Hi there
I’m a hobbyist and up to now my Dewalt 1/2″ router mounted in a table has served me fine for a variety of mouldings. Within the next few months however I’ll be building a new house and the finish carpentry will require many lengths of mouldings (for architraves, baseboards, chair-rails etc. in the Federal style). I’m considering the purchase of a spindle moulder (around the $1,000 to $1,500 price range). I would like to know if the quality of machining that I can expect will match that of professional lumber yards with their much more expensive moulder set-ups. Specifically, will the finish be similar to that of a thicknesser, i.e. slight ripples requiring a fair amount of sanding to remove? I know that spindle moulders run at higher speeds than a typical thicknesser so is it reasonable to expect that with a well set up machine and cutters the mouldings will require none or minimal hand sanding?
Thanks
Replies
For best results you will also need a power feeder.
Depending on the number and complexity of the profiles you could spend three times the amount of the shaper on tooling and a power feeder is an absolute must. Moulding machines have very high spindle speeds also. The quality of the finish is related to stock selection and the rate of feed past the cutter. I made all the trim, (Craftsman style and a lot of it) for my home remodel and looking back on it I may have been further ahead in both time and money to have had it done by a mill shop.
Thanks for all your feedback. I'd like to get a spindle moulder anyway (not just for the re-model). From the posts it would seem to me that with a power feeder and proper machine setup I could achieve good quality mouldings with no ripples (as seen on thicknessed boards)?
Two words.........power feeder.
Paul
As others have said, the answer in a word is yes, you will get excellent results with a power feeder. However, before you go out and pay the $1500 you were planning on, check out which cutterheads you will need for your profiles. You may be in for a shock when it comes to the cost of each setup.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Do yourself a favor, find an architectural shop with a four sider and sub your moldings to them.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Let me be more specific. If cost and practicality are taken out of the debate, can I achieve the same quality as a professional moulding yard on my own spindle moulder? I.e., do the moulding machines found in professional lumber yards have technical features that improve finish quality? If the answer is yes, I'd like to hear specific details such as larger number of cutters, greater rigidity, electronic feed control etc.
Thanks
Probably not. At least not as consistent. And for what it is worth, cost and practicality are pretty much what it is all about.
Hi zwake ,
I have five spindle shapers set up in my one person shop. I use a power feed on the shaper I run my moldings on. The spindle speed is usually 8-10 thousand rpm. A router runs from say 15 -20,000 rpm so the high speed and relatively small detail of the router bits produces a smooth result in general.The power feed eliminates the majority of the ripples .
Most details I run from a raised panel to crown molding do require some clean up in general but can replicate or surpass the quality of store bought with my time investment .
I have seen a 4 head molder in operation and the feed rate was like 60 miles an hour it seemed , and the rpms are greater than that of a shaper to my knowledge. The highly detailed base molding I saw run came out clean as a whistle with a shine on it , mind you these knives were ground by my friend and were hss not carbide . The theory I was taught was steel knives actually can produce a superior cut for less time until they need sharpening.
Whether you or I can produce the same quality molding as the lumber yard really depends on the detail and possibly the species run .
You can buy a used old iron U.S. made shaper for under a $1,000 even single phase usually between $500- 750.00 , a power feed can also be found used for $500 give or take at an auction . Or you could buy a new stock feeder and I think stay in your budget .
I have ground knives to reproduce details for old buildings with great success but in all reality if I needed a few thousand feet of something like colonial base I would shop around for the best deal while still producing the rest of the job in the shop , money and time ahead. It can be done but not any better . I only do a large run if it can not be found then I write my own ticket , supply and demand .
hope this helps a bit
dusty
Thanks Dusty
That does help. Construction on the house will only begin in about a month's time so I have about 6 months to make or purchase all the mouldings. I'm more or less sold on a moulder plus feeder as a good investment for my workshop (even if I were not going to build). I'll probably go for a mix of doing it myself for shorter runs and the lumber yard for long runs.
Regards
Wilbur
Many shops produce good quality surfaces directly off a spindle shaper. It does not mean they will be completely free of machine marks. Stair parts are a good example. You can't expect a finish that excels that of a stationary planer that is set up well. If you are doing casings, chair rails, crown moldings and baseboard, you will be working with large flat stock. Spindle shapers are better on edge work than they would be for a wide, specialized face profile. Once you start wanting profiles that are different from the norm, you enter the world of custom ground knives. These are typically done with loose cutters, not something you buy ready made in a three flute variety. You aren't going to run these on small shapers.Architectural shops typically do reproduction molding work. These are the type of shops that restore governors mansions and have often done historical reproductions. In most cases they will use a four sider molding machine. It's very common that these shops already have a vast library of molding profiles. They may also have the knife grinding equipment and experience to make one off shapes. Four siders can leave a cleaner surface finish than other molding methods.The first thing is to identify the molding size and profile you are actually talking about. "Colonial" covers a wide span of styles. If you are considering the heavy, cyma curve type profiles that were typical in some period homes, you will have a challenge duplicating them on a spindle shaper.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Good advise Hammer , as you said a good selection of profiles is often available in many cases the exact detail needed .
