I had an incident with a Freud Dado set that I wanted to post here and let folks know how it was handled. I was cutting 23/32 dadoes in a piece of 3/4 inch plywood and after installing the blade, I turned on the table saw and the dado blade came loose (somehow)and shot carbide tips back at me. Well I sent the blade back to Freud and they determined that the dado may have been tight(which it was) but I must have had the teeth against one another and when I turned the saw on, it spun the outer blades but not the inner chippers. I dealt with Jim in customer service and I have to agree with him. He told me that it was not warranty because the teeth nor the dado blade failed. I also agree. I was expecting to get my damaged blade sent back to me, but instead Jim decided to send me a new dado blade instead! He could have told me tough luck, but he did not. I thought that was a very professional, customer oriented gesture on his part and I wanted to let everyone know. Thanks Freud for being a stand-up company that cares about its customers. I hear, and read many bad experiences with companies but thought you folks might want to hear a good one.
Jeff
Replies
Jeff,
This is going to be an odd post here, but I don't really follow this praise. You admit that the errors were your mistake and you still get a new blade? I guess I have questions because maybe if it wasn't Jim you talked to or someone who was having a bad day and you called them and they said sorry about your luck then what would you say? Would you or anyone else still be willing to admit that it was your fault and not the companies, thus, your loss?
Good customer service shouldn't be rewarding someone when they do something wrong, and the problem you get here is do they start to replace every unit that is user error, and if they do what happens when they realize they are loosing money and then say no more. On the other hand, they could continue to replace the blades, but eventually they would raise the price to cover the loss then people who are doing the right thing get pentalized in the name of "customer service". I'm not saying that you attempted to do this, but this is no different that filing an insurance claim that is really non-exsistent. Yes, they will usually cut you a check just for the heck of it and to seem like a "good" company, but in the long run when enough people do it and they pay out enough in checks they raise everyone's premiums which makes everyone pay for the errors of some. How would you feel if they would have simply said, "sorry about your luck", would that then warrant a negative review of their customer service?
I honestly wonder if you knew you were at fault why would you send the blades in and then even after you did you conceded again that you were at fault, but you still accepted the replacements. Bio
Edited 8/5/2008 8:00 pm ET by BioHaz1906
Let's see how many other ways we can criticize Freud for choosing to do something nice and undeserving for a customer. Does it really matter the reason or what it cost them?
Greg
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You missed the whole point of what I said. I think what Freud did was GREAT, especially for the original poster, but remember NOTHING is free. Some way, some how Freud is going to still see their profits regardless of who pays the cost in the long run. Numerous events like this will cause price to increase in the long run for the people who are doing it right.
If I broke my Freud dado and it was my error I would like to be in the same boat as Jim, but if they told me they wouldn't replace it I won't run here and flame them about poor customer service. On the other hand, I bet you can find someone on this forum who had a legit claim against the craftsmanship of a Freud blade and they were not met with such a forgiving and understanding customer service representative who gave them a replacement. Is that fair????
Let me make this clear, hats off to Freud for doing what they didn't have to do, and hats off to the op for being honest. I just posed the question what if they didn't send a replacement, would there still be praises?
Bio
Some way, some how Freud is going to still see their profits regardless of who pays the cost in the long run. Numerous events like this will cause price to increase in the long run for the people who are doing it right.
Let me see if I understand where you are coming from: This guy made a mistake (possibly) and damaged his own blade. In the process of trying to figure out what happened, he sent the blade back, looking for an explanation. Freud replaced the blade, at their option, at their cost. But because this guy did this, it was somehow wrong, and Freud will raise all of our prices to compensate for it?
You have this situation mixed up with a guy who buys his first skil saw from Home Depot, goes home and accidently cuts the cord off. He then promptly returns the saw for a full refund. This is what raises prices. What Freud did was take the Lee Valley approach to customer service, and you're pi$$ing all over it.
Lee
What Freud did was do what they would be required to do if it was a defect in their product based on their warranty. The conclusion was made by both the company and the user that it was USER ERROR. Are you honestly saying that product replacement be it user error or just friendly customer service comes at no cost to someone? Do you think the company is absorbing that cost?
So no i'm not "pi$$ing" on what was done, I'm just making a point that we shouldn't be mad if a company doesn't reward us for our mistake. As I stated in my additional post, I would love to be in the same position and get the same results, but if I didn't get such a favorable outcome, I wouldn't do the norm and come here and talk about how poor the customer service is. You can still have GREAT customer service even if you don't get what you want in the end, especially if you dont' deserve it.
Bio
I agree. Besides, we're talking about a blade for a saw here, not a machine that can do brain scans. If Freud wants to give someone a blade, that's their business and I'm reasonably sure this won't cause the company to shut down and fire everyone or add to the national debt of Italy.
"...or add to the national debt of Italy...." -HHRancho, Knots
"...I don't give a s**t about the lira...." Richard Nixon, White House
Just adding some past Presidential perspective to the discussion <Gr>.
