Just got this link in the e-mail newsletter:
http://www.americancraftmag.org/article.php?id=6051
Its referred to in the Editors Mailbag Blog here:
http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/item/9016/can-fine-woodworking-and-art-furniture-coexist
Curious what Knots members think about this?
I’m continually surprised by comments from woodworkers that use the phrase “artsy fartsy”. Its as if there is something deeply offensive at seeing work that doesn’t look like something that person has seen before. I didn’t think Loeser’s comments was necessarily an attack on the magazine other than to point out that focusing on technique alone doesn’t necessarily lead to better work.
Personally I think when woodworking creeps close to that non-functional boundary its a subjective aesthetic issue and if you want to perceive it as art then whether it does anything for you is the point.
Whether I like any one piece done by the conceptual woodworkers isn’t really the point to me, I just enjoy that there are people working at the boundaries and I like seeing what they are up to. I like seeing whats possible vs. just probable.
This could be beating a dead horse (i.e. the Gary Knox Bennet “Nail Cabinet”) but I failed to see what is so offensive about Loeser’s statements. Some of the commenters on the blog seemed to be really tweaked.
Replies
I agree. I personally love Loeser's stuff--very creative and imaginative. I've never seen it in person, so I can't attest to his construction methods and how durable his furniture would be. He makes some good points in his article. I think that FWW is sensitive to criticisms aimed at the heart of their work. Garry Knox Bennett refers to those purists as 'woodies'. I have an appreciation for artistic stuff as well as traditional stuff. I would like to see FWW feature more artistic stuff. They used to. Tom
Let's first go back to Loeser's statement:
"I think the woodworking world is too small, too limited, and too defined by Fine Woodworking magazine,"
I think I kinda know what he means. I didn't take him to be saying that FWW dictates an agenda, but more that it reflects the generally conservative attitude that exists out there toward furniture making - lots of reproductions, and then new work that doesn't get very far from Moser, Krenov, tweaked Shaker, Nakashima, etc.
Now something similar could likely be said about plenty of fields I suppose from clothing fashions to Rock and Roll. Truly original stuff doesn't come along all that often in established disciplines and what worked in the past will still work.
Then you have the whole what is an "art" versus what is a "craft" can of worms. I don't think that debate tends to ever lead anywhere. For me, the better touchstone is "quality" -- broadly interpreted to mean something that is sincerely put forth as an expression of the worker's vision and effort and succeeds.
I think that's why handtools are making a comeback. Using only power tools and measured plans, a side table made only with power toools is going to look pretty well the same coming from one compentent maker and another. Not much room for expression really when the tool makes it flat and with thousandths tolerances (maybe grain selection and finish). But if i made my version of hayrake table using my handtools, it wouldn't be mistaken for Don Weber's or Lataxe's.
Anyway, I've drifted, but interesting topic.
Ever read Zen and the Art of Motocylce Maintainence? I seem to remember a lengthy train of thought on "quality" (or was it "value"?). Anyway . . .Brian
I personally feel like we can admire a person's craftsmanship, yet not care for his artistic vision.
I'm probably not qualified to judge art, but I DON'T care for Loeser's artistic vision and it's difficult to judge his craftsmanship by the photos provided. But if he had fun making it, good for him.
I steadfastly insist the the best car I ever owned was my '70 VW bug, yet an automobile critics would likely rip my opinion to shreds.
I say 'Who cares. To each his own.'
I'm going to agree and disagree, which is the same thing only different.
FWW is traditional and constrained by established styles, techniques, and "voices" from the contributing authors, but I don't think that's a bad thing because in many ways it is the ideal of function before form.
Another aspect that should not be overlooked is that some techniques or design elements may be traditional but they are so because they simply work and stand a test of time. For example, the "golden rectangle" has been around since the Greeks yet it's still a standard.
In most issues I can find articles that focus on the aesthetic, for example the piece on fan inlays in #204. The reader's gallery always feature work that is heavily artisan in nature, not just craftsman, and there are often back page features of artists who work with wood, like the feature on Jacques Vesery's work a while back.
I'd like to see more coverage of what would be considered art but not if it comes at the expense of the meat-and-potatoes that FWW currently focuses on. I don't think Knots participants are dismissive of art, but rather that art work just tends to be more polarizing.
Wait a minute. The title is "Can Fine Woodworking and art furniture coexist?" but then the focus shifts to "American Craft" magazine, which obviously isn't art. Seriously, "fine" woodworking doesn't impose a limited list of styles. It's woodworking that is well done. That can be "artsy-fartsy", traditional, or whatever suits the whim of the skilled woodworker.
