I have two 6ft by 3ft bookcases to put together. My inspiration (aka wife) wants an open look without solid sides. I have finished a short prototype (3ft tall) and have cut all of the 96 pieces for two of the tall cases. They are poplar since my inspiration wants them white to match the cornices that I put over the windows/doors.
Based on my experience gluing all of the twelve loose tenon-joined pieces for just one side of the short case, I am concerned about the assembly time for the large case side (19 pieces) – glue assembly time. The Titebond III that I used on the short case sides touted a 20 min assembly time, but I doubt that in my location (Southern California – warm with low humidity) since I almost did not make it.
Does anyone have a recommendation for a glue with longer assembly time? Data on the Inet seems to say that 20 min is about the best I can find. I prefer not to use polyurethane because of the mineral spirits needed for wipe-up and I have no experience with hide glue. [Sorry for the restrictions!]
The design looks great, but maybe I have a case of nice design that can’t be put together. If necessary I can glue up one half of a side at a time, but I prefer to do the whole side at one time.
If Titebond III is my best bet, would some water dilution help open time at the expense of some strength? They will be interior only.
Thanks
Replies
Epoxy is a good match. I use the slow-set stuff when I need to eat lunch during a glue-up :0) I made a garden bench that had 50 M&T's for each stretcher. I had enough time to do two of them (100 M&T's). Unfortunately, you could easily spend $80 on the resin and the hardener.
Unibond (plastic resin glue) is another good choice and it is cheap. Buy the pre-mixed stuff for your first time. You should have at least 1/2 an hour.
That is interesting. Do you have the brand of epoxy that you used? I am use to a 2-part epoxy on other projects, just not woodwork.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17645&filter=west
Resin (105) Extra slow (209) and the mini pump set.
or
http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2005350/2005350.aspx
Why not use the original Titebond ?
Because Titebond advises 10-15 min for Titebond Original and 20-25min for Titebond III. But thanks for the response.
Could you do your glueup in stages - i.e making up subassemblies which are later glued together to make the assembly?
I'm in northern CA with the same weather, and usually can find ways to do my glueups in stages. This keeps my stress levels down and I can get by with less BP medicine. - lol
I have a similar situation with a round end table that has many parts to assemble at once. I went to the local Woodcraft store yesturday and presented the owner with the same question and after looking over several of their products we couldn't determine which product had the longest assembly time. The store owner decided to call the Franklin Company (maker of Titebond products) and we talked to the customer service dept. What we found is that the Hide Glue has the longest assembly time in their product line, but should only be used where moisture is not a problem. Interestingly, regular Titebond had the shortest assembly time (10-15 minutes) with type II & III having longer times (15-20 minutes.) The Hide Glue had an assembly time of up to 45 minutes. Caveat - these times are from memory (which, at my age, isn't the greatest) and are affected by temperature and humidity. I bought the Hide Glue and will try it today.
Not to worry, I also have sometimers memory but forget to be unhappy! The Franklin site says that Titebond III is 20-25 min Total Assy time; their Liquid Hide glue is 20-30 min Total Asst time.I do not know about dry hide glue.
Just finished gluing the table up with the hide glue. It took a little over 1/2 hour, but I was still able to clean up squeeze out with a damp rag, but just barely. It was a lot easier than the dry mix I used to use. I hope it's as strong. We'll see tomorrow when I take the clamps off.
Good luck on your project.
As long as the liquid hide glue hasn't aged too much you should be fine. Squeeze a drop or two on a finger and press against another finger. If it starts to tack up in a minute or so it should be fine. Liquid hide glue has a shelf life, and since not the most popular glue sometimes the bottle is on the shelf a long time. If it's not stringy and tacks up, should be more than strong enough.
Regarding epoxy for longer open time, after mixing well pour into a thin sheet. Epoxy creates heat as it cures, and the higher the temp the faster it cures.
Excellent! I had read that after mixing 2-part epoxy a container with 'a large surface area' extended open time. You answered why.I am leaning on revising my assembly to do 1/2 of a side at a time with Titebond III. All I am concerned about is squareness, but I can solve that.Hide glue and epoxy are definitely now on my to-do list.Thanks to All.
The cooler titebond is the slower it sets. Run some tests.
