OK, not really *without* glue, but not counting on it adhering well to my stock.
I’m making a toy chest, and the top is frame and panel. The frame is pau ferro, which my wood book tells me usually refers to one of three different species; the appearance seems to most match brazilian rosewood, but the price does not (I paid only $13/bf). In any case, it’s quite hard and beautiful, but it’s also oily and I’m concerned about glue adhesion.
I was originally going to M&T, but even pinned, there’s reliance on the glue’s adhesion to the stock. Wedged also requires good glue adhesion (wedges to stock).
Then I wondered about mitering, using biscuits. But there’s even more reliance on the glue in this case.
So my question boils down to: What’s the best way to do stiles and rails when your stock doesn’t glue well?
Replies
vulcan666,
Use acetone to wipe out the mortise and the tenon before assembly. This will help. If you pin the joint that should be more than sufficient.
J.P.
Thanks for the acetone idea. I'll try it on some scrap from my board and see if it increases adhesion!
Here in Japan (sorry I have to preface my replies with "here in Japan" but things are done a bit differently here so it should be noted) there is a joint they use with the shoji and fusuma doors. Due to the fact that the frame has to be taken apart to replace the paper every so often the frame needs to come apart with some ease while holding together to complete it's purpose of holding the door together. The joint is called (close translation) a gooseneck joint. It's an arrow shaped tenon (on the rail) with the point squared. Fits into the mortise and when the door is opened the "tangs" of the arrow stop the tenon from sliding out. I've made a similar version but with the arrow in the opposite direction. In other words a "deep necked" dovetail. Not sure how long my version will last, a couple of years is all the proof I have but so far so good. The Japanese version has years and years of use while still holding together without glue, as seen in the doors of old houses here. For your use this may not work because this is an open tenon.
Another joint the professional (tateguya-san) door maker will use is a slightly thicker tenon in the middle to fit into a slightly wider mortise in the middle. The idea is when the tenon is inserted into the mortise it compresses and then expands back to its original size thus locking in place without glue. Problem with this is the level of skill required to make the tolerances close enough to make it work correctly. This is a closed tenon
Option #3, wooden pins with dried tenons, after insertion the tenons expand as they absorb moisture. This requires close but not as close a tolerance as the above.
good luck
Very interesting. I'll try to see if I can see more information on those joints. At the book store I saw a volume on Japanese joinery, I think I'll go check it out.
Thanks!
If the acetone test does not work,although I believe it will, draw peg the tenon.After making the mortise and tenon, remove the tenon,bore a hole for the dowel or peg.Then replace the tenon, mark the tenon with the same brad point bit you bored with. Remove tenon, bore hole about 1/32" to 1/16" closer to the edge of the mortise. Put a point on the dowel ,replace tenon.Insert dowel with a bit of glue,( not really neccessary for glue)tap the dowel in.The dowel will bend a bit and pull the tenon tighter than a bulls #$%.Cut the excess dowel off the back side. You can leave the show face flush,or leave it proud. If you want ,you can use square stock for the peg. Whittle a bit round ,drive the peg,cut the square portion proud of the stile.You can bevel the square peg if you like with a sharp chisel.Lots of old furniture,window sash and even houses were built with draw pegs. This method requires no glue and will outlast me and you.
mike
I wondered about drawboring, but I'm not sure I have the skill to do it right. Thank you for the idea, maybe I'll give it a try. I guess the worst that could happen is, I'm trying to put the pin through and I split my tenon, losing a piece of stock.
In another thread on drawboring, someone mentioned an alignment pin. I'll do some reading and maybe I'll give this a shot.
Learn by doing, eh? Thanks!
You won't split the tenon.the tenon can't split inside of the mortise. Try it on scrap first,then you will see how the peg draws up the rail to the stile.
mike
It will glue well if you use System 3 clear epoxy.
BUT, be warned that some people are extremely allergic to Bolivian Rosewood (Pau Ferro). Do NOT breathe the dust or let it get on your skin. With me, it's just like getting a bad case of poison ivy. The more you're exposed, the worse it gets.
I personally would not use that species for a toy chest.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
I'll be careful with it, whichever species it is. As I said, I rather doubt it's Brazilian Rosewood, because I only paid $12.80/bf. Isn't BR a bit pricier?
As to its use in a toy chest, with a water-impermeable finish, it's hard to think it'll be dangerous to my girls. The reading I've done indicates the danger time for problematic woods is during machining and working, not in finished pieces. Have I misunderstood this?
Brazilian Rosewood is MUCH more expensive than Bolivian Rosewood. Pau Ferro, Morado, Bolivian Rosewood --- all different names for the same basic tree. There are 3 or 4 technically different species that are almost indistinguishable. All are extreme allergins for about 10% of the populace.
Brazilian Rosewood is on the import ban list. Only stump wood, 2nd growth, and costal growth can be legally imported.
Bazilian Rosewood has no allergic effect on me and Cocobolo (another true Rosewood) only has slight effect.
