Replies

1. 
   RMillard | Mar 08, 2004 06:36pm | #1

   I once made a card table for a customer who wanted that wet gloss look. I used my standard top finish which is Rock Hard Table Top Varnish, applying about 5 coats, sanding between each coat. Then after a weeks drying time I wet sand starting at 400 grit and going to 600 or 800. At this stage I look very carefully for any areas that look like trouble, such as depressions, bubbles, or the dreaded witness lines. If I don't find any of these, I let the finish dry for 2 more weeks. If I did find problems, then I have to recoat and wait a week again, and sand. After the two weeks, sand up to 1500 grit . Then I used a power buffer charged with the 3M rubbing compound followed by a fresh buffing wheel charged with the 3M swirl remover. This left a mirror like finish ( which was totally inappropriate for the period card table) You could also achieve the same result with pumice and rottenstone, but it would take much longer. Frank Polairo ( spelling?) wrote an excellent article on using this varnish for Fine Woodworking, and it appears in the finishing compilation book put out by Taunton. I doubt factory furniture is finished this way, they must use some kind of high tech spray equipment.

   I would guess that you could use polyurethane in place of the varnish for its faster cure time, or even lacquer but I think the varnish and poly have better scratch resistance.

   Rob Millard

2. 
   OneofmanyBobs | Mar 08, 2004 08:57pm | #2

   If its glass-clear high gloss, could be acrylic, polyester or a catalyzed lacquer.  They're not like the finishes illustrated in your books and not for amateur use.  Most anything you can do yourself is going to have an amber cast to it.  Waterbased urethanes are not so amber, but they're cloudy.  French polish with super-blonde would be nice, but fragile.  Still has a little color to it. Nitro lacquer is very clear, but not really tough enough for a table top. 

3. 
   JBD | Mar 08, 2004 09:04pm | #3

   I've chased the hi-gloss holy grail of Euro finishes, and only after becoming a finish chemist did I really understand the process.   Quick to the point - the gloss you saw at the store is likely about 20 mils of near 100% solids catylized polyester build coat "hosed" on, then heat cured, then sanded to 15 mils, then overcoated (sprayed) with a 2K urethane like Imron, then buffed.  Cheaper furniture will have less coating thickness, but same gloss.  Gloss retention is the big issue, acheived with the heat cure cycle of the polyester, a finish you and I will likely never be able to purchase even if you could find it.  (Ilva is the main importer as far as I know of PE finish systems, but Lilly might have a good one)

   First off, any clear film finish like said before with varnish, will achieve a high-gloss with buffing compounds.  The real difference has to do with the stability, or shrinkage of the polymer film, to prevent "print through" or what I call "grain/pore telegraphing".  This problem occurs very shortly after you labor for days on rubbing out a finish like glass, then in a few weeks the pores start to show and grain lines will create mini waves in your previous glass-smooth surface.  This is caused from the continued off-gassing of entrapped solvents, the continued crosslinking of the polymer chains, and the off-gassing of non-reacted monomers, let alone the slight movement of solid wood - which is why most use veneers.  

    This "stability" can be achieved in a small shop by applying high solids, two part base coats like boat epoxy to seal/fill the pores and create the film build thick enough to eliminate the print through.   Then you apply a two part topcoat.  Lacquer may work but sprayed, automotive two part urethane is far superior.   The epoxy is great because it shrinks less than polyester, but cannot be sprayed.  I roll my epoxy fill coats on with a hard rubber roller, then sand flat. 

   If you do not use epoxy, your stuck with very low film builds, and shrinkage.  If you use multiple coats of automotive urethane, you have to wait quite a while for the film to stabilize before you top coat (same is true with simple varnish/poly, but much less gloss when final buffing.  I used to apply seven - ten coats of post cat conversion varnish (40% solids as opposed to 20% in lacquer), but the shrinkage killed me.  Then I switched to 100% solids base filler coats.  Three coats and DONE, while also being superior gloss.  This made the mottled african Satinwood or quilted maple or mahogony jump out and grab you in the right lighting.   

    

   "The furniture designer is an architect." - Maurice DuFrenes (French Art Deco furniture designer, contemporary of Ruhlmann)

   http://www.pbase.com/dr_dichro   http://www.johnblazydesigns.com

4. 
   DougF | Mar 08, 2004 11:02pm | #4

   Hi,

   The outline that Rob describes will achieve the same results for lacquer.  I have had great success using MacGuires (sp/) rubbing compounds as the last step final sanding with the wet and dry, sometimes up to 2000 grit, but usually I stop at 1200, followed by a rub-out of rottenstone.  I have also found that the finishing paper found in automotive paint supply stores is superior to that found in workworking outlets and they have a greater grit range from which to choose.  You can achieve this high finish using shellac as well as varnish, either of which is better to lacquer for areas destined to get a lot of use and prone to spilled liquids.

   Good luck.

   Doug

5. 
   XOrionFe | Mar 09, 2004 04:12pm | #5

   Thank you to all that replied. 

   Sounds like I have to do some experimenting using some of these techniques and maybe a two part epoxy build on some scrap.

   It also sounds like I might have to invest in some spray equipment.

   Boy....if my wife jjust liked traditional shaker furniture or something along those lines life would be much easier.  However, where is the fun in that!

   Thanks again.

6. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 10, 2004 02:39am | #6

   Scott,

   There are a number of finishes that will achieve the high gloss, "glass-like" finish. Two component (2K) polyurethanes, acid catalyzed varnishes, and polyester are out of reach for all but a fully equipped finishing facility. The finishes that do not require specialized spray equipment and/or personal safety equipment for the spraying operation include shellac, lacquer, and short oil varnishes (like Behlens "RockHard") (though you do need a proper respirator when spraying any of these finishes). Regular varnishes (including polyurethane) do not cure hard enough to rub out to a high gloss; the short oil varnishes do.

   You're not going to get a "glass" finish with one of these finishes without the rubbing process. So pick the one that has the durability characteristics you want. After applying the finish (whatever you use), let it cure for at least a month and then do the rub-out. The month's waiting time will allow the finish to cure/shrink enough to avoid the wood grain reappearing in the surface of the finish.

   Durability wise, varnish is the best, followed by lacquer, followed by shellac. Just FYI, there's an article that compares the characterisics of finishes at this link - Selecting a Finish - and there's an article that details a technique to rub out a finish at this link - Rubbing Out a Finish.

   Good luck,

   Paul

1. 
   XOrionFe | Mar 10, 2004 05:54pm | #7

   Thanks Paul,

   I have read both links and am prepared to do the rubbing process.   I plan on using the coloring process with Transtint and Dewaxed Shellac done by Terry M.  in a recent Finewoodworking article on finishing Birseye Maple. 

   The final finish is what still has me a little stumped.  I purchased Jeffs latest book on finishing from Taunton and read 3 times cover to cover.   I also have read other books.  Still I get confused.

   I purchased a can of Deft brushing lacquer and was going to try that but in looking at the forums (which I found the Homestead forums even more enlightening then this one) I am now thinking of using the Oxford Hybrid or maybe the Rockhard Table finish from Behlens.

   I would like to try spaying and am willing to purchase a decent gun and compressor and make a spray booth in the garage.  I also later plan on doing a built in entertainment center out of maple and that almost definitly would require spraying due  to surface area.

   My question I guess is simple.  Since I want to spray but would like to sometimes do small stuff in the basement and don't want the hassle of setting up for explosion proof fans and stuff, it seems that water based laquer is the was to go for the table.  Now, which one would you suggest based on experience?  The next step would be to determine a decent spray rig.

   Thank you again for your help. 

   PS. I will post this in the other forum as well.

   Scott

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 11, 2004 01:39am | #8

   Scott,

   For spraying, a waterborne finish is the safest way to go. You DO still need to use a respirator and have an adequate supply of fresh air, but the risks are far less than solvent finishes.

   I've used a number of brands of waterborne finishes; Minwax Polycrylic, Sherwin Williams Kem-Aqua, Crystalac, Hood Finishing Resisthane, Fuhr, and Target Coatings come to mind. Of these, I like the finishes from Target Coatings the best. I usually use their Premium Spray Lacquer (PSL) which has almost identical properties to a cab-acrylic solvent lacquer (they've just replaced the PSL with "Oxford Ultima"). Their Oxford Hybrid is an oil-modified waterborne varnish that has the look and performance characterisics of a varnish (more durable than lacquer). Target has a nice article on getting a "glass" finish using the Oxford Hybrid at this link - Oxford Hybrid. With waterborne finishes, you still need the 30 day cure time before rubbing to a high gloss.

   On flat surfaces, I like to use Abralon disks to do the rub-out; saves on all the "elbow grease." Abralon is a padded abrasive disk that attaches to a hook & loop random orbit sander; it comes in grits from 180 - 4000. Start with whatever grit levels the finish the easiest (e.g., 600) and work your way up. After going through the grits, use a little polishing compound and a spritz of water to bring out the high gloss. Do a little section at a time.

   Paul

1. 
   XOrionFe | Mar 11, 2004 03:03am | #9

   Thanks alot Paul.  This is the exact info I needed.  I will also check out the Abralon pads.   I bought a Surbuff pad but the abrasive papers sound like something I will need.

   Scott