It is too bad that Loeser didn't choose his words more carefully, I doubt that he meant to dis FWW. It is also unfortunate that he doesn't see the value in having magazines with a multiplicity of choice in what they cover. I like the coverage that FWW caters to and wouldn't want to see them swerve off into a fine art direction. Woodworker magazine certainly has some of that in its presentations, especially in their gallery pages. The woodworking may be superb but I generally do not like much of what I see in the gallery. Most of it seems to approach that non-functional zone. Where do you put stuff like that in your house?
Art is definitely in the eye of the beholder and I don't believe I have that eye. I was going through the Boston Museum of Art some years ago and came across a clear Plexiglas box with a lemon inside with a light bulb stuck in it. Obviously the museum staff thought it was art, it was given a central focus, I personally thought it was garbage.
My reaction to the article is that there is an artificial dichotomy imposed by some of the commenters on the article in the editor's blog. The question of "where do you put this stuff in your house?" isn't the point; I don't think the work of Loeser or Wendell Castle is intended to be a product line. It is what it is, doesn't mean you have to like it. But if it makes you think about what you do like even if its the opposite of what you are viewing, then it is a success on some level.I really do tend to think of the conceptual woodworkers to be the equivalent of concept cars in the auto industry. Simply trying out new forms.I have no issue with the content of FWW, it rarely has an article in it at this point that makes me want to buy a copy but I think that has more to do with where I am as a woodworker vs. the magazine. Its fantastic as reference. I think for many woodworkers as you progress its natural to surpass the content that the magazines offer.I think Loeser's comments were useful in the sense that it is good to point out that once you learn technique its worthwhile to focus on the merits of what you want to build. This really only matters depending on what your motivation is for woodworking.It does remind me of issues with playing music. You can be happy just playing someone else's music or you can try to make your own. Great playing in a bad song isn't too memorable, but it can be fun. I know I really enjoy playing guitar but when I listen to what I do even if its OK from a technical aspect I can tell its pretty bad music. Anybody that is a fan of music that demands technique (bluegrass, metal, jazz, etc.) knows it can get pretty tiresome when its only technique on display. My feeling is that Loeser was just saying "don't get too caught up in technique and tradition." I don't think he was making any statement of "I'm better than you" which seemed to be the reaction of some.
‘The Emperors New Clothes’ came to mind.
DustyMc
"‘The Emperors New Clothes’ came to mind."How so?I really thought the discussion had to do with what I interpreted as Loeser's feeling about too much focus on technique and traditional forms.
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The line between craft and art has been defined; those that profess the classification of art have attempted to keep craft out of their art world. Some believe craft is a process where the craftsman follows a set of predetermine plans to make an item and requires no creative part during the process on the craftsman. They credit the designer with the creative process only if they see something other then functionality. But they lose sight that many times the designer and the craftsman are one of the same. They also believe the artist in the general sense has transcended above the processes in their medium and works without thought of it and only focuses on the creativeness of the art, unlike the craftsman who focuses of the medium to reach their artistic goals. On the other hand we as craftsman have a problem with the classification of an art form as a craft unless the focus is on the process of creating the art through a medium. Simply put the craftsman looks at the process and the artist look at the creativity to reach similar goals, it’s a matter of perspective. and this is what divides us.
Mr. Loesers is in his attempt to ‘cross over’ the demark of craft/art is weaving an invisible cloak to redefine the craft of woodworking as art so that those that profess the art view to look at craft from a different perspective. His singling out of the Fine Woodworking magazine was an attempt to pick out the most respected publication the craft of woodworking has in hopes of changing its focus or at least open it up to the artist perspective.
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But then there’s that innocence voice that comes out from the crowd; ‘but he has nothing on’.
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Thanks, great reply. Appreciate you taking the time to put your thoughts together so effectively and concisely. Do you have an academic connection to the art world?The line between craft and art is a tough concept for me. I have the idea that if you are motivated by purely aesthetic expression then art is what you are doing. Sort of like the difference between poetry and prose. Sculpture vs. function. I couldn't create sculpture if my life depended on it even though I have the technique and knowledge.The technical side of woodworking doesn't hold a lot of fascination for me beyond the "gearhead" aspect of problem solving and working with mechanical processes.Trying to make something that is both interesting and beautiful is what I aim for with my work, and I find it far more difficult to do than joinery. I'll be pleased if I can actually accomplish it. I am focusing on chairs so the function is just as important. Its not in my talents to do something to "make a statement"; I'm no poet in the woodshop.I got the feeling that some thought the type of work that Loeser, etc. do is without merit. And that is what I thought you might have meant with the "emperor's clothes" comment, but didn't want to make the assumption.I guess the subject intrigues me because I like seeing the crazy stuff people do within the scope of "furniture". This for me is different than thinking any particular piece is good. If a piece doesn't click with me doesn't mean I think its a waste of time.