BioI understand your conclusion, but I am not in agreement. If by replacing so many blades ruined by customer error that their bottom line is affected, I believe they have a design problem - not a customer relations problem.Suppose you are 100% correct on your conclusion, They couldn't buy advertising for $50 at most that they are going to get by the OP posting here and talking about Freud at every chance he gets. Furthermore, I bet they just earned a lifetime customer.As a photographer, I had a client accidentally damage an 8x10 in front of me even after I instructed her how to hold it and after she declined to invest $20 in mount and spray that I said would just about guarantee it would be here for her grandchildren's grandchildren. I replaced it free of charge for her. I think this is a similar situation.Greg
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Exo 35:30-35<!---->
Greg,
Great example, but what if you didn't replace the 8x10? Should that customer provide negative feedback on you and your product? Good people make the world go round and that is great, but when do good intentions stop paying for poor judgement? Same thing with the tons of lawsuits in the USA. How the heck do you allow someone to sue because their coffee was to hot? If we continue to reward for things that shouldn't be rewarded companies have to find a way to continue to make their profit and you and I both know where that expense will eventually end up.
Bio
You keep bringing up a non-issue: That someone here is complaining about "X" company not taking care of their problem and is using the forum or other public venue to voice disapproval. Give it up. Save it for the post when someone actually screws up something and is ticked off because the vendor won't make it right.
I'm sure everyone here agrees with you on the fact that if someone is the cause of the problem, then the manufacturing company should hold no liability. The point being made here is that they took accountability and made it right. And no, I don't belive the prices will reflect the fact that they "took care of" a customer or two or two hundred. It hasn't caused Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen, and all of those other extremely customer oriented vendors to raise their prices so your argument has no basis.
What they did was replace a product that cost them X but in the long run that happy customer will more than likely spend plenty more $$$ with said company. Money well spent.
Lee
Really I'm not, but if you want to see it that way that is fine.
Bio
If we continue to reward for things that shouldn't be rewarded companies have to find a way to continue to make their profit and you and I both know where that expense will eventually end up.
You are comparing apples to oranges here. McDonalds didn't voluntarily reward that dumb broad who spilled hot coffee on her private parts. They were forced by the judicial system here in the US to pay her damages. Freud voluntarily paid for a replacement blade for the OP. Nobody made them take action.
Lee
You have hit the nail on the head on the key difference here Lee, The OP was not trying to defraud Freud he merely wanted to know what happened. He did not lie or deceive and did not expect Freud to pay for his mistake. Freud voluntarily out of the goodness of their hearts decided to spend some of their money to give him a new set. How Freud spends their money is no ones business but Freuds.
Mucho kudos to Freud for how they chose to spend some of their profits.
Between Charles M.'s freely given help and advice here and the members positive feedback on their experiences with Freud products and Freuds actions above and beyond as illustrated in this thread they have a credibility with me that no amount of advertising could buy.
I'd say as a business model that was money well spent.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Dgreen,
One question. How would you feel if they would have said thanks for your interest, but due to our research and admitted user error you will be responsible for replacement? Would it warrant a sparkling review? Think about it, the original post was commenting on Freud doing something that the user actually knew he didn't deserve, but was extremely grateful that they did it for him.
I would have thanked them for their research time and interest and yes it would have warranted a sparkling review.
There is a difference between defrauding a company and them giving you a gift.
How Freud spends their profits is no one else's concern. If you feel their prices are too high due to their trying to give a customer a break then don't buy their product, it's as simple as that.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
I said nothing about thier prices, nor their quality. I simply said someone has to pay for the blade, who is it? Is it worth the extra bucks to know that you have a company that will replace the blade regardless of how bad you screw up, sure but even if that is the case I bet you the estimated cost of that replacement is distributed somewhere. I seriously doubt the company is absorbing the loss.
Edited 8/5/2008 11:57 pm ET by BioHaz1906
I didn't mean to infer that you did. I was using the "editorial" you. Hard to get the nuances across in a typed conversation.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Very entertaining arguement. Thanks guys.
You ain't getting away that easy! There's no second e in argument!!! :)
What is your learned opinion on this weighty matter sir?
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Ha, this is actually good banter and I'm waiting on others to wake up and provide feedback. This may grow to a HUGE thread.
This may grow to a HUGE thread.
If Mel (9619) shows up it's sure to hit 2500 posts!
heh heh
Lee
I hope it does grow into a big thread, dishonesty is a huge cost on all of us. Gifts from good companys are a miniscule portion of our costs. Glad you are participating.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
True, I love what they did and I respect them for going the extra mile. Like I said, I got my Freud blade so hey, if ANYTHING goes wrong you know I'm expecting a favorable outcome because they are so generous. Flip side, another problem with society is if someone reads this and doesn't get that replacement guess what they'll do next. Yep, you guessed it, straight to court, some type of discrimination suit coming. I can hear it now, your blade is bigger than mine :)
On a serious note, I'm glad the op wasn't in front of that blade when it shredded. I never really thought about it prior but I'll always duck when I turn mine on from now on. At the end of the day, regardless of who pays for it I want all of us to be safe and a bunch of high-speed metal flying around isn't to safe.
Bio
On a serious note, I'm glad the op wasn't in front of that blade when it shredded. I never really thought about it prior but I'll always duck when I turn mine on from now on. At the end of the day, regardless of who pays for it I want all of us to be safe and a bunch of high-speed metal flying around isn't to safe.
