I’m building a frame & panel blanket chest and the prototype is nearly finished. I’m anticipating the finishing and assembly process. I would prefer to finish much of the frame before glue-up, but am worried about protecting the mortise & tenon joints from whatever finishing steps that I’ll undertake (the frame will likely be cherry with birch, maple, or white oak plywood panels finished separately).
The finishing scenario for the frame could include:
1. A diluted shellac wash to seal the wood (necessary on cherry?). How about Waterlox?
2. Tung oil, alkyd or polyurethane varnish, Japan drier, and mineral spirits wipe-on.
I can wrap the tenons with painter’s tape, but how about the mortises? I’d welcome advice on the do’s and don’ts of the process. This is my first attempt at frame & panel joinery and I don’t want to inadvertently compromise the final glue-up with contaminated joints that won’t take glue (Titebond Extreme).
Many thanks in advance.
Replies
You have answered all of your own questions. No glue an anything being glued, painters tape is fine.
A seal on the cherry is a good idea if you don't like the splotchies, personally I like the look because it makes the piece "move" when seen from different angles. But that is a personal preference.
I would forgo the oak and cherry mix, go with the birch or maple/cherry combo.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
A seal on the cherry is a good idea if you don't like the splotchies, personally I like the look because it makes the piece "move" when seen from different angles. But that is a personal preference.
A TRUE LOVER OF WOOD FOR WHAT IT IS AND SHOULD BE LEFT THAT WAY! You get my vote!
Edited 4/21/2008 10:56 am by WillGeorge
Both you and Terry Lee advised against a cherry/oak combo for the frame and panel construct. You both thought birch or maple panels would be ok. If you had other choices for the panels what might you consider?Since I'm on a major woodworking curve I have to ask why? I understand that cherry, maple, and birch are tighter grained and the oaks are more open grain. Is that the reason or are there other factors to consider? When working with contrasting wood species are there some general guidelines on what works (or doesn't work) with what? These hardwoods are too expensive to do a lot of trial and error combos. I'm sure experience helps, but I'm a long way from that.On the same thought I could envision some interesting effects if I were to choose rotary sawn vs. flat sawn plywood for the panels. Albeit, the "natural" grain pattern is lost in the former, but it imparts a certain panel to panel uniformity. Is that taboo? Maybe I should look for book matched panels for this project.Does anyone have any experience with Waterlox as a finishing agent?Thanks for the advice.
Mixing lumber species in this case is purely for the asthetics. Some lumbers go together "artistically" Maple/Black Walnut, Maple-Birch/Cherry. IMHO putting Oak/Maple together is like topping a strawberry pie w/ dill pickel slices(just doesn't work)Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce ,
Wait a minute , what about the new pickle flavored popsicles ?
Some folks may like the sundae with pickle juice on top , yuk !
dusty
Waterlox is an excellent finish. It's on the dark side, so it might make a light wood like maple too dark for your tastes.
-Steve
I just got some Waterlox and I'm gonna try it on a piece of birch plywood scrap. I'm attracted to its ease of application without having to spend days on end wiping and wiping.I hope to keep the panels fairly light, but not necessarily snow white. It seems that just about any oil based finish imparts that characteristic amber hue to varying degrees. Does dilution with gum turpentine or mineral spirits help to tone down the amber without compromising the protective benefits of the oil?I'm really new to this so I welcome any suggestions. Maybe I should just use dewaxed shellac (SealCoat) or look to see if there are some varnishes (water based?) out there that have less hue than the oils.
Not to get in Steve's way because he's a guru on finishing as far as I'm concerned.....
If you get FW, there was an article in this month's issue about a new finish made from whey proteins. I think they were based in Vermont. Anyway, the review said that this produced virtually no yellow coloring. With this old brain of mine I can't remember the brand.
But it's worth a look.
I found the product you're referring to online. This may be worth a try; only $14/pint or $20/quart purchased directly from them. Here's their link:<http://www.vermontnaturalcoatings.com/>
THAT'S the one! Good on you.
Dilution wouldn't really help. The amount of color is a function of the film thickness. You'd have to apply more of the diluted stuff to achieve the same film thickness, and so you'd end up with the same total amount of varnish and therefore the same color.
There is a very wide range of varnishes, with a corresponding wide range of colors. Waterborne varnishes are typically the palest, but also often have a very slight bluish tint, which can make the wood look "cold" unless you apply something else like shellac first. Waterlox is a very dark, slightly orangeish varnish, so isn't the best choice if you want to keep things light. Other than reading about it, I don't know anything about the new Vermont "milk varnish."
