess glue. Then joint and plane the blanks to final size. Use the same board for all the layers in the blank so even though the grain won’t match the color will.Hope this helps.Best, Kim Carleton GravesCarleton Woodworking

1. 
   Matthew_Schenker | Dec 20, 2001 05:28pm | #3

   *Thanks very much for the input. I respect both Rob's and Kim's opinions on woodworking matters. However, it is a little unsettling that you two disagree on the use of Tite Bond II. Kim, even though you support the use of Tite Bond yellow glue, would you agree that hide glue is better? Or would you say it doesn't matter for long-term strength?On the subject of hide glue, have either of you used the Tite Bond liquid hide glue? They claim it is as strong as the stuff you mix and heat yourelf. Any opinions?On the subject of thick wood, the problem is I cannot seem to get my hands on 12/4 maple. I've looked and looked, and very rarely do I see anything better than 8/4. Also, the one place I found that sold 12/4 wanted outrageous prices.Thanks again.

1. 
   davamoore_ | Dec 20, 2001 06:34pm | #4

   *Kim and Rob --When face-gluing boards to make blanks, is it also worthwhile to alternate the direction of the grain in the boards in order to create a more stable leg? I'm not thinking of making the grain perpendicular, as in plywood; rather, if you were to stand the future leg on end and were looking at the end-grain of the three pieces, you'd have one board where the growth rings curve/bend to the left, on the next board the rings curve toward the right, etc. (Forgive my inability to paint a comprehensible word-picture.)Of course, I don't think this would matter if you're using quartersawn boards.I'd be interested in your thoughts, since I've used this method to face-glue leg blanks from rift-sawn boards (and don't want to waste time in the future on overkill, if it's not necessary).David

1. 
   Howard_Acheson | Dec 20, 2001 07:06pm | #5

   *I agree with Kim about PVA glues. In a shop I was involved with, we did quite a bit of testing of adhesives. PVA's (white and yellow) were virtually equal to any others we used with one exception. The PVA's were subject to creep and we had a number of call backs for panels that had raised glue lines. We stopped using the PVA's for panels and substituted casein or urea plastic resin.New heard of significant problems with PVA's at all.

2. 
   Rob_Millard | Dec 21, 2001 03:42am | #6

   *Thanks for respecting my opinion, now if my girlfriend would do the same. My experience with the Tite Bond II was not very good. I don’t think it was old, or had been frozen, but then I don’t know. It dried very soft, and was subject to even more creep than white and yellow glues. So based on that, I can’t recommend it. When I make furniture, which as you know, are period reproductions, I won’t use anything but hide glue. `I do this because I expect these to last as long as the originals and the originals lasted this long because among other things, they used hide glue. Hide glue will eventually break down, probably not in my lifetime, but eventually. When it does a repair will involve nothing more than fresh hide glue and a clamp. PVA glues seal the pores and make further gluing less dependable. On the liquid hide glue, I use this all the time (got it under my fingernails right now). It is strong, but the glue must be fresh, and it takes several days to reach full strength. At first it remains gummy, but it eventually dries hard. If I were making something that I did not expect to last “forever”, than I would not hesitate to use white or yellow glue. Of course I wouldn’t use it where creep would be a problem (bent lamination, etc.) Try Groff & Groff lumber (see any issue of FWW), they have great service and good prices. I order from them all the time.

3. 
   Howard_Acheson | Dec 21, 2001 06:26pm | #7

   *Rob, I'n a firm believer is working with what works for you. Using the same products leads to knowing how to get the results you want. Adhesives and finishes are particular areas where experience leads to better results. I don't advocate jumping around just to try something new unless you just want to experiment.

4. 
   Kim_Carleton_Graves | Dec 21, 2001 07:13pm | #8

   *Hi Matthew,I’m going to avoid the controversy about hide glue….;-) other than to say either are fine for your application.As a professional woodworker, I’ve really tried to simplify my procedures. Basically, I try to do all my glueups with either PVA or urea resin. Occasionally I use other glues, but only very occasionally. By limiting my glue inventory I get to know the glues I’m using and am guaranteed that they are fresh. In term Type II is actually an ANSI standard meaning water resistant rather than being specific to “Type II PVA.” Both type II and standard PVA cure by releasing water but the Type II has an added catalyst that causes an additional chemical reaction making it more water resistant. But all PVA’s are essentially identical. They only differ in the amount of solids they have – the more the better. I actually use a Type II PVA almost exclusively. I get it from my lumber dealer. It’s a commercial product and so has more solids in it than the standard home products.If you’re having trouble with PVA it’s probably because the glue and the workpieces aren’t warm enough. In the winter I nuke the glue for 10 seconds in the microwave to warm in up and then put the glue up under an electric blanket set to high. The glue likes to be warm when it cures.Hope this helps. Best,Kim Carleton GravesCarleton Woodworking