Which brings up my Freud story - I had an allen bolt that holds the bearing on a classical router bit come off after several months of ownership and chip the carbide tip. Not very much use, but had it long enough to know it wasn't under warrranty. I called to ask them if they could fix it (my cost, of course). They said send it back, we'll take a look at it. They sent a brand new bit a few days later, free of charge. If they had not - nobody would have ever heard a peep from me and I would have still bought router bits from them. I'm not sure if the bolt was not tightened properly at the factory, or if it became loose in the very little bit I used it. In either event, I feel I was partly to blame for not checking to see if it was tight before I used it (something I do religiously now). Luckily, the allen bolt never hit me and I never even found it in my shop. That was six or eight years ago. I also have several saw blades (but my favorite is my Forrest WWII).
Good night and take care,
Lee
Since you asked: I grapple with a similar issue as a business owner, but the one example I always site is the department store that will give you back the difference between what you paid and what is now the sale price even though you freely bought the item 3 weeks ago, used it, and it's now on sale. Why should they? The answer is strictly marketing. If the customer does not get the refunded difference, they walk away feeling a little bit cheated even though they weren't. If the customer gets the refunded difference, they feel good about their purchase and the store's attitude. Do they really deserve the refund? I say no. Would I give it to them? Absolutely. Why? Because people are emotional beings and are subject to illogical conclusions and feelings (just ask Spock). So... the customer who gets the refund will not think twice about shopping there again (and not wait for a sale) and the customer who did not get the refund will not be as likely to shop there again. Since the store's profits are much more tied to volume than the occasional refund, they will opt to give the refund and gain the customer. Does that ultimately raise prices for the rest of us? Not likely because it keeps the smart businesses in business which we know creates sharp competition, which ultimately lowers prices.
In the case of Freud, the cost of manufacturing the dado set is probably around $20. Their profit from the next saw blade that guy buys is probably around $20. The next purchase becomes profitable and the 100 people he recommends Freud products to that each buy a blade is now $2000 profit. Get it?
So the real answer is, smart companies do what makes the most customers happy, that results in the most profit, even if appears to make little sense. The only profitable airline is SW. They are the only one that will let you bank the full value of a non-changeable, non-refundable ticket. I give them all the business I can.
...since you asked.
You are 110% correct. It is better business to retain a customer for life than to find a new one. I am sure the production cost of the blade is minimal. The advertising cost, the packaging, the fixed overhead, the distribution, the attorneys etc all account for a great deal more of the cost of the blade. They will replace blades all day long and go the bank the rest of the OP life. They created a dialog with a customer, and have entered into a relationship. One of trust, value and commitment. Now where can you buy that on the market for $40? <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Sure seems like a win-win to me too!
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
You call her a "dumb broad" for not knowing the coffee is hot, but it is ok that the blade instructions say do NOT let the blades touch and they do because of user error, what does that make the user? The reason I used the example is because companies will air on the side of caution so that maybe they head off a lawsuit before it starts.
As one person said, who's to say that the blade shredding wasn't Freud's fault, but how can you say that the cost of replacing this is not passed to someone? I mean listen to your arguement. If there was no cost associated with Freud blades then why did you pay for them in the first place? If they can replace blades that the user admits it was his/her error they can only do that if they have some built in charges that would cover defective materials, guess who paid that charge.
Which goes to my original thing, in the end someone has to pay, who is that? Everyone seems to keep dancing around that question. Someone pays, who is it? Is it fair for you to pay more for coffee because of the "dumb broad" that you spoke of earlier? NO, just like it isn't fair for you to have to pay more for blades because of user error.
Lastly, you don't have to agree with me on this and that is fine. I state again I am glad for the original poster that Freud did what they did, but the bottom line is someone had to pay for it. Do you really think it was the company that did?
Bio
Is it fair for you to pay more for coffee because of the "dumb broad" that you spoke of earlier? NO, just like it isn't fair for you to have to pay more for blades because of user error.
If my memory serves me correct, that dumb broad got somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 million dollars in her settlement. Not only did the coffee not go up in price, now I can get a large coke for $1.00. Used to be $1.89. Who paid for the dumb broad's stupidity? I'm not saying McDonald's has never increased their prices - they have - to keep up with the rising costs associated with inflation. They sure as hell didn't pass the $20 million on to the burger eaters, as far as I can tell.
As far as paying more for blades because of user error: do you think that Freud pays $50 for a blade that they sell for $50? No, they have what is called profit. That is what is left over after manufacturing costs, packaging costs, advertising costs, salaries, etc. The replacement of items whether a warranty item or out of the kindness of their heart comes out of the profit. When the profits sink a tremendous amount the company assesses what it needs to do to get them (the profits) back up. They don't go out and raise the price of a sawblade because Joe Blow messed one up. What about all of the blades that get mis-stamped or sharpened wrong or bored wrong? Comes out of the profits. Key to running a sucessful company is managing your costs, which include spoilage. I'm sure if it gets to be a problem of epic proportion, Freud would stop honoring the claims such as the one made by the OP. And again, if he/she complained that they were shafted because they didn't receive a satisfactory outcome, they would have no basis and would be shot down in flames here and anywhere else for that matter.
Lee
"would be shot down in flames here and anywhere else for that matter."
