I just went to the festool owners group website and is says it’s down till further notice. Anybody know what’s up?
Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Replies
Interesting, the link to fog on Festools page is gone now.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
Well it looks like Festool is going after the Site and Matt who runs it. I got an E-mail from Matt the sponsor, and it indicated they were going after him for the domain. It's sad it was a great effort by Matt and he is to be comended. I'm sure with their deep pockets and lawyers they will outlast him and win. They will take over and provide a less of a product than he did. It's a shame they did not work with Matt to provide a good product. I gained a great wealth of info from the site on Festool. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Here's the body of Matthew's e-mail. I would encourage those who care, to e-mail the folks listed at the end of the message.Dear Festool Members,
I have bad news.You have been great members of the Festool Owners Group, and it has been my pleasure to build a forum that provides thousands of people with a unique space to discuss and promote Festool tools.
As members, you know that I have worked tirelessly to build a site that helps current and potential Festool customers, Festool dealers, and Festool as a company. Many of you have used the forum to
connect with others, learn about the tools, and create a wonderful community of knowledge and support. Also, the Festool Owners Group has led to increased sales for Festool. Knowing that my “little
forum” has been beneficial to customers as well as the company makes me very proud!Festool has filed a trademark violation claim against the Festool Owners Group. For the past couple of weeks, I have spent many stressful hours communicating with Christian Oltzscher, Martin Johnson,
and the lawyer hired by Festool. I had hoped Festool might change course and negotiate an agreement with me instead of filing a trademark violation claim. However, on 7/2/08 I received a copy of Festool's
trademark claim, registered with the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). The remedy Festool seeks is that I transfer the Festool Owners Group domain to them, based on the following grounds:
(1) The domain festoolownersgroup.com is confusingly similar to the Festool trademark; AND
(2) I have no rights or legitimate interests in the festoolownersgroup.com domain; AND
(3) I registered and am using the domain in bad faith.To win a WIPO complaint, Festool must prove ALL THREE of the above conditions.It is my opinion that the above "grounds" do not describe the Festool Owners Group. The forum has always been managed with good will towards Festool, and has been a benefit to Festool, Festool customers,
and Festool dealers. It is my opinion that a WIPO panel would decide in favor of the forum. However, proving my case would take many hours of legal representation to file and support a WIPO counterclaim.
I'm not sure I have the resources for that effort. Except for a small amount of money that has come from donations, the Festool Owners Group has been maintained entirely by my private funds, and I have already
lost money on the venture.The Festool Owners Group has always been an extension of my woodworking hobby. It was exciting and fun for me to build it and see it grow, and it always made me happy to see how many people get pleasure
from the forum. It never occurred to me that the Festool Owners Group could ever be accused of "ill will" towards Festool.For my own protection, I have had to shut down the Festool Owners Group. It will remain down until I get a better understanding of the legalities of what I'm facing, or until I am able to resolve the situation amicably
with Festool.My apologies for any inconvenience this causes, but I trust that you all understand my situation.If you wish to know more about the trademark violation Festool has filed against the forum, write to the following people:
Martin Johnson, [email protected]
Christian Oltzscher, [email protected]
Would you have Matthew's email addy? I would like to send him a copy of my email to Festool.Thanks,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
[email protected]
It might have been the mixing of commercial enterprise with the forum that was problematic. He was using their name and trademark for the fog store.
The large donations may have seemed too commercial also. Maybe if he removed the revenue generating aspects they would be amenable to not going after the forum.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
I sent an E-mail with concerns to Festool. Here is the response I got a few moments ago.
Dear Concerned Festool Owners Group Members,
First we would like to thank you for the emails and phone calls expressing your concern over the inaccessibility of the Festool Owners Group. Like you, we were both surprised and disappointed that the administrator decided to take it offline. Some of you have expressed confusion, and have asked us for some clarification. While we have been able to respond directly to some of you, it makes more sense to respond to everyone at the same time. We would like to alleviate any confusion and misinformation floating around on the bulletin boards, as we are as concerned as you are about what has happened. While we don’t fully understand the actions taken by the FOG administrator, we can share what we do know:
Festool support of the Festool Owners Group (FOG)
1. Festool has always been supportive of the FOG, but more importantly it’s members.
2. At no time has Festool ever asked that it be taken down.
3. Festool has promoted the FOG on our website, and in our newsletter “SysNotes”, driving substantial new traffic, content, and users to the group
4. Festool has donated tools for contests and give-a-ways that encourage dialogue and keep the FOG an interesting site for people to come and enjoy
5. Festool employees contribute on a regular basis trying to answer questions or clarify issues that customers are experiencing
6. Festool has encouraged open dialog on the forum, and has worked with the administrator to make the FOG an enjoyable resource for owners and those just learning about Festool
While the FOG is an independent entity, we have always valued its members, and we feel that the support we have provided over the years shows our commitment to the user group. We have been both surprised and a bit disheartened that anyone would suggest that we are not supportive or that we would want to shut it down. Our intent has been and will always be to support activities that are in the best interests of our customers.
What action Festool took regarding the domain name “Festoolownersgroup.com”
1. Festool has a claim to the “Festool” trademark, and a legal obligation to manage the brand name.
2. Festool only asked that the legal rights to the domain name “Festoolownersgroup.com” be transferred to Festool, and never requested that the content or the website itself be transferred.
3. Festool offered to pay for the transfer fees to alleviate any financial burden associated with the transfer.
4. Festool offered to allow the FOG to continue to use the domain name and continue operations without requesting any money or fees.
5. Festool was willing to host or pay hosting fees on behalf of the site to alleviate any financial burden associated with running it.
