I’ve been reading a lot of articles on this topic and realize there are lots of opinions, but for an amateur woodworker that doesn’t have spray equipment I’m still not clear on the best finishing method for coloring hard maple.
Which is better:
1) wipe on gel stain followed by clear topcoat
2) wipe on water based dye followed by clear topcoat
3) shellac “washcoat” followed by oil stain then clear topcoat
I’ve come too far to mess the project up with a bad finish so please advise; also plan to practice the recommended techniques before starting.
Some example pics of your finishes would be great!
Thanks,
Brian
Replies
Before others start giving their takes on the best finish for maple, why do you give us your ideas about how you want it to look. What the piece is, what style it is and how it will be used will help. Formal or informal. Gloss or satin or flat. Light or dark colors. It you wet down the maple with mineral spirits does it show any figure? Do you like that figure or want to supress it?
Cases can be made for any of the three alternatives you mention, but which you choose depends on what you want.
And, you are to be commended for planning to test out the finishes before you start.
You've raised some good points here - I didn't know if most folks would read longer posts so I wanted to minimize the initial background info.
The maple desk will be used for storing materials to make fly fishing baits - the complete unit is a desk with two large drawers and tapered legs with a hutch stacked on top that will be used to store the threads and feathers, etc. (has 3 smaller drawers and a shelf). On top of that, there is a barrister-style bookcase with a glass front that is stacked to store fly fishing books.
Overall, this desk will be a work surface that will be used frequently to make the fishing baits and store the materials, so the top needs to be durable. It is not to be a museum-style piece but has softened lines (1/8 roundovers at edges) and rounded corners. There is little to no figure (curly or fiddleback), however I have detected a sheen periodically depending on the boards used. It is desired to finish it in a satin finish with a medium brown color (see attached).
Please let me know if other info is needed.
I can't help you much with the staining because as I stated I hate to stain because it is less forgiving than oils. I think one huge thing you need to do is regardless of the stain you use go ahead and use a nice durable topcoat like lacquer or poly.
Bio
To easily achieve the level of darkness you want on maple, I would certainly begin with a powdered water soluble aniline dye, This could be topped with a good oil-based varnish. You could, optionally, seal the dye with shellac and apply a gell stain, pigmented dye. Only a little would lodge on the wood, but it would increase the apparent depth of finish.
You might want to consider a lighter color on the work surface. Even on medium brown surfaces, size 18 bronze hooks can hide themselves quite easily. Shoot as I get older, size 2 hooks are prone to disappear.
For the top coat, Do not use lacquer, or shellac, since both could be susceptible head cement and solvents.
You don't need polyurethane varnish--a good phenolic or alkyd varnish will work just fine and be virtually as protective.
Question? How are you providing for mounting the vise and any specialty lights.
The desk is for my brother, so he has a vise with a heavy base (no need for clamping to the edge), and I think he is going to have a work light with the base. The desk itself doesn't have lighting integrated into the hutch or case, but that is what he asked me to do. He has overhead recessed lighting above the spot where the desk will be located so maybe he has decided to go with that and the desk light.
- Good point about the lighter color - he is a few years older than I am so he may trouble finding those smaller hooks. He doesn't have small kids in the house so safety will not be an issue, and he is a doctor so he can stitch himself up if I stain it too dark and he "finds" some hooks! I could not convince him to stick with a natural finish so this will be fun; the previous medium brown pic that I attached was for the Transtint so I will also look at Transfast or ? could use your advice here on powders.
Thanks! I really appreciate the help I've received on this topic.
The advantage of TransTint is that it will dissolve into almost all finishes. The disadvantage of TransTint is that it will be dissolved by almost all finishes.
In other words, TransTint can be lifted by topcoats. The issue is mostly one with brushed or wiped on finishes, so it's still fine for use as a straight dye under sprayed finishes, but in general it's best application is to create dye colored toners where the color is in a finish material. But that's really best left for spraying.
But the powdered dyes mostly just dissolve in one solvent, so if your first topcoat uses a different solvent you have much less problem with the dye lifting.
