I have a bar top to recoat. It appears to be oak with polyurethane. I will lightly sand and recoat… but was interested in suggestions for a good and durable finish. Fast-drying would be an additional plus but I might be willing to give up the dry time for an excellent durability.
This bar top is in an Applebee’s restaurant. Plenty of use and food service on it as well as drinks. So think heavy plates, silverware, etc.
The coating that is on there now is likely polyurethane and doesn’t appear to have held up well.
Another concern is that the seam at bar top to front lip was caulked with silicone. It has not held up well. With the slick finish of the wood and the heavy presence of grease/oils in foodservice, I’d say that was a problem for the silcone performance. Any suggestions on a good sealant for that as well? I am leaning toward OSI, Quad, Clear. It has performed well for me in other applications. I could perhaps scuff the joint before caulking for a better bond.
EDIT: one more note…. an epoxy finish is not a possibility on this project.
Edited 4/1/2007 12:06 pm ET by PeteDraganic
Replies
The finish that has become the "standard" for this kind of service is Behlen's Rockhard Varnish. Properly applied, there is none better for this application. It's what this varnish was made for. Can't help with the caulking problem as you haven't given enough information about the nature of the joint. There is finsih on the joint surfaces? Why isn't the lip properly glued up as part of the top?
Rich
Rich,
My complaint on the joint is the same as yours.... but in today's construction industry, too many things are quick, cheap and substandard.
Nonetheless, it is what it is at this point.
The joint is the result of the attached piece forming the raised edge at the customer-side perimeter of the bar. It is an "inside corner".
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,If the joint is not made properly, "sticking the piece on" with caulk (or anything else) is going to just repeatedly fail."Never time to do it right, always time to do it over."Rich
the piece does not have top be stuck on. It is securely in place but the joint is slightly open and therefore open to the accumulation of crud. It was previously sealed with a bead of silicone caulk that didn't adhere too well and left the gap exposed eventually.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I've had some success using epoxy in the situation you describe. I will fill and stick to most any clean surface.
Rich,
I found the Behlen's Rockhard Varnish, and bought 3 qts... at a bargain price of 51.00 out the door. Got home and while reading over the fine print, realized that this stuff takes upwards of 96 hours to cure well.... it is "dry to handle" in 12 hours... but I don't think that means ready for full service.
So, it looks like I might just go the route of fast-dry. No chance of Applebee's keeping the bar closed for any amount of time during operating hours.
Oh well.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Well, like the sign says, "GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. - - - Pick two."You never mentioned the need to get the job done overnight. Anything you can apply and use in the short time a commercial establisment is closed overnight is going to fail again and need another "fix."Varnish, any varnish, takes time to apply correctly. There is no way to quickly prepare and apply a bartop finish that is going to last. Sorry neither you nor your customer realizes that.After thoroughly sanding the existing surface, you should apply the varnish, diluted 50% with mineral spirits. The next coat can go down full strength in 8-12 hours. If you wait much longer than 24 hours, scuff sand the first coat. The second coat should harden for at least 48 hours. Then scuff sand and apply at least 2 more coats, 48 hours apart, scuff sanding in between. The last coat can probably be used in about 72 hours, but I would include a final sanding and rub-out of that coat after at least 2 weeks, preferably 4 weeks.I have no idea how you are going to work that kind of finishing schedule into a functioning restaurant bar operation. But then, I don't know how anybody thinks the bar can be correctly coated with a "bar-top finish" with any less of an effort.You need to get in touch with a cabinet finisher who has lots of experience spraying pre-catalyzed lacquer or catalyzed varnish. You may be able to get the job done in several successive nights, using the bar during that time. But the bar is going to have to be out of service for at least the initial 24 hours of prep and first coats. Rich
Rich, sorry I forgot to mention the fact that this is a working restaurant with limited down time... I really thought I did include that info but see now that I didn't.