Amen, I have no use for lowlife thieving scum that try to get others to pay for their mistakes, lack of knowledge or inexperience. A gift from a company to a customer is none of my business.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Lee,
It has been fun carrying on this chat and I respect all that has been said by you and others, but I do have to get to bed so that I can work hard tomorrow to pay for the mistakes of others :) I think after all of the waxing on and waxing off you have realized what I've been trying to bring out Dainiel Son :)
Re-read what you put and you will notice that you are coming around to what I said originally. You stated, "When the profits sink a tremendous amount the company assesses what it needs to do to get them (the profits) back up." EXACTLY!!!! What is one of the easiest ways to do this, increase price. Who pays the increased price? It may only translate into a few dollars, but you and I still pay it.
You also go on to state, "I'm sure if it gets to be a problem of epic proportion, Freud would stop honoring the claims such as the one made by the OP." EXACTLY!!!! I said if I had the same problem I would love to be in the shoes of the op BUT if enough of us start to walk in those shoes then someone's feet are going to hurt or in this case Freud's pocketbook will hurt. How do they solve that....THEY STOP HONORING THIS VERY GENEROUS SITUATION. Which takes me back to my other question, would we be raving about them if they didn't send a new blade back? I only posed the question about what if they didn't send the new blade back just to see how people would have rated the service because you also stated, "And again, if he/she complained that they were shafted because they didn't receive a satisfactory outcome, they would have no basis and would be shot down in flames here and anywhere else for that matter."
Need I say more Daniel Son :) Have a great night man and it has been LOTS of fun!!!!!!
Bio
p.s. Did I ever tell you I have a Freud dado set. Good to know that regardless of what I do they'll stand by my blade. :)
If you screw it up and it is no fault of Freuds and they decline to replace it, will you still give them a good review?
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Don,
In that situation, I would think nothing less of Freud's C/S. I would leave it at that - not write a negative review or a rave review.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
That would be a logical and fair response.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Is this to me or someone else? If it is to me, I must say you agree with me on my op. I was trying to bring out that we are so quick to flame someone for "poor" customer service but we really can't define it. Getting what we want when we shouldn't get it isn't GREAT customer service and maybe it shouldn't warrant sterling reviews.
Bio
I would say getting an unsolicited gift from Freud constitutes great customer service and rates a rave.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Ok
hi D ,
What happened was not much different then when a kid's scoop of ice cream falls off just as he got it handed to him and the scooper gives another (free) ice cream cone to the kid . No harm no foul , just kindness .
dusty
Interesting analogy but I'm not sure a flattering one to the original poster.
I'm of the opinion that 'customer service' should be a little more nuanced than sending out new product or issuing refunds every time somebody shows up with a long face. Really, at that point all you need is somebody answering the phone and writing down "ship-to" addresses and forwarding them to the warehouse, right?
Edited 8/8/2008 3:07 pm ET by BossCrunk
Hi Boss ,
The comparison I used may not have been flattering or the best analogy but my point is this was really similar to the ice cream because it was what we call " good will " .
No , I agree they can't just ask where to ship , perhaps it's a judgement call on the companies part .
The good will often comes back in the form of more business and repeat customers which correlates to our reputation . Every now and then a customer will want something extra after the fact , and it is usually not a big thing like 60 more feet of cabinets , it is more like some extra molding or a few more shelves or can you fix this old chair too .
Customer service is a rare commodity in it's true form these days but it is a good thing to find and when we do we tell many others all about it , I believe that is what may fuel many of the judgement calls made .
Hey , let's face it in this unstable economy even long time business's seem to be dropping like flies these day's so imo it is even more important to be straight shooters with our customers and go the extra mile to do our best .
I only do custom work and I always promise to do the job to the best of my ability within the budget so far after more then 26 years this has never been a bad thing .
regards from Oregon dusty
Good will works both ways, or at least should.
Customer service departments are in place to take care of honest customers with legitimate complaints, not to service buffoons who expect somebody to make them whole after they screw something up through no fault of the company's.
This is nothing more than insurance fraud, albeit on a smaller scale. Insurance companies pay out relatively small bogus claims all the time knowing bloody well they've been defrauded. There is virtually nothing different going on here. The insurance companies simply make up these costs through the premium income stream - the price they charge you and me for the coverage.
The OP has successfully delivered his message, which to me is this: "hey, buy Freud- if you F it up 'cause you don't know $hit from Shinola don't sweat it, they'll send you a new one." Rinse and repeat.
Pretty much all this tells me about Freud is how little hard costs they apparently have in their product.
Anybody else hearing Little Baby Chickens? Cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap....
Edited 8/8/2008 3:01 pm ET by BossCrunk
All-I posted the situation I had here with Freud out of pure excitement. I never asked Freud to send me a new blade but it was their choice to do so. The reason I was so excited was that I was not in a position to buy another right now. You know, its that whole recession thing. I wanted to share something that was positive in this world and I basically got called names by some rude, inconsiderate people. Is my work the same caliber of David Marks or Garrett Hack, hell no. But I can guarantee you I am not a "buffoon". I can promise that I do know "sh*t from Shinola", but just learning and made a mistake. Some of us around here are not perfect and are learning the craft.This is my last post here and I will move on from Knots. I know, I shouldn't be such a sissy and wear my feelings on my shoulder, but I guess I don't care for being insulted when I am trying to communicate my excitement. Its a shame because there is so much talent and good people. There is also some people here that are rude and don't know crap about woodworking but write like they do. I know I will get blasted for writing this, but I felt like I need to. A MESSAGE FOR YOU TO CONSIDER
I hope that when new people come along you will give a little thought as to how you converse with them. This being FWW, its one of the best forums around and people look here for help and don't need to be spoken to rudely. I really have to question how people communicate here in a rudely manner and I highly, highly doubt you would be that rude if you were speaking to me in person. So why do it here? Some of us are not as smart or talented as the rest but we would like to be someday. Just a thought. To everyone that has been pleasant here, thank-you and take care.Jeff
I'm glad that Freud made you whole on the dado set you ruined. The only lesson you've learned is to pick up the phone and roll the dice.
Next time, man up and replace the ruined equipment out of your own hip-pocket if you REALLY want to learn a lesson. If you know you ruined or broke something don't bother using the telephone. Take your lumps.
And if you do halfway know what you're doing then you ought to really be ashamed. What despicable behavior from a member of the brotherhood.
I'd send it back, donate it, find somebody who needs one and can't afford it. Something.
Bad Karma. I'd be scared of it. It's ill-gotten merchandise.
Edited 8/8/2008 5:27 pm ET by BossCrunk
He called Freud looking for answers as to what went wrong, not to ask for a new blade.
He did not ask for a replacement and was surprised when one arrived.
If you dislike how Freud spends their money then don't patronize them, but I fail to see how the OP did anything he should be ashamed of or feel guilty for.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Cool, and as soon as he confirmed it was his bad (he suspected it was) he should have said thanks, hung up the phone, and toodled on down to Home Depot to buy another one.
"Hello, customer service (tech support?) I think I may have screwed up my dado set. I need to figure out if I did and how to prevent this from happening to the next one that I BUY."
End of story.
D, this thing was a non-starter from the get go. How many defective dado sets do you think Freud ships? Hell, something like that could easily maim or kill somebody. Damn carbide teeth shearing off and spraying the room with shrapnel...
Please. OP called hoping he'd get made whole on his boo-boo. Please tell me you aren't wide-eyed enough to believe otherwise.
Edited 8/9/2008 7:57 am ET by BossCrunk
Sounds to me like that was exactly what he was planning when Freud decided to give him a replacement as a gift.
Do you turn down unsolicited gifts or do you graciously say thank you and take delight in an uncommon random act of generousity?
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
I would have said no thanks. At some point the OP had to give a shipping address. Plenty of time to do the right thing.
This is far different than understanding how to graciously receive a gift in a social context.
Edited 8/8/2008 5:45 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss ,
That is your individual opinion and thank you for sharing it .
Unfortunately it is not a perfect world .
dboxboy
so, after 2 years and 300 posts you are going to let a curmudgeon or 2 chase you away over this; is that all we mean to you?
the only guarantees around here are that 1)there is a lot of knowledge to be gained; 2) posts will take unexpected turns ever so often; 3) keyboarded words don't convey the same nuances that the spoken word does, and thus feelings sometimes get hurt; and 4) some of the posters have strong opinions about a variety of subjects and, for whatever reason, their fuses get lite-up and their responses seem disproportional to the original post.
everyone reads these posts based upon their own experiences, and therfore prejudices, and those experiences "color" their responses. don't let someone else's "baggage" become yours. it ain't all about you (wink). stick around, please.
Patrick ,
Great post , and I think he should stay around also .
How dull it wood be if we all agreed .
regards dusty
All,
As I read these comments now I am very disturbed. Some have taken what was a creative conversation of opinions, and made it into name calling and such. When I questioned the OP I simply did it to ask do we call things good customer service when we get what we want even if we truly don't deserve it?
All this name calling and accusations of fraud are totally baseless, and a bit far reaching for the scope of us on this forum. I agree that Freud did a noble thing and that was the reason for the OP, and I do agree that eventually someone has to pay (another point that I tried to bring about in my original view), but this one incident isn't going to tip the iceberg.
I am deeply sadden that I started this conversation because it has grown into something that it was not intended to be. Jeff, you need thicker skin, but at the same rate NOBODY should be calling you names and accusing you of criminal like activities. I have apologized to you in private and I will do it again in public....I AM SORRY FOR STARTING THIS WHOLE MESS!
Bio
Edited 8/9/2008 3:20 am ET by BioHaz1906
Bio; don't sweat it, we are all adults here and everything will be OK. It has been a useful thought provoking discussion and was worth having. Hopefully the OP will continue to interact here and realize one of the values of this forum are the people with strong opinions even if they don't agree with your point of view.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Woodman and Boss,
I can't say as I blame you. Who needs a bunch of BS for posting what is a obviously, a total win win situation. I would rather you stuck around and posted your thoughts and experiences. I value your opinions! Don't let a couple of rude comments deter you. Maybe in time it will work itself out. Regardless, thanks for posting your Freud story Jeff.
For what it is worth Boss, you are so far out in left field about companies I wonder where you live. They dump their Beta test products on consumers all the time. They don't test everything in the real world. They make changes in manufacturing, they buy different batches of glues, raw materials, their employees change and the product changes with it. Frued might have had an issue with a batch of welds. They don't know they have a problem until Woodman calls in and says I have a issue. The good ones want to know they have an issue, either theirs or ours and they VALUE the feed back. They want our feedback. And in most cases they should damn well be paying us for the feedback.