Great info! I looked at the container and didn't see a mfg. date so I marked the date of purchase on the bottle. Are there any guidlines on shelf life? I bought the only bottle the store had in stock and it's larger than I could possible need for a very long time.
In the past, the exp date was printed with dark blue or black ink on the dark brown bottle, so it was hard to find. Trying to remember, if the glue was stringy? lumpy? then I think it was bad. It should flow like white and yellow glue.
I've seen several recommendations over the past months for another version I think called "Old Brown Glue" that may have a longer shelf life.
I am with David on doing it in stages. However if you are looking at epoxy here is a small quantity that is excellent. I have had first hand experience with and can recommend.
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5041
Please note there is a larger quantity for not that much more $29 plus ship. Probably the one I posted first is enough.
Here is info at the manufacture's site.
http://www.systemthree.com/p_t_88.asp
I think the open time would be long enough but read about the other longer ones at system three to decide for your self. If you click " Technical Data Sheet" you get this
http://www.systemthree.com/members/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf
PS: You may want to make these dudes partially disassemblable for moving; tusk tenon or some such. Maybe not since they are not ~eight feet. Just a thought
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 8/4/2009 4:40 pm by roc
forrestb,
I'm with the two part epoxy group, especially when it comes to poplar.
In the last two months I built two captains chairs with about 25 spindles each, all poplar. The first one I used my usual Titebond III and did some sub-assembly. It seemed like the titebond grabed very quickly and I needed to pound and clamp as fast as I could to get it done. The second chair I opted for the two part epoxy and it was a breeze, I did not need to do any sub-assembly.
If I build more chairs in other wood (maple, oak, etc)I may try the titebond III again but when it comes to poplar it's a nightmare.
Plain old Elmer's Glue All will give you a decent open time and won't 'grab' quickly like Titebond Original or Titebond II. Titebond III has a decent open time too. Tom
Cecchi C-Systems 10 10 CFS epoxy stays liquid for 12 hrs with the "normal" catalyst.http://www.cecchi.it/italiano/htmeng/resiin.html (in English)However I don't know if it is sold outside of Europe. Prices are similar to West Systems.
Get info from horses mouth.......
http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=3
Sorry but I don't get the connection with Cecchi resin.
That makes two of us!
I had been there. It shows 10-15 min total assy time for their White Glue. Sounds like Elmer's white glue must be different if it has a long assy time.
it could be that Elmers White glue is a Poly Vinyl glue not an aliphatic resin
Always good to go to the horses mouth.......
http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=3
Second vote for Elmer's Glue All or Titebond white PVA. I use it in chair regluing when I need time to align everything without the quick grab of aliphatic PVA (yellow). Best of all, with back to school loss leader sales, you can buy fresh 4 oz bottles for 19-26 cents apiece.
Yep--it's amazing to think with all the specialty wood glues out there, that good ole Elmer's is the original. I learned that from Lonnie Bird in the classes I've taken with him. When he's got a complicated glue up--a dovetailed carcass for example, he does a dry fit, dry run, gets his clamps ready if needed, and then applies the glue, fits the joints and drives them home, and you have a low stress glue up. Yet when he wants to glue on a knee block on ####cabriole leg, he reaches for Titebond yellow glue, applies the glue, presses and holds the piece in place for a few minutes, lets go and leaves it alone to set up. Once the glue 'grabs', that's it. I was initially stunned to think that all the big dollar 18th century reproduction pieces he's built were put together in part with Elmer's glue--gotta love it! Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I'd use Old Brown Glue from Patrick Edwards. It'll give you a long open time and will allow you a later fix for anything that goes wrong. I'm pretty surprised it hasn't been mentioned here. We use it a lot in our shop.
http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/gluepage.htm
Do you have a picture or drawing you could post? I'm having a little problem visualizing what you want to do.
Rather than attacking this from the angle of the adhesive, there is almost always a way to schedule the glue-up where time pressures are reduced. For example, two or three dry-fits frequently make the final glue fit go faster. There are frequently ways to break the glue up into sub-assemblies and then glue up the sub-assemblies.
A picture or sketch would help.
At the time of your post I had no pix. I decided to glue-up each side in two parts using Titebond III (I had it in hand). The pix are of my 6 footers sides (two bookcases) with a pic of a completed 3 footer. The latter was too short for my wife.
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