Bmyyou,
Let me first start by saying when I got here one of my first post was how I HATE to finish because it basically takes to long. After the guys got me to stop being lazy about it I started to take my time. Here is what I would do to get a "good" finish. Sand the wood from 120 to 220, wipe it down with water or mineral spirits to get the dust off. Then apply a coat or two of Shellac without wax (Zinser makes one, make sure you read the label and get the one without wax). Lightly sand to 220 between coats every 45-60 minutes.
The next thing will be a real thing of choice. I like the natural color of Maple so my next choice is to grab a can of tung oil and get to applying. If you wanted to use a stain one of the other people on here would have to give you a recommendation. If you go the tung route take a cotton shirt and make it into a pad and then apply a liberal amount (I really don't know what is meant by "liberal" so I apply it until I like it) of tung to the surface. Let the oil sit on the surface for 5 minutes then sand it down with 400-600 grit wet-dry sand paper. Don't over sand here but it will make it more even. If there is any excess wipe it off with a clean rag and let it set for 12 hours. After 12 hours lightly sand with the 400-600 grit paper and repeat the above step.
As a side note, I like to do this type of stuff in the morning that way I can get on two coats a day. If you get everything prepared and you are putting oil on at 8 a.m. you can get another coat on at 8 p.m. You probably need 3-5 coats to get the "right" look so that is why I try to get in two a day. I normally go for 6-8 since I never know if I'm doing it right I say one more won't hurt.
The final step is going to depend on what you will be doing with the piece. Tung doesn't provide much protection so if you don't need much protection I recommend taking some Johnson's paste wax and rubbing it on with fine steel wool then buffing it away with a clean cotton rag. If you need a more durable topcoat I would go with a wipe on lacquer. You will need several coats but the great thing about this is your can put on a coat every 2 hours with sanding in between.
Hope this helps.
Bio
Update on Maple Finishing "Trials": have made a couple of sample boards to test before taking the plunge into staining maple. I prepared the boards by sanding to 180 grit, sponging with water to raise the grain, and sanding very very lightly with worn 220 grit paper to break the fibers on the surface.
1) Applied small amount of Transfast medium brown dye mixed in distilled water to the board; there was minor amount of splotching and seemed to spread evenly with a cloth
2) applied cherry gel stain to the board; color was even but finish seems to look grainy and smothers the wood grain some-what
3) applied 1 lb. washcoat of shellac to board, let dry, and applied dye as in 1);
did not look very good - stain streaked quite a bit and color was not even
So far, I would vote on the dye applied to the raw wood, but I am concerned that when I coat the desk top / larger area the blotches will be more obvious.
Dye over a wash coat tends to emphasize "blotching" and/or any irregularities in the application of shellac. Dye blotches less when it is applied abundantly. in that case, it is more the concentration of the dye solution, rather than the wood grain, that controls the shade since all portions get more than enough dye for full penetration. I like a sponge to get plenty of dye on. Be sure to start from the bottom up so you have ample time to wipe up any drips or runs onto the already wet wood. Drips onto dry wood, are more difficult, you must v ery quickly get that entire surface dyed quickly or you may see the dye drip.
Your observation that gel stain, which is an entirely pigment stain, obscures grain is accurate. In many case the pigment stain is better over a surface which has first been dyed, then sealed with shellac, before the dye stain is added. That way the pigment conceals less wood grain, and tends to add a sense of depth to the finish.
If you seal the dye, and then apply the gel stain, you will reduce the appearance of any blotching of the dye. That means you want the dye a little lighter than you want the final finish, to allow for the effect of the pigmented gel stain.
I'm staining a maple dresser now. I've mixed up Transfast waterbased dye- mixing the colors from scratch to develop the shade of brown I wanted. On a test scrap, I sealed the dye with 1.5# cut of dewaxed blonde shellac followed by a glaze coat of Bartley's dark brown mahogany. A seal coat of shellac over the dye is necessary to avoid filling every pore with pigment which can look kinda dirty, IMHO. I'm going to apply two coats of the Rockler Sam Maloof poly/oil blend as a final top coat. The above procedure looked great on scraps but when I started applying the dye to my dresser (3-years in the making) it appears much darker than on the scraps. Is there an effective and uniform way to lighten the water based dye after has been applied and dried on the wood. I'm considering either using a sponge or sanding lightly with a random orbit sander. I worry about introducing inconsistencies in the finish with both approaches. I don't mean to hijack this threat but any suggestions would be helpful.
Yes, you can get a moderate amount of lightening by using a wet sponge to remove some of the dye. Use enough water that you are diluting the mix, not just wiping some off. That helps keep it more even. You do have to be careful about evenness, but you can tinker with the dye several times as long as you haven't applied any sealing coat over it. For that matter, you can remove most (but not quite all) of the dye by using a chlorine bleach solution. I don't recommend sanding, and especially not with a random orbital sander.
But, before you do that have you simulated what the dyed wood would (sorry) look like under a top coat. Give it a swipe of naptha and it will reveal its' true nature better. Naptha is a very light distillate and will leave no oily residue.
There is a problem with you proposed schedule, however. Since you will have well sealed the wood with both shellac, and the binder of the gel stain, the Maloof oil/varnish mix will not have a good chance to penetrate into the wood. You would end up wiping virtually all of it off if you follow normal procedure for a oil/varnish mix. But, if you don't wipe all of it off, it would just sit on the surface and cure into a very soft finish that wouldn't be very satisfactory at all.
Instead of the oil/varnish mix I would recommend a wiping varnish for top coats. Waterlox is a good choice, or you can mix your own by thinning any good oil based varnish.
Thanks for your advice. I don't understand, however, how Waterlox Original would be that much different than the Maloof blend. The only difference I can think of is that the Maloof blend has polyurethane, oil, and binders whereas waterlox is just oil and binders, correct? I was leaning towards the maloof finish figuring that the polyurethane would provide more protection to the wood. Am I off base here?What about thinned boiled linseed oil or danish oil? I only suggest these because I already have them in my collection. - Lyptus
There is an extremely big difference between the Waterlox and the Maloof. Waterlox is varnish--it has no oil, at least after it has been chemically reacted with the phenolic resin to become varnish. The Maloof finish is a mixture of varnish and oil. The two portions have not been chemically reacted together just mixed. It is unfortunate that marketing gets in the way of understanding the materials. Waterlox is a bit unusual in that it uses tung oil as it's oil ingredient in making the varnish. Most varnishes, particularly DIY polyurethane varnishes use linseed oil, and a few, light colored varnishes such as Pratt & Lambert 38 use Soya oil as ingredients. But, varnish doesn't contain oil in meaningful amounts after the chemical reaction that creates the varnish.
Anytime you mix the oil and varnish you get a very soft material that must be used differently than varnish. Oil/varnish mixes which include Maloof, Watco Danish Oil and many others, are designed to be applied to basically unsealed wood, allowed to penetrate for a short time, and then vigorously wiped off the surface, leaving only an "in-the-wood" finish. If left on the surface it would be too soft to be a useful finish, almost gummy even. Once the wood is sealed, as it would be with both shellac and gel stain, almost all the oil/varnish mix would be wiped off if applied properly.
Polyurethane in an oil varnish mix will make essentially no difference compared to other varnishes. In single part consumer varnishes polyurethanes role is abrasion resistance, it's differences in other areas are minor. Mixed with oil, and applied as an in-the-wood finish, there is no polyurethane film to resist abrasion.
Edited 8/15/2008 9:26 am ET by SteveSchoene
Thanks for the more detailed explanation. So my proposed finishing schedule is the following:1. Raise grain
2. Apply 1st coat water-based dye (custom TransFAST mix)
3. Lightly hand sand with 220 grit
4. Apply 2nd coat water-based dye (In my own tests I've found that the first coat does not always achieve uniform penetration. Adding a second coat of the same concentration darkens the overall finish but also makes the finish more uniform).