My advice would be to only make the ones that are not available for the op new house long runs and such .
You may already know this but many moldings such as wider crown type and base and casing out of the norm can be run with two different set ups since we are limited by the ht of the spindle . These are run on edge with the feeder in place then the next knife is set up and you flip the stick over and run the other half of the detail .
If you have an almost perfect set up the profile will be seamless .
A library of profiles pictured some of the cutters I have and use.
dusty
Your picture reminds me of an old spindle shaper we had in a shop. Loose cutters. We had so many, it was almost impossible to know which ones matched in size, Seems like .0001 in difference was enough for one to go flying. We didn't use it often but a strange thing would happen whenever the machine was started up. It had a uniquely identifiable sound. The first time I was there when it fired up, all the other cabinetmakers dropped to the floor, like an RPG was coming in. There was a courtyard between us and another part of the building, about 50' away. The other wall of the brick building had a big chunk of brick missing. One of the cutters went flying through a window and across the yard. We had a double walled plywood box that we would hold over the spindle when firing up the machine, just in case. I didn't matter. Everyone still hit the deck when they heard that shaper. These days, loose wing cutters are toothed, not just clamped between V groove collars. No need for flack jackets and fox holes. A big part of my business is doing custom trim in new and existing homes. It's not unusual to have 2500 - 3000 lineal feet of casings for the doors and windows. That doesn't count baseboards, chair rails, crown moldings, stairs, cabinetry, etc. My labor isn't free like a homeowners would be. There are some jobs that I can make the trim for and others where it doesn't make sense. If there are slight variations in the profiles, they really show up on miters and continuous joints. Most species of wood need to be run with the grain to avoid tear out. When you have to flip a piece on a spindle shaper, you run that risk. You also often have to spend some time making feeding supports so the work doesn't tip. Things are different when part of the surface is already shaped. A shaper is great when you are working edges. Once the faces get wide and the cuts are complex, it would not be my choice. Too many things can go wrong.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
hammer ,
My collars and knives are the old school style vee groove with no teeth .
Some of my collars do have set screws to hold the set up .
Every time I change a set up with the collar knives I have this Oak 8 X 8 beam that I lay on the table between me and the power feeder I do duck below the shaper table at the first initial start up .
As you noted correctly the weight or balance is critical the larger the cutter the more vibration can occur from un balanced knives . I do some grinding as needed and have learned the size is not as important as the balance .
So I may run only one profiled knife with the other there for balance not for cutting , on small details this works not on the big stuff.
I have heard all the stories of flying knives and such but in reality common sense is paramount . Look at it his way , how many folks have broke a tooth or teeth off a TS blade ? I have maybe lost 10 or 20 in almost 30 years , have you ever had a tooth come off or break ?
Where did the tooth go ? It may be right next to the collar knife imbedded in the brick wall . Point being spit happens as the LLama people say .
As far as running the stock with the grain through the shaper and risking tear out by flipping , when faced with making a 6" tall molding with a spindle shorter then needed I do what I have to do . You will be right 50% of the time .
dusty
As others have said, there are both advantages and disadvantages in owning your own spindle molder. One advantage is that you OWN your cutters, and can run a 2 foot length if you need it. Two years ago I did a molding job (restoration to original blueprints of a 1911 house) and we had the moldings made for us. Even though we paid for the cutters, the company that did the work 'owns' them, in other words, we don't get the back at the end of the job. If we need another 10 feet of molding, we must now pay a $75 set-up fee and their minimum charge is for 150 feet of stock. The advantage is that they can easily get the 10 inch wide stock that we needed for one of the pieces (mop-board) that was needeed. What you may want to look into is a molding cutter (Williams & Hussey??) or similar for the job. It has its own power feeder and can handle wider stock than a spindle shaper.
SawdustSteve Long Island, NY (E of NYC)
I would think that if you are thinking of buying a spindle shaper just so that you can churn out mouldings for the house you are to build for yourself then it is not a practical idea: far cheaper, less bother, no learning curve to merely buy mouldings ready made especially if you select each length yourself.