I continue working with Bolivian Rosewood but only with great precautions.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Wipe the parts with a solvent first and you are unlikely to have a problem. A Draw Bored Tennon does not need glue. I just rebuilt a set of 100+ year old shutters that were hanging outside in New Orleans their whole life. The joinery was drawbored and tight as the day it was built. Absolutely amazing. Oh, and there was no glue used either. (although I did use glue when I reassembled)
Mike
OK, I'm going to bite the bullet. JP, Mike4244, mudman, I'm going to wipe with acetone [EDIT: not acetate, heh], dry, then drawbore (with glue). So I'm going to practice on some scraps and get this drawbore technique down. Hey, it's a good excuse to buy a doweling jig (I want to use wood from elsewhere in the chest for the pins, to unify the style; the end grain in the pins will match the exposed endgrain of the dovetails on the front and sides of the box).
Good thing is, this isn't leaving my home, so if it starts to deteriorate I won't have an upset customer. :)
I'm going to continue to assume that it's safe to use the pau ferro for the frame of the toy chest top; with a waterlox or poly finish, it's hard to see how any toxins could get to my girls. I will of course use good dust collection, gloves and a mask while working the wood. I'm not that keen on itching.
Thanks everyone, I feel I've settled on a good approach here.
Edited 11/8/2005 3:47 pm ET by vulcan666
I am sure you will have no problems. I've used teak in a few projects (I have an infatuation with teak) and no call backs yet. You mention buying a doweling jig to draw bore a tennon. I am not sure if we are on the same page. Draw Boring is where a hole is drilled through the tennon and the side of the mortice, but the holes are offset a hair (maybe a bit over 32nd) . When the joint is assembled driving the pin will force the joint tight. The pin actually deforms itself to pass through and will stay put forever. Personally I would even bother draw boring it, I'd just add the dowel for effect.
Mike
Hmm, maybe "doweling jig" is the wrong term. Maybe that's one of those things with a hole or several in it, for guiding a hand drill to make holes at a precise angle? I don't mean that, I meant, what one buys in order to make dowels (pins) from hardwood stock. If I don't find a better way, I figured to just cut square to width and use roundovers on a router four times to make my rounds.
I think I understand how to do the drawboring. I've done pinned M&T, and as I understand it, drawboring is simply offsetting the hole in the tenon by 1/32" to 1/64", so the insertion of the pin naturally draws the joint tight.
Sorry if I was being patroning. The cutters are called dowel cutters or plug cutters. I have used plug cutters and would imagine that a dowel cutter would be difficult to use. A lathe is best.
Mike
Patronizing? No way, I used the wrong term and you tried to help me not screw up my project! Thanks to you I looked it up and now I know what a doweling jig really is -- and it's clearly not what I need. Correct use of terminology is important when words are most of how we communicate about this highly technical craft.
I see that Lee Valley sells "dowel cutters"; for my 2 3/8" by 3/4" rails and stiles, I think a 3/8" pin would be adequate. I can get the dowel cutter for $20, and the adapters to attach the wood to my drill for under $10. I don't think I'd enjoy trying to make a 2' dowel, but I'm pretty sure I can crank out the 2" or so I'll need for each pin.
Patronizing? I very much appreciate the spirit in which the apology is offered, but none is necessary. I didn't think you were being patronizing, just helpful, and all I have to say is "thank you."
One way to do that is to use a dowel plate. The better ones have a slight taper and cut a very clean and precise dowel. I have one from Lie-Nielsen and it works very well. I used it to make oak dowels to pin the M&T end frames for a workbench. The dowels came out slightly wavey but precisely dimensioned.
-robert
Any guidance on dowel plates versus dowel cutters, like those Lee Valley sells?
I have no experience with dowel cutters, and cannot compare them. My guess is the cutters might make more perfect looking product -- what I achieved was not perfectly straight, but then I didn't need it to be to pin M&T joints.
Mainly I liked the simplicity of the dowel plate concept, and trust LN implicitly to "do it right." Also, it was a lot of fun bashing slightly oversize dowels through the thing ;-).
-robert
Vulcan,
For pinning a mortise and tenon joint, you don't need to make dowels. Just cut square stock the same size as the hole you will be drilling (1/4" hole, 1/4" square pegs) and with your pocket knife, knock the corners back a half inch or so, to ease starting into the hole. Then drive 'em in. If the pegs aren't oversize, they will not split the frame. Put your hole about 3/16-1/4" from the edge of the tenon shoulder.
Personally, I'd use through tenons, and wedge them, to avoid using glue. If you are feeling real catty, you can "fox wedge" blind tenons, so they don't show, but it takes a little practice to get the depth of the mortise, the flare of the mortise ends, and the length of the wedges all correct. Saw this technique used on a set of Irish country Chippendale chairs, most of the joints (the ones that were right!) were still tight after a century and a half.
Regards,
Ray
Miller Dowels fit tight - I am pretty sure they can work w/o glue (I've tested doweled joints w/o glue that I could not distinguish from glued joints.
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