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I have a friend that is a professor at the local university who works in the style and tradition of 18th and 19th century redware pottery; we’ve had many discussions concerning craft verse art. I like to compare pottery to woodworking to set the argument of craft verses art to show how pottery is accepted as an art form and woodworking is not. To get attention one must build in the fashion as Mr. Loeser, even then they sometimes hesitate to accept it and mostly look at it as just another attempt to convince them that it is art. I have accepted the fact that this stigma embraced by the art circles is impregnable.
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Trying to make something that is both interesting and beautiful is what I aim for with my work, and I find it far more difficult to do than joinery. I'll be pleased if I can actually accomplish it. I am focusing on chairs so the function is just as important. Its not in my talents to do something to "make a statement"; I'm no poet in the woodshop.<!----><!---->
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This is the place to be in woodworking, this will define you as a woodworker. Art in itself is not functional which is its handicap but our challenge. To create something both functional and beautiful takes time, sometimes many years to perfect. I give you Sam Maloofs work as an example.
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Look at the sculpture of Martin Puryear. He is a trained woodworker who can employ all the traditional techniques and he does. His work is highly crafted, yet it is clearly not craft. It asks multiple layers of questions, as all art should.
Can you give us a hint to what it is?
Martin Puryear is a sculptor and the piece pictured is a piece of sculpture. He recently had a retrospective exhibit of his work. Very highly regarded and considered one of the top contemporary sculptors of today.
http://cghs.dadeschools.net/african-american/twentieth_century/puryear.htmHis brother, Michael is a furniture maker...http://www.michaelpuryear.com/
It asks multiple layers of questions, as all art should
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No offence intended just wondered what it was called.
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Guess I shouldn’t have crossed the great divide, sorry.
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Good thread.
I have debated the art/craft thing, seem's the people who have a degree in the Batchlour of Fine Art's, always look down at the garage woodworker who dosn't use the all lines straight and 3/4 inch mentality, as a crafts person, yet you look at their paintings and wonder why some one has proclamed him an artist.
One so called artist, looked at one table and said what's artistic about that? I said it reflected the femine form. A few days later he asked for a picture so I gave him one. He days later admitted he just saw the wood and never saw the form, color, or the shape of the table back and, removable breasts. I then explain my work is performance art and it is like a new style of creative dance but alone in a shop with my tools and wood. again he balked but then relented, Then he asked to trade the table for a painting. " No ! my wife would kill me" She likes the table if I can sell it It helps pay the bills If I hung your art on the wall she would be out a table.My wife is my best critic, Not an academic but has an eye for form, function and all the desire for me to push the edge.
Not an academic but has an eye for form..
And you wife showed some form to you that caught your attention!
Laugh i'm trying to find the pics of one table if not will retake some.
My weekend neighbors are two doctors they are great folks. I was showing her that one table and she was rubbing it and said " oh that's so feminine" blushed and then I said "i'll put the breasts on so when your folks come over they won't object" so I stuck them on and she started to laugh and question my intake of things. Then I told her I was a lesbien trapped in a male body. she laughed so hard, a few hours later her hubby askes us over for a drink. He says" So do you wear womens clothes in the shop" We all just about fell off the deck laughing.
They describe my work as art. I accept there view.
They also see me banging beams into a sagging boat house and building retaining walls. So I think they can understand the difference between carpentery/fine wood work.In a perfect world I would like a years worth of commisions for art pieces of others femine forms using live model's but, life just ain't that way. YET!!
If you have to ask, "What is it?", it's probably art.
If someone says, "Nice chair" it's not art.
Bill
Brilliant.
Bill,"If someone says, "Nice chair" it's not art."What if it's not really a chair?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Then tell them to "sit on it."
Art, you dummy.
Edited 3/21/2009 8:31 pm ET by gofigure57
"His work is highly crafted, yet it is clearly not craft"Looks like craft to me. How would you define craft?
Perhaps I should have said that if I had to put a label of either "art" or "craft" on his work, that label would not be craft.... which then must mean it's art. I'm not going to try to define either art or craft. Neither am I going to get in any sort of argument about it. Having worked in both disciplines for many years, I have clearly defined lines that I apply to my work but would not assume that others would necessarily agree.
I'd probably be one of those that would be on the "disagree" end of the spectrum.