Hello ever hear of Windows any version 2000, XP, Vista et all? We have to use this crap and find out it does not work with our programs, blows up, goes to blue screen, and needs, thousands of patches every day to keep it working. So what does Micro Slut do, they have a box for us to check and say we had problem, do you want to send in a report? You try to get a fix on a product and you will spend $ on tech lines and hours on the phone call. Probably the worst product ever made in my non Humble opinion.
American car manufactures have destroyed themselves because they dump new products on us that are not road worthy or able to last. I own all Toyotas, they work. My last Ford truck had the rivets in the A frame suspension blow apart on a highway and I damned near rolled it when the whole structure fell off. It was out of warranty, they did nothing, but they built a product that was not designed and properly built. There is no reason a pickup should ever have a frame fall apart into sections. And no I did not off road the thing, it was a street driven road machine only. I maintain my vehicles. I will never own a Ford again, if you can't even build a truck frame and stand behind it then why do business with that?
Excuse me Boss, but I will contact a manufacturer ANY time a product does not meet my expectations and ask for compensation. Their fault my fault I don't care. I am sick and tired of poor quality products and high prices. Let them stand behind THEIR reputation and make it right. In my landscape business, I have been VERY hard on several companies to provide me quality. They respect my opinion, want my criticism and improve their product. If I tell them it does not meet my expectation they replace it and don't ever feel like I have abused or taken advantage of them. They are better for the relationship, it is a WIN WIN situation.
AZMO
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Morgan,
Good post!
-Jerry
Okee Dokee.
FINALLY, I have someone who sees where I'm coming from. Is it good customer service because we get something for free????? Not in my opinion.
Bio
Shameful, isn't it?
"What is one of the easiest ways to do this, increase price."
Well, the more people read this thread, the better for Freud. I'm sure they've won over the OP as well as many of us with his story. They'll make the money back by selling more blades because we now have more of a reason to believe in them and their product.
It's awfully nice to hear from happy customers, not just the unhappy ones.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
You call her a "dumb broad" for not knowing the coffee is hot
Oh, she knew it was hot. Her complaint was that it was too hot. This woman spilled her own coffee in her own lap. The punk at the window didn't pour it on her. Now, thanks to her, McDonalds has a sign in all of the drive-through windows telling people to be careful - because the coffee is hot.
Dumb broad was the nicest thing I could say about her on a public forum.
Lee
Just out of interest... Some facts about the McDonalds Coffee case.
http://www.caoc.com/CA/index.cfm?event=showPage&pg=facts
EDIT: Sorry I see that this was already posted.
Edited 8/11/2008 2:31 pm by Buster2000
Lee, before your reference the McDonalds coffee case, as an example of a plantive who didn't deserve the judgement, you should research the facts.
It is important to understand some points that were not reported in most of the stories about the case. McDonalds coffee was not only hot, it was scalding -- capable of almost instantaneous destruction of skin, flesh and muscle. Here's the whole story.Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when she was severely burned by McDonalds' coffee in February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that was served in a styrofoam cup at the drivethrough window of a local McDonalds.After receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and stopped momentarily so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. (Critics of civil justice, who have pounced on this case, often charge that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was in motion when she spilled the coffee; neither is true.) Liebeck placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled into her lap.The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridementtreatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds refused.During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of this hazard.A McDonalds representative also said during discovery that, based on a consultants advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures. A sruvey conducted by McDonalds lawyers indicated that coffee at local resuraunts was served at 160-degrees or less, (this is the temperature that Bunn comercial coffee makers are designed for). The coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforced a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee.Plaintiffs' expert, a scholar in thermodynamics applied to human skin burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony showed that as the temperature decreases toward 155 degrees, the extent of the burn relative to that temperature decreases exponentially. Thus, if Liebeck's spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.McDonalds asserted that customers buy coffee on their way to work or home, intending to consume it there. However, the companys own research showed that customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while driving. McDonalds also argued that consumers know coffee is hot and that its customers want it that way. The company admitted its customers were unaware that they could suffer third degree burns from the coffee and that a statement on the side of the cup was not a "warning" but a "reminder" since the location of the writing would not warn customers of the hazard.The jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages. This amount was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found Liebeck 20 percent at fault in the spill. The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonalds' coffee sales. Jurors told the Wall Street Journal after the trial that they - like most people when they first hear of the case -- were initially skeptical of Liebeck's claim, but that the evidence they heard at trial convinced them. They were surprised to hear about the prior incidents and the severity of the burns, and they found McDonald's reaction uncaring. Post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the local Albuquerque McDonalds had dropped to 158 degrees.The trial court subsequently reduced the punitive award to $480,000 -- or three times compensatory damages -- even though the judge called McDonalds' conduct reckless, callous and willful.No one will ever know the final ending to this case.The parties eventually entered into a secret settlement which has never been revealed to the public, despite the fact that this was a public case, litigated in public and subjected to extensive media reporting.
Still think the judgment was unfair? Do you think that if the Judge had told President, Vice President, the Franchise Owner, and the lead attorney for McDonalds, that he would decrease the judgment by 25% for each of them willing to pour 20-ounces of 185-degree water on their crotch any of them would have taken him up on it?
Jigs,
I stand corrected. Now we know "The Rest of the Story".........
I was merely using the coffee story and McDonalds to prove the point I was trying to make about companies absorbing cost and not passing it on to consumers.
Cheers,
Lee
Jigs,
Thanks for the info. I am not a McDonalds fan, so I enjoyed the full story. But... your ending was better than good:
Still think the judgment was unfair? Do you think that if the Judge had told President, Vice President, the Franchise Owner, and the lead attorney for McDonalds, that he would decrease the judgment by 25% for each of them willing to pour 20-ounces of 185-degree water on their crotch any of them would have taken him up on it?
-Jerry
Bio,I understand where you are coming from. When the accident occurred, I had no idea what happened. I tightened the dado down extremely tight like I have 100 times before. Nothing was different in my process. I did not know if I installed the shims wrong or if they somehow got pinched or what. I was looking for answers as to why the accident occurred so I could make sure not to let it happen again. I contacted Freud looking for answers and they told me they could not tell me what really happened without seeing the dado. I tried to take pictures up close but my digital camera didn't want to take real close photos that looked very well. On my dime, $26, I sent the blade to Freud looking for answers. I received an email back today from Freud stating that everything looked good as far as craftsmanship and materials. I simply came to the conclusion that if the craftsmanship and materials were ok, then it must have been something I did. I never thought I mounted the dado wrong until Freud told me the material and craftsmanship was fine. After I received the email, I started thinking again how this could have happened. 23/32" has many cutters and shims. Did one of the shims get hung up on the arbor?? Did I tighten a tooth against another?? I still am not 100% sure.Bottom line is, I did not expect Freud to ship me a new blade out and I never asked for that. I was searching for answers. I thought it was a very nice gesture on their part. Besides, I have read here how people have sent items back to LN for repairs and LN has sent a new replacement. What's the difference? I do dream of a world where we can help each other more. Where the almighty dollar doesn't control everything and we do things for people to help, not always for profit. I love to help people and when people do nice things for me, I like to let people know, that's all.Have a great evening,Jeff
I agree it was a noble gesture on the part of Freud, I just wanted to to present the other side of things. I don't think you did anything with a notion of trying to get over on the company or anything, but like I said, what if you called in and they said sorry about your luck, would it then be poor customer service? Would you still come on and say Freud customer service was great, found the problem, it was user error and instead of a free replacement they said, we can ship you a new one out for X dollars.
Ideally, if everyone had honest intentions in their heart, including the consumers and the companies that produce products, situations like this would be the "norm", and we would all have excellent expereinces with the products we buy and the customer service provided, but as the old saying goes, "If IF was a FIFTH we would ALL be drunk right now!" :)
Bio
Let me see if I got this right. No matter what Freud reps do, they are wrong. Right?
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Let's just recap this whole thing by making this observation: If you call Freud with anything even hinting of a complaint they'll ship you new product.
Let the games begin.
Have fun ya'll.
Boss , Welcome to the Curmudgeon club .
dusty
Boss , Welcome to the Curmudgeon club
Dusty,
I think Boss owns the Curmudgeon Club ;)
Not a bad place, actually. Been there a few times myself.
Cheers,
Lee
Ha, who would have ever thought this would make it to almost 100 messages. Ironically, I was sitting here re-reading this entire thing and then some of the flame throwing on other companies like Delta and it has left me to ponder....WHAT IS GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE?
Bio
Bio,
Well, when I read post #2 (yours), I had no doubt that it would climb fast. Good customer service definined in four words: makes the customer happy.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I expected to stir up a few things, but I did not intend for it to be an insult to the op. I think some took it a little to far with the name calling, but I am also glad that some started to see what I was originally asking. I like your definition of good customer service.
I didn't read it as an unsult, rather a start of a lively debate. I like it when people speak their mind (though there are limits). Take Don Cherry or Neil McRae, two Canadian sports personalities. They state their opinions. They say that so and so is overpaid and that they need to brought down a level. When I hear that, it forces me to think and establish where I stand.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Ha, remember, if you don't stand for something you will fall for ANYTHING!!!!!!
Hadn't heard of that one - I'll try to remember that one. I like this one: "What we are never changes - who we are never stops changing." Author unknown.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
For what it is worth I have a frued dado set and have a small chip on one tooth. My fault, I bumped it on the TS, and I won't send it in for a 'FREEBIE'. I will send it in when it needs sharpening and get a new tooth. However if the whole tooth had fallen off at the weld line, it would be sent in and I would expect a new one. If they built an indexing pin into the dado blades, or a bushing with indexes they could avoid this issue. The won't change the design unless they know it happens and how often.
So Boss, the games have been going on since Wilma bought Fred a Dino steak that was to tough to chew. So your choice, play or sit on the sidelines. Honestly if you play you will be helping Freud and others. They need us grumps (discriminating consumers ) to use, abuse, or whatever to their product and let them know about it. As I said before they should pay us for the testing!
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If something happens to a tool that shouldn't because of an obvious flaw or manufacturing defect I have no problem sending it back for a replacement or a refund. But I don't do this if I fouled something up due to my own lack of knowledge or carelessness.