I know full-well that a good job is going to take more time than I have. I have done my best to convince them to close the bar for at least 24 hours (which would effrectively give me nearly 35 hours).
In this case, we'd have to add "late" to the line up of "good, fast and cheap". While it is a great income, servicing restaurants, it is aggravating to deal with the tough schedules.
I recently regrouted a kitchen for an Applebee's... little existing grout remaining... one previous regrout over all the old grease.... and work couldn't start unitl 12:30 am. It took me and 2 guys 8 hours to completely remove all loose grout, deep clean with brushes and degreaser/cleaner, and regrout with fast-setting grout (black over quarry tile). And with my advancing age, being up all night now takes a half week of recovery time it seems... I remember when such a night wouldn't even slow me down the following day.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
If you can find it I would suggest DuPont's Imron 1.2 HG-C. You won't find it at any of the Big Box stores or any of the woodworking stores. It's an industrial finish. I'd check with your local DuPont automotive refinish jobber and see if they can get you some. That's where I get mine.
This stuff is "hard dry" two hours after it's been applied. It's non-toxic (no isocyanates - i.e., no catalyst), specifically designed to be put over an existing finish (to save the cost of having to strip and refinish), can be applied with brush, roller or spray, has excellent adhesion, excellent flexibility and very good chemical resistance. But best of all it is an Imron and they are famous for their durability.
I don't know how the new waterborne Imrons stack up to the old solventborne Imrons, but I've seen the solventborne ones stand up to severe abuse and come out smelling like a rose. One of the keys to it's super durability is it's super flexibility. If you mildly sandblast it the sandblast media will simply bounce off the surface.
The 1.2 HG-C is the full gloss clear. If you want a lower sheen you can get some of their 1.8 FT-C which is dead flat and just intermix them to your desire sheen.
A couple years ago when these new Imrons first came out I did a bunch of adhesion testing with the full gloss one. I put it on wood, plastic laminate, plexiglass, aluminum and several other things which I can't remember exactly what they were at the moment. This stuff adhered exceptionally well to everything I threw at it except for one thing... I tried it as a clearcoat over an automotive metallic basecoat and it didn't adhere worth a darn. But a quick call to a DuPont tech provided the solution - catalyze the basecoat. When I did that this stuff stuck as well to the automotive paint as it did to everything else. In fact my adhesion testing was so extensive that when he found out about it my DuPont salesman buddy who gave me the Imron to try out "borrowed" all of my samples to use as sales props and I've never seen them since. LOL
The downside is that it's spendy. But if time is of the essence then it's pretty hard to argue with a two hour full cure timeframe.
That is exactly the kind of information I was hoping to get! Thanks!!
There is always a poster or two in the Taunton forums that knows something about anything. I've been a member here for a good 10 years or so and I've yet to be disappointed.
I'll be checking into this for sure.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
It's my pleasure, Pete. Although I would stress that I certainly don't claim any expertise across the spectrum of paints and finishes. My actual area of expertise is relatively narrow. But in the industry in which I work a working knowledge of an extremely diverse range of paints and finishes is pretty much required because I never know what oddball thing a designer is going to throw at me.
I find Knots somewhat humbling at times because my experience is so heavily tilted towards commercial finishes that often times I'm right there with the newbies trying to digest the wisdom of some of my peers here who have experience heavily tilted towards non-commercial finishes.
That said, I'm feeling the need to qualify my recommendation here. I mispoke in describing this clear as "non-toxic." It is low-toxic and that is one of it's major selling points. But very few products these days are honestly "non-toxic" and I don't want to leave a mistaken impression about this clear. Also, all of the usual caveats about cleaning the existing surface and sanding for adhesion apply with this stuff too. Which I'm sure you already know. I just want to make sure that anyone else with less experience doesn't read this thread and think that I've recommended something that they can just slap on any surface and expect it to perform well on.
Kevin,Just about any finish is truly "non-toxic" once it has cured.