5. Hand sand with 320 grit
6. Seal with 1.5# cut of super blonde shellac to fill pores
7. Lightly hand sand with 320 grit
8. Apply Bartley's Dark Brown Mahogany Gel Stain as a glaze coat
9. Top coat with WaterloxDoes this sound reasonable or needlessly complex? With an underlying oil glaze, can I get by with one coat of Waterlox? Do you apply it with a brush or rag? Will Waterlox dissolve the glaze coat?Thanks again,
Lyptus
That should work, though there are also other ways to skin the cat. For example, I apply the dye really wet--with a sponge--so that the surface is fully saturated in one coat. Lots of people do lightly sand the dyed only surface, just as your schedule calls for. I tend to put on the sealing coat of shellac before sanding as it stiffens the raised grain fibers and slightly reduces the chance of cutting through the dye.
While the Waterlox shouldn't dissolve the binder on the gel stain, the binder is pretty weak and some pigment could be moved around a bit. I'd be as gentle with the Waterlox as possible, probably easiest with a brush or if looks like a problem in tests I'd prevent it by spraying a coat of shellac. (The aerosol shellac from Zinsser, or a Preval sprayer works well for this if full fledge spray facilities aren't available.)
It takes about 3 coats of a wiping varnish to be equivalent to one brushed on coat of full strength varnish, and for a desk you probably want pretty full coverage. I'd expect you would want to apply at least three coats, and depending on the look you are seeking, you could find that you wanted several more coats--8-9 wouldn't be rediculous.
You can apply up to three coats of Waterlox in a day, waiting just long enough between the coats for the film to be dry to the touch. These "sets" of coats can be applied without sanding between them. Then, after three coats you should let them cure at least overnight. After each set, or any time that the Waterlox has a full overnight period to cure, scuff sand with 320 before applying the next set of coats. Putting on sets like this without the varnish being fully cured allows enough crossbonding between coats to avoid "witness lines" if you cut through a thin coat while rubbing out. As is usual with varnish, you still want to wait a month for the varnish to fully cure before rubbing out the surface.
The piece I am finishing is a dresser. Since I'll only be varnishing the exterior, do you think it would be ready to use a few days after the final coat? I would just wait a month before the final rub out. The reason I ask is that it's taken me three years to build this thing and my wife has been very patient with me while she stacks her clothes on our daughter's former changing table. At this stage, asking her to wait another month to use the dresser might be a bit much.Thanks,
Lyptus
Unfortunately, finishing is one of the most important parts of woodworking and trying to shortcut it can make even the most beautifully crafted piece look like a piece of junk. Conversely, I've seen many pieces with so-so craftsmanship that were "saved" by a top drawer finish. - lol
The name of the game is study, practice, fail, and try something else until you get the look you want.
Google "finishing hard maple" and start reading. Find a couple of techniques that you feel that you can handle and follow them precisely on pieces of scrap to see if they're what you want - or can accept. Forget the clock. Some finishes can be recoated in an hour and some may need a day or more.
Most hard maple will have some degree of curl or stripe which you probably will want to accentuate. I have found that two coats of Danish Oil followed by tree coats of wipe on polyurethane achieves the highlighting of the grain and provides a very durable surface finish.
Be sure to let each coat of the Danish Oil dry at least 24hours and be sure to rub out each coat of oil and poly except for the last poly coat with very fine, oilless steel wool.
For me the key to getting the right look is the degree to which you sand the stain. I would do a bunch of test pieces to figure out just how much sanding will give you the look you prefer. As rcj said, some maple has curl you'll want to have pop, and you can usually sand pretty vigorously so that the area in between the curls will really lighten up while the curl still stands out. In my (somewhat limited) experience, other pieces of maple will have very little curl and may splotch up, and sanding may also accentuate that, achieving a look you may not like as much. In general, I like to have the figure pop in maple, but I don't want a finish that looks too busy.So it's best to test the degree of staining you want on cutoffs from the same boards you used for the piece. That way, you'll get a sense of how these particular pieces of maple handle the stain.Norman
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