The fact that this discussion can edge towards the snippy is interesting. Seems like the conversation about art and woodworking is a loaded topic. Since the issue depends largely on opinion in the first place I suppose its not surprising.I realize there is an academic definition of art compared to craft. The thing about woodworking is that the opportunity for self expression is present; whether you choose to utilize it is another matter. Compared to a plumber or electrician there is no comparison.I know what drives me to be a woodworker and it doesn't have much to do with the vast wealth in the trade or the opportunity to experience amputation. However at this point I don't spend much time thinking about why I'm a woodworker, I just do what I do. But what I really wonder about is why some seem to be bothered that another woodworker consciously considers artistic content within their work?How someone else generates their ideas, or that they take the time to realize them doesn't seem like an issue. Sam Maloof may have been thinking about man's-inhumanity-to-man, placenta, or nothing at all when he created his rocking chair; but whatever it was wouldn't change my reaction to his work.Same with Loeser, etc. His reasons for making the stacked rocker don't really matter to me nor whether it would go with my coffee table. I would find it interesting to know what his idea was but not offensive.Aspects of this discussion me of the phrase "latte drinking" and "wine sipping" that people add to pigeonhole and trivialize. I like coffee and don't really care how someone else likes to drink theirs.It seems some think a woodworker that has it in his/her mind that they are making "art" lacks the humble attitude that is apparently a prequisite. I think that has more to do with those person's assumptions about artists that the reality of the humble woodworker.
I remember having this art v craft discussion back in college 35 years ago; I'm no farther along resolving it now than I was back then.It's interesting to read this discussion and others like it that have appeared here. One of the fault lines seems to be between those who either like or dislike a piece solely on its own merits and those who see outside factors influencing their appreciation. Taste is subjective, yes, but it is highly influenced by our individual and cultural histories. Arts & crafts furniture evolved as much as a statement protesting mass production as an aesthetic choice about the appearance of each piece. Jazz music is based on improvisation in part because it rejects the classicism that mandates every note be written down before a performance. Similarly, someone may like Shaker furniture as a reaction to growing up in a household of ornate stuff. I personally dislike the distinction between artist and craftsman because both have enormous value and because there is no clear line delineating each. But in general I would say that artists tend to be more self-conscious of the cultural context within which they work. Their dialog with that context is part of the work's identity, and if you take the context away you are left with something incomprehensible—in Andy Warhol's case, you're left with just a soup can, and in John Coltrane's case you're left with just noise.
Edited 3/23/2009 2:22 pm ET by nboucher
If one takes the cultural context out of furniture then one is left without:
Greene & Greene
William and Mary
Shaker
Art Nouveau
ModernThere would be no Oriental style, no European style, no American style.......Remove culture from any part of our lives (not just the art part) and we'll all be left sitting around sucking our thumbs.
If one takes the cultural context out of our life, then one is left with only:
Pabst Blue Ribbon beer,
White t-shirts,
Watching MXC on Spike TV,
and Yanni records.
I think woodworking and other crafts certainly can be art. Look at
the museums that have furniture departments with not only old
furniture but also modern craftsmen like Sam Maloof.A well made piece of furniture is not only useful but pleasant to
look at. How can that be anything but art?Domer
There's an aspect to this that Mr. Loeser doesn't explicitly deal with in his comments. In particular, there's a relatively small percentage of the population that has any appreciation for, much less admiration for, highly abstract or "weird" pieces, whether they be wood sculpture, paintings, pottery, etc...
There has always been a tension in the art world between those that consider such works as "ridiculous", and those that consider people with conventional tastes to be "ignorant".
To a large extent, FWW as a business cannot cater to those that find highly abstract "art pieces" to be the pinnacle - the rather vast majority of the subscribers/readers to FWW (and the population as a whole) is considerably more interested in making furniture that has style, but does not attract attention to itself as "art".
If one were to critically examine why Nakashima's and Maloof's work is so incredibly popular, I think one would find that the reason is that it is understated. Many works by Messr. Loeser and others on the "cutting edge" of woodworking as art would be seen as truly goofy by a large fraction of the woodworking population, and like any business, FWW cannot survive on the 10% of them that appreciate "artsy-fartsy".
"artsy fartsy". I do that! But I would NEVER call myself a ART student.. I for one think there is no distinction between 'ART' and 'Craft'.. Or good and Bad woodworking (If all the parts fit well!)
It is all in the eye of the person makng it or looking at it. Period!
As in Arts-En'-Crafts.. Nice, very nice, BUT hardly Art.. More Craft's in my eye... But then again I loved that 1960? Bean Bag... Or that 1949's, or so, back seat of my Chopped Mercury automoblie! The girls love trying to crall into the car window of a chopped car.. I would guess they just loved to show off ther cleavage? Black finish and a spark plug in each of the twin pipes pipes that sounded off when she said we could go on another date! Yes, I had twin pipes on my old flat head 8 cylinder. I do not remember if it was the original engine???
OK, So the girl and I just listened to 'Shrimp Boats are A Commin' .. There will be dancing tonight...
I guess all I can say is a agree with you! Every place and every Time has a place for somebody to enjoy.. If they sit back and take a really good look. I like almost anyhing! Very fussy about Women thought.. They have to look sort of Female...
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