On the other hand if you are hell bent on having your own shaper and thereafter using it for your hobby you will find that your hobby will leap into an entirely new dimension, assuming you have had suitable training on the use of this machine, acquired a decent one , learned a few tricks and spent some money on cutters and blocks and other odds and ends...
It is more than reasonable to assume that you should be able to get mouldings straight off the knives that require virtually no sanding- you merely go straight onto 240 or 320 grit depending on the timber type only for tactile purposes. Very easy to do with cutter sets and solid profile blocks that are made by Leitz, Leuco, Gudo etc. If you have learned how to make slotted collar knives then you can grind your own design profiles- or just buy ready made knives. Trouble is, all this does not just happen over night....
Wonderful machine, but seems these days to be little used outside the trade- where the use of patterns, jigs and ingenuity make it so versatile.
Having just finished a bunch of flooring with a shaper (T&G/relief cuts and end matched exactly as professional stock) I will add what I have learned about this idea. Its a huge job and now that I am part way through I am stuck finishing the trim too. I totally get why you are thinking this. If I had to buy all the stock for the craftsman style I like, I would go in the poorhouse.
The biggest task if you buy rough stock preparing for shaping. 300bdft of 4/4 led to 5-45gal drums of chips to get thicknessed and jointed to 3/4"x5". If you have a supplier that you can supply you blanks definetly look into that. Straight line ripped is also a benefit, but can lead to excess waste. Quality is partly related to the tools you buy and your feed speed. Cheaper ones do not have the same quality knives nor the same quantity of knives. I bought Weinig and Garniga tools and they are wonderful, but very expensive. Weinig flooring head alone was $700 (no knives yet). Do you need any tall profiles? Most cheaper shapers will have 3" or 4" under the nut capacites. I dont think a $1k to 1.5k shaper will suffice. You should aim for a 1 1/4" spindle and a shaper that is heavy enough to accomodate the power feeder. Lots of very good used SCM out there and many sell with the power feeder. My first 3/4" spindle shaper was a little light for a power feeder. A 1/2hp or 1hp PF weighs about 130lb and extends up to 36" and this leads to good size overturning force. Mass is your friend if you want the PF mounted to the table of your shaper. You will probably want to mount the power feeder to your table saw too and possibly the jointer. If you want to maintain dimensions, every step is critical to get quality pieces. Think about standing there for hours on end fiddling with pieces, your mind will wander and so too will your stock if you setups allow so.
As far as quality of the finish, I dont think you should expect to get the same as a moulder. Moulders (not shaper) are much faster (feed speeds from 32 to 200fpm), have 5 - 7 motors anywhere from 12hp to 20hp, and have far superior rollers to hold the stock perfectly aligned for hours on end. Knives are milled by very skilled machinsts and the setups are done with extremely accurate machines that you cannot mimick in your shop. Knife quality and the rigidity of the stock as it is shaped are key factors from the machine standpoint. If you have any curves, think about how you will hold the stock. If it flexes in the outfeed, you will get blips in the cuts. This is most critical when trying to feed the stock through with it upright as it is far more flexible.
Sanding... think that you will be stuck doing a lot. I know I will when I move on to my cherry trim.
Another key factor is obviously the wood you choose. Pick carefully if you are concerned about quality.
My two bits.
Brad
Thanks, my big concern is quality. I've dealt with one shop that had the latest moulding machinery. However, they were so focused on output that they would not stop to check things like grain direction or perhaps to first surface plane a plank that may have had a twist or hump in. The consequence was that the rejection rate and wasteage was large. I ended up paying for their sloppiness. I'm down in Johannesburg, South Africa. I think I'll do more homework on finding a good supplier but I will definitely make a few of the shorter runs myself.
It is very possible if you are patient, but a ton of work. If you want proof of that, take a look at some of Frenchy's pics. His project is huge and he has milled huge amounts of stock. You can save money once you get all the kinks worked out. My friends think I am nuts spending all the hours milling lumber. The cutter technology has come a long way, and I honestly believe the most common knife failure would be operator error, such as not tightening the hex keys or using slightly damaged cutters.
What grade of lumber was the moulding company using? It is not uncommon for some to use lower grades and discard some stock or grade it lower for alternate uses. They have done all the cost evaluations to prove this. I find FAS or #1 stock yields very well, but there is a cost to it. No question you can save in the waste department. You will have the time to examine a piece, decide if it will yield more stock by customizing the lengths and then proceed. A production shop that plans to produce 1000's upon 1000's of lineal feet per day, will not. It goes against their business plan.
Good luck and post some pics as you move along.
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