5. 
   Matthew_Schenker | Dec 21, 2001 07:41pm | #9

   *Kim,Your tipe and advice are definitely helpful. Your last tip about warming PVA glue is especially good. I would never have been bold enough on my own to microwave my glue!I am going to experiment with liquid hide glue (Tite Bond), and I just bought some of Lee Valley's 2002GF PVA glue. Will let you know the results later.Thanks again for your terrific input.

6. 
   scott_murray | Dec 23, 2001 01:43pm | #10

   *Matthew,I just got finished doing what you are about to do. I laminated some legs up also, not because thick stock was not available, but because I wanted a dark stripe as the diagonal of the leg. It was a bit more work. But one tip I can give you is to use a couple of toothpicks or small dowels -as pins- inserted inside the layers as location markers to keep the layers from squirming all over the place when you glue up. They help keep the faces of the various layers in close(r) plane, which later on helps when it comes to squaring up the legs.Scott

7. 
   Matthew_Schenker | Dec 23, 2001 04:27pm | #11

   *I went ahead with this operation, glueing up three 1x4 maple pieces, which were then cut down to 2.25" square legs. I made each leg from the same sheet for consistent coloring and grain.First I sanded each face down to remove plane marks, and cleaned off all the dust.For easier glue-up, I took covered several 2x4 pieces with duct tape to use as stands, raising the legs off my work table for easier clamping and making it so the legs don't get stuck on the work surface. Underneath, I placed a couple of layers of paper towel to catch the glue squeeze-out. To stop the piecs from slipping, I cut several 4"-wide scrap pieces, covered them in duct tape, and clamped them to the edges of the legs in three places. Then I face-clamped the leg assemblies tightly, with one clamp on each side at 3" intervals. The pieces did not shift at all. Pretty much covered the entire surface with clamps! I used small Quick-Grips (I had 50 of these things, and for this project I went out and bought 20 more -- you can never own enough). I understand that some people feel C-clamps are better.Since this is my first time doing this, I made one extra leg out of poplar, with the same dimensions as the maple, as a tester for each step of this process.After two days, I removed the clamps, then cut away the waste with my band saw, sanded them down, and now I have beautiful table legs. No spaces between the pieces and almost indestinguishable glue lines.The table top was already done before I started with the legs (finished with Tried and True Varnish Oil). I plan on having this ready to deliver to my customer in a few days (by New Years).One highlight: For this project, I used Viking band-saw blades (1/2" 3 TPI) and got perfectly accurate, straight cuts that required minimal sanding afterwards.

8. 
   Rob_Millard | Dec 23, 2001 09:21pm | #12

   *You can use a pinch of sand thrown in the glue joint to keep things from sliding around as the clamps are applied. I do this, but I’m careful to place the sand where I won’t cut or plane into it.

9. 
   Norm_in_Fujino | Dec 30, 2001 06:07pm | #13

   *>>Of course, I don't think this would matter if you're using quartersawn boards. [Amateur Hobbiest Advice ON]If you're using q'sawn boards (assuming oak), why not use quadrilinear posts? You get the best face on all four sides.Quadrilinear Leg GlueupQuadrilinear Leg Offcut[Amateur Hobbiest Advice OFF]Visit Virtual Fujino, Japan! Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

10. 
    Matthew_Schenker | Dec 30, 2001 06:24pm | #14

    *Thanks Norm for the pictures and advice! I've already completed this project, but I will definitely try the method you're suggesting next time. I plan on doing MANY other projects involving the same leg type.By the way, your glue-up picture bears striking resemblance to mine. Amazing, isn't it, how beautiful woodwork is when it's done when you consider how ugly it can be at glue-up. When my wife came downstairs and saw what the legs looked like at the glue-up stage, she looked horrified. I always tell her, "Never look at a woodworking project before it's done."

11. 
    Jack_Woody | Jan 01, 2002 12:12am | #15

    *Matthew,Quadrilinear Leg Off cut. Now that's a mouth full!FWW #121 Page 54 has an article about making legs to show face grain on all four sides using a lock-mitre router bit. In issue #124, some one wrote in to tell of using the same method but arrainging the set up to simplify glue up.This was an offshoot of what they called the Stickley method.Even though lock-mitre bits are a pain to set up, the glue up is much easier.Just my opinion,Jack.