-Steve
You can tape the mortises, too. Cover the mortise with a strip of blue tape, then use an X-Acto knife to trim it so that it's only about 1/16" larger than the mortise all around. This area will be covered by the shoulders of the tenon, so it doesn't matter that it won't receive any finish.
-Steve
I agree with the previous posts. Cherry and oak really don't lend themselves to being combined. Cherry and maple probably are the most popular. If you are going to prefinish, I would use the green painter's tape and not the blue. The green is meant for stronger solvents and you can feel a little safer. You can get the green at any auto paint supply. We use the green on cars with great success.
I'm going to take a contrarian view. I would strongly advise against trying to pre-finish the frames before glue up. You would have to have extremely controlled process for making the M & T joints so that they would come together so that not a bit of sanding or planing were needed to make the surfaces flush with each other.
To get an idea of this take a sheet of paper from your printer. Put it on a flat surface and run your finger over the edge. Feel the difference in level? Pretty obvious isn't it. If you have 20 lb. paper, that the difference in height is less than 1/256th of an inch. (about .0038") For me that's a pretty tough tolerance to maintain.
Finishing the panels is a different story. There it makes a lot of sense to prefinish, or at least partially prefinish with stain or one coat of the top coat. That way, which the humidity is low, the panel won't reveal it's tan lines.
Steve,I could not agree with you more. I never prefinish anything unless it is a black lacquer panel for that black lacquer and cherry top look that I make sometimes. My doors fit a lot better since I got the Domino, but you still have to sand the seam where the stiles and rails come together.
I spray precat lacquer on just about everything so prefinishing would not be practical or wise for my situation.
Here's yet another technique, one I commonly use Steve. The panels as you say are best pre-finished before assemly, or as I normally do, part finished ready for a final coat. The framing material I usually part finish up to the same stage as the panel on the inside edges, ie, up to the penultimate coat. This leaves the outside edge and both faces of the frame parts untouched.
Clean up the outside edge of the frame and both faces and mask off the part finished bits. Apply the finish up to the same stage as the masked off parts. Remove the masking and apply the final coat all over. I mostly spray finish, and this generally works well.
If I'm hand finishing I normally polish all the bits I described as part finished in the bit above to a full finish. Then there's just a bit of blending to do on the corners of the faces of the frame where they meet the pre-finished inside edge. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
j ,
Glue the whole thing up , what will you gain if you pre finish ?
you will eliminate the chance of errors by finishing after glue up .
I have never prefinished before assembly , occasional panel stained before glue up if it will be a different color then the frame .
good luck dusty
In FWW # 129 March/April 1998,(pg. 38-43) John McAlevey has a fine article on producing a chest very similar to what you describe.
I do not recall if he talked at length about the finish, but i seem to remember his advice on the finish/glue up debate. I think he elected to finish the maple panels outside the frame and pin them in the middle with a small dowel, thus allowing the expansion travel. Since the panels wouldn't see glue anyway, no sense in trying to swab finish into the tight corners.
Im not familiar with Titebond Extreme, but Titebond Extend may be the ticket for gluing up those panels.
If i find that article i'll try to send the link.
Jeff
Bingo,
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ProjectsAndDesign/ProjectsAndDesignPDF.aspx?id=2517
Thanks for the validation. This is exactly the article that I'm working from. The author is vague on the finishing details other than to say that the maple panels were prefinised with linseed oil and gum mineral spirits.Perhaps he then assembled and glued the respective frame and panel (front, back, both ends, and top) and finished them individually.
The assembly photo in his article seems to depict this as it looks pretty well finished at that point. Maybe a final wipe down to catch any exterior areas that needed a touch up?Thanks again for your help.
That is a very nice design. Not your average blanket chest. I have thought of making a couple with that design in mind and just have never gotten to it. Now that my thoughts are stirred again about them, perhaps i will move on it, so.....thanks back to ya!I found a site for that author by the way. It lists methods of contact, so perhaps you could get the info your seeking direct from the source. It also has his bio and gallery on it.Have a blast making the chests, they look like they will be fun and present some interesting challenges. Kudos to you for the common sense to build a prototype first.http://www.johnmcalevey.com/contact.html
Thanks for the link. I'll contact the author.I'm still playing with some of the joinery specifics for the fir/poplar/birch plywood prototype. I'm pretty comfortable with cutting the tenons on the table saw using a homemade tenon jig. I'm also very pleased with a nifty mortising jig design from a fellow woodworker.http://thecraftsmanspath.com/2007/09/25/loose-tenon-joinery-budget-alternative-festool-domino/I'm going to have a go at cutting the grooves in the legs and 3/4" rails with a stacked dado set (2 blades and a 1/16" chipper for a 5/16" overall cut). I think the board to board consistency will be better than what I've done so far with a plunge router and a bunch of workbench mounted spacers. I could then mill all of those cuts at one time with a single setup. This will be my first attempt at using a dado set and I've got to give serious thought to any safety issues.
I looked around my shop last night and found a sample joint i cut a while ago when i was thinking of making that design. I'll enclose a couple shots i took today. The tenons were cut with a dado head, I cut the middle out via my band saw and fence to slice down to the shoulder, then coped the waste out with a saw. I pared the rest away with a bench chisel. I stabbed the mortises with my mortiser. I left the tennons longer than they should be in the legs, i more than likely would make them a little closer to the outside of the leg in production but being mindful of leaving enough for the chamfer. They were going to be wedged, and i must not have gotten around to cutting the kerf.As you are building the prototype, you should be able to work out your size, fits, and order of steps (sizing your grooves to the panels or the visa versa). Leave a little clearance. As far as the safety goes, a little common sense goes a long long way. If it doesn't seem right, or you find yourself white knuckled and hanging on, stop and think it out.
Nice pictures. I see what a nice, clean job a mortiser can do. I liked the appearance of the through tenon on Mr. McAlevey's original design. Earlier on I decided not to attempt a single or double through tenon because it is just beyond my level of expertise (and equipment) at this time. I'm plunge routing the mortises about 1" deep and simply rounding over the tenon shoulders with a rasp to fit each tenon to its respective mortise.I've been rethinking my first dado strategy. Since I'm only using 1/2" plywood panels I think it might be better to cut a roughly 1/4" deep x 3/8" wide rabbet in a piece of scrap and save that as a saw setup pattern. Then I can size the grooves in the rails and legs based on that pattern. Having done that then all panels, legs, and rails can be cut at one time with a "single" setup for better consistency.
I have just completed a chest inspired by John Mcalevey's design. My first attempt at building furniture so it was for me quite a challenge but a joy to build. I finished with 2 coats of Zinsser Seal coat and 3 coats of General Finishes wipe on varnish.
http://picasaweb.google.com/rpalmeter/EmmaSToyBox
You did a really superb job and congratulations. I'm now working my way through a prototype design and, as you said, learning as you go.Did you use maple plywood for your panels or glued up panels from 3/4" stock? Just curious because I'm planning to use the plywood version for convenience. Again, well done and congratulations.Jeff
Thanks Jeff. I glued up 3/4 soft maple for the panels. I considered ply for the panels but found the maple when shopping for ply. Looks like you are well on the way with the legs / styles milled and ready.
Robert
Do you have a catalog # for the soft closers from Lee Valley that you used on Emma's chest? I'd like to order a few for my upcoming projects. I used my new stacked Dado set today to rabbet all of the panels on the protoype. I've never used a Dado, but really like the capabilities they offer. I'm going to try cutting a few tenons instead of using my tenoning jig. Here's a few pics of my fir/birch prototype taken today. I think that I'm about confident enough to embark on making two of these for my married kids.
The product # for the lid support is 00t0210 Get 2 the lid is too heavy fo 1.They have another stay that looks good also. #00u0601
The hinges are # 00d0303 Pricey but very nice hinge. I used 2 but thinking 3 would be better and may add the 3rd.
Prototypes look like you are ready to go.
Good luck, Robert
Nice work, I love the contrast of the Maple and Cherry.I noticed the change from the leather strap to a lid stay. Probably a good move. Is it a shock closer? and if so, from white chapel? I had visions of slammed fingers without one, that's gotta be a pretty hefty lid.All this talk about that style chest has got me motivated. Hmm..perhaps a trip to West Penn this weekend for some Cherry and Maple.
Thanks, The soft closer came from the Lee Valley hardware catalog. The lid is too heavy for the closer so I will order and install second one on the left side. Mommie opens and closes for the little one until she gets a little bigger.
I built a chest similar to that a couple years ago for my daughter. Except, I used all red oak and had 3 panels on the front, 3 panels on the back, 3 panels on the top and 1 panel on each end. Turned out pretty nice if I do say so myself. ;^)Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
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