I guess I should have better articulated the point. I was referring to the finish in it's liquid state. That's typically the focus of any health concerns.
I've always understood the health concerns to involve the presence of the finish on the cured/dried/finished surface - such as a salad bowl finish, paint, etc. It doesn't matter whether it's toxic in the liquid tate. All liquid finishes are toxic when liquid - even water-borne. But when cured, most finishes are inert. The exception would be any finish containing a preservative/toxin (such as arsenic, copper, etc) meant to inhibit growth of micro-organisms, or an unintended toxin such as lead in paint.Rich
I bet the concern about the toxicity of the liquid finish comes from the particular situation in this case where it must be applied in an space which is going to be occupied in only a short time--far before a cure can be expected to be complete.
In another context, I was perfectly willing to apply a two-part polyurethane finish with a bunch of pretty scary solvents when it was done in the open air, with a meaningful breeze across the deck. In an enclosed space, I would have needed spray booth type exhaust to make me willing to apply the same stuff. On the other hand, brushing shellac on a single piece of furniture doesn't make me open the windows if its cold out.
Yes, that's it exactly. And it's not an inconsiderable issue as you point out. Perhaps an even better example would be the old style solventborne Imrons which quite a few painters refused to work with, back in the day, even with appropriate respirators and spray booths because it had a reputation as being extremely toxic when sprayed.
I think this is probably a good example of where the commercial finishing and painting sphere and the non-commercial sphere don't intersect. Very, very rarily have I had a client express any interest in whether the cured finish was toxic or not. The concerns, especially with on-site jobs, is nearly always the fumes.
Yup,
Both environments need to be considered. But I've always considered the application process of any finish to involve toxic substances which must be handles properly.
Yeah, and that's because you know what you're doing. I don't think I've ever met a finisher/painter with any meaningful experience who didn't make the same basic assumption about the application process. We're the ones exposed to whatever toxic fumes there might be, so we have a vested interest in that aspect. From what I can discern it seems that most of the fume toxicity stuff coming from the manufactorers is either targeted towards public health concerns or inexperienced finishers.
"you know what you're doing."
Ha! Thanks for the compliment.
For too many years than I want to admit to, I, and many, many woodworkers breathed solvents that we all took for granted. Awareness about the cell-killing potential for the substances we've used for so long, and equipment to protect us is so much better today (heck, it wasn't even available years ago).
My IQ is down to 170 these days. No telling how smart I would be if I hadn't killed off all that gray matter breathing lacquer thinner all those years. yuk, yuk.
Rich
Edited 4/2/2007 12:12 pm ET by Rich14
When I was younger and still invincible we used to joke about the solvents killing our brain cells. But except for pretty severe conditions over a prolonged period of time I don't think it does as much damage to the brain as it does to the liver and maybe the spleen too.
Like you, I didn't do anything to protect myself for many years, plus I am an ex-addict (cocaine & meth, rehab in '88, been clean ever since). And while I'm a dozen or so IQ points shy of you, I have enjoyed taking the tests from time to time over the last 20+ years, including a brief flirtation with MENSA at the very beginning, and I've honestly not seen any degradation.
Here's a little something of the anecdotal variety that you might find interesting... It's pretty much common knowledge in many professional trade circles that there seems to be a very strong corrolation between painters/finishers and alcoholism/addiction. My own commercial experience absolutely mirrors that perception. When I was in rehab everyone had to go through a mini-IQ test. I believe we were being used a lab rats for some study. Anyway, the guy administering the test was a psychologist and he conceeded to me that his studies indicated that addicts and alcoholics tended to have above average IQs.
My own working hypothesis is that there is some kind of corrolation between creativity, intelligence and a propensity towards substance abuse that seems to intersect in the field of finishing and painting. If that's true then it seems to me to be one of the best possible examples of the proverbial two-edged sword. Yeah, we tend to be smart. But it's not a risk-free gift and in some circumstances it can lead to our own downfall.
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