Agreed, as you can tell from my post I follow the same rule, but.... with this followup.
Contact them regardless. Don't ask for a replacement or expect one. But by all means, even if you damaged the product and it is 100% your own fault, call them. Good companies like to see their product and observe the failure. They want your feed back and the chance to verify how the product failed. Done correctly they recogize you as a customer who cares about their product, and value your opinion. If they decide to replace it, say thanks, if they don't, say thanks also! In my not so humble opinion it is always rude to refuse a gift. Likewise it is good manners to return a favor.
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This is a good advice. For example, helmet manufacturers always want to see how their products worked in action. I know that many cycling helmet manufacturers used to offer free replacement of crashed helmets so that they could study what happened in the impact. It's probably important that tool manufactures get feedback on how their customers are using or misusing their products as well.
Hi Boss:
But I don't do this if I fouled something up due to my own lack of knowledge or carelessness.
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Since you seem to be omniscient and totally safe the situation must never have occurred ;-). So neither we nor you can know what you might do if you ever made an error ;-).
Best regards,
Joe
You should have been told to pound sand. Next time I buy a Freud product I'll rest easy knowing that they're making up for guys like you with the price they charge me.
PanBroil,Thank-you for buying a lot of their product. I have some other stuff I would like to send back and I am sure with all the things you are buying it should cover my costs. Considering I did not ask them for ANYTHING, they could have told me to "pound sand" and I would have been fine with it. I see you have been around knots for about a year. Let me give you a little advise. People here are EXTREMELY intelligent, and when you slam a poster with a two sentence comment, you lose all your credibility and they don't forget that here. You make up for my dado blade that they sent me for free, give me a break. What did you expect to accomplish with your comment? Did it just make you feel better? I would be very cautious in the future about posting a comment that has no merit and is just a blast from the peanut gallery. I am just very glad I did not embarrass myself here on knots with an ignorant comment like you have.
Thanks for the laugh.
Jeff,
I have been following this thread with interest. I recently had a computer meltdown that required some major surgery and grief. Among the software that I needed to replace was Cutlist. After several days of back and forth with Cutlist customer support, they resolved the issue by upgrading me to a newer version. As of 10:30 this morning, my Cutlist program is back up and running. Every step of the way in working with their CS was positive and professional. Was it their fault that my computer got fried? No. Did I ask for an upgrade? No. Am I impressed with their customer support? Yes. Does their customer support reflect positively on their great software program? Yes. Will I recommend Cutlist to other woodworkers? You bet!
Anyhow, I am pleased that you had a positive experience with Freud. I have run into the regional Freud sales rep several times at my local hardware store and have enjoyed talking with him. Charles M. certainly brings good comments and info into the Knots forum. All in all, a good day for Freud. Also, for the most part, a rather civil and on track discussion.
Best!
-Jerry
Jerry, have you seen Charles M. in the last couple of months? I haven't seen him post for a long time, and I dropped him an email a couple weeks ago, haven't heard back. Extremely unusual, has me a bit concerned.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie,
The visitors log shows his last visit as Aug 8th. I bet he is on vacation.
Best!
-Jerry
Could Charles possibly be involved with the big show in Atlanta ?
Maybe! We'll get Sarge to track him down and give him a hard time, eh?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Lawdy sakes but some folks can be right cynical. Anyhow all's well that ends well. The Taliban have ridden off into the sunset and I note that Stella Liebeck is not the only danged Kook in Albuquerque, New Noo Mexico.Philip Marcou
I think he posted somewhere else since Aug. 8 and may very well be on vacation before school starts as he will most likely be at IWF during the show. Freud doesn't take long to set up before the show as they have not major machines to assemble and they have a good sized crew to work the Show.
I will have a peek on Monday though as I expect he will be there..
Sarge..
Thanks, Sarge, say "Hi" for me.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Guys, calm down, I posted the original thing just to provide a different take on the situation. We were having fun last night with the whole thing and there was NO disrespect presented. We had fun, we presented different sides and at the end of the night we all got a laugh and learn a valuable lesson in safety. Let's be nice....
Bio
Jeff,
Thanks for posting.
I read and thought maybe Freud might have wanted to see the blade to determine if there just might be anything in the way of a design flaw that may have been the cause? Maybe even looked to see if there may be a way to prevent this from happening to someone else? Perhaps they wanted results/experiences from the real world?
Who knows, maybe they did find something and we may see a change or modification that will make their dado sets even better than they already are.
I guess the bottom line to me is that they took the time for a reason and no amount of hypothisis will amount to more than just that, guessing. Who knows maybe through all this it may have actually saved Freud and its customers money in the long run.
If their goal was to was to capture good PR through all this then they wasted their time on this one with me. I'm already in the fold so to speak. I have several of their products and without question I will continue to be a happy customer. This incident simply reinforces my original decision to purchase their products.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Just a suggestion, having nothing to do with customer service, name-calling, or any of that.
When you install the dado set on the arbor, run the nut up snug by hand first. Then when you apply torque with the wrench, the nut should seat firmly with very little rotation. If it seems to take more rotation than normal, or feel even a little bit springy (is that a word?), back the nut off and check that you have the blade set and shims installed and positioned correctly.
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