6. The administrator communicated that they would not transfer the domain name, which prompted the following action:
a. Festool submitted a filing to WIPO asking for a ruling on the issue
b. WIPO is the World Intellectual Property Organization, and is an arbitration body that handles disputes regarding domain name usage
c. There is no current lawsuit, nor has there been a lawsuit asking that the FOG be shut down, and we have been perplexed by this claim.
Festool USA continues to support and encourage the active communication between owners, those considering our tools, and the Festool USA team. Together we have been able to create an experience that is unique in the woodworking industry. While the decision to remove or post the FOG is in the current FOG administrators hands, we would hope that they would continue to make it available to you.
Thank you for taking the time to contact us, and for allowing us to share our thoughts on the subject.
Best regards,
Martin Johnson Christian Oltzscher
Vice President C.E.O.
Festool USA Brand Management Festool USA
Martin Johnson
_________________________
Festool USA
Tooltechnic Systems, LLC
400 N. Enterprise Blvd.
Lebanon, IN 46052
Title Vice President
Dept. Brand Marketing
Phone (765) 482-4500 x 60126
Fax (765) 483-0903
E-Mail [email protected]
Web http://www.festoolusa.com
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Very interesting, quite the different versions. I would love to see the filing itself. I went to the WIPO website but could not find anything on it other than Festools trademark registration from years ago.
It seems like a pretty sweet deal Festool is offering, all expeses paid for the domain transfer and payment of all hosting fees with no claim to the content or forum.
Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Yep, there are two sides to every conflict. I hope they work the differences out and the site is back soon. Festool envokes strong feelings, both positive and negative. I still love their stuff though. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Festool's stated position makes sense. Unless a company can demonstrate to a court's satisfaction that they have "actively protected" their trademarks, they can very quickly lose them.
-Steve
Steve, you are absolutely right. Festools version makes sense, and it sounds as though the administrator is more confused than anything. I'll bet it gets worked out.J
Pretty lively discussion going on at sawmill creek. Post #75 seems like a pretty astute summation. Link.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Acually, I see the E-mail response a little differently. True they want the rights to the domain name, but they do own the name festool. They (in appearance) want the site to continue as is with current leadership. I do hope they can come to a middle ground, but in the end, they own the name. They have the right to defend that ownership. That does not change my admiration for all the work that Matt has done with the site. I hope he can keep it up. Tough situation. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I too think Festools position was entirely reasonable. It appears the sticking point is the amount of money Matt wants for the domain name. Hopefully they will be able to negotiate a settlement both parties can live with. It appears in retrospect that the use of Festool and owners in the name may have been an unfortunate choice.
If they can't come to terms it looks like everyone will lose, Matt, Festool and the contributors to the forum. That would be a shame.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
I think people are generally unaware of what can happen when a company fails to protect its trademarks. The courts have generally interpreted even seemingly minor laxity in trademark enforcement as grounds for losing trademark protection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark
At face value, the corporations end up looking like bad guys, but the courts are pretty much forcing their hand.
-Steve
You're preaching to the choir here, I think Festools position was entirely reasonable and even generous.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
I was just commenting on the overall tenor of the discussion that you linked to.
-Steve
Was a little of a knee jerk going on in there, a few reasonable posts and a lot of string em up.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Indeed so. Festool owns the Festool name and MUST defend it. Their position is quite reasonable. The want to officially own the domain name, and let the operator keep doing what he is doing. What's wrong with that? In lots of cases, trademark owners simply have their lawyers send a very blunt "cease and desist using our trademark or we'll come after you," letter.Joe
This reminds me of the Moen/Moen (Plumbing fixtures) split many tears ago.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
My wife works for a unit of United Technology. One of the classic cases of a lost trademark is escalator--which used to be a trademark of the Otis Elevator company one of the UT units but became generic because they had failed to defend the trademark.
Is the thread at sawmillcreek locked out or removed? I keep getting a message I do not have privilege to view it. I've even tried logging in and searching for the thread. I can view and reply to other threads.Greg
<!---->•••••••
Exo 35:30-35<!---->
One of the moderators closed the thread this afternoon. Not sure why, it seemed pretty civil although there was the usual bunch that were ready to string up the company after only having heard one side.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Apparently fog will be back up at midnight.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
As of 0200 PDT still not up.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
I send an email to Martin Johnson of Festool in the early hours of July 4. He promptly responded on the holiday! I asked him for permission to share this email with you, and just received it this morning. Here is his reply:> Dear Mr. Porter,
>
> Thank you for your email. To clarify things, there is no lawsuit against the
> owner of the FestoolOwnersGroup. There has also been no attempt to confiscate
> any content or to rest control of any content from the entity known as the
> Festool Owners Group. In fact we have tried to communicate multiple options
> that would allow him to continue with the website, while protecting Festools
> legal claims to trademarks for almost a month. I sent a note to a large group
> of individuals that contacted me yesterday, laying out the information that we
> were willing to share in a public forum out of respect for the administrator.
> I have attached this note for your review. While our hope is that this
> individual will continue to provide members of the FOG with information, we
> are not in a position to post or remove this website, as that can only be done
> by him. I hope this clarifies some of your questions, and alleviates some of
> the confusion created by postings on the internet. Thank you again for
> contacting me.
>
> Kind regards,
> Martin
Edited 7/5/2008 11:42 am by Cincinnati
Festool certainly seems to be a class act.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
The speed and manor of the reply and on a holiday all weighed favorably with me. My impressions exactly — a class company.Greg
<!---->•••••••
Exo 35:30-35<!---->
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled