Replies

1. 
   vern | Jan 06, 2005 07:36am | #1

   you know when I first read your thread ,I thought I was seeing things - I have got to give you credit for doing a fantastic job filling out your background information- I have check quite a few of them but never one like yours-- anyway back to the subject at hand -- I have made hundreds even thousands of boxes including 2 or 3 hundred humidors -- never have shot finish before splitting-- to name a few reasons , damage to finish when installing hinges , gluing on top, squaring cover up with bottom (after hinges are installed ) usually on belt sander no -- I don't think that I would even consider doing it, thanks anyway --

   making sawdust
1. 
   erich | Jan 06, 2005 10:53pm | #3

   Hi Vern,

        Thanks for putting up with my bio., you know, one day at work I was bored so I decided to actually fill all that stuff in.  :)

        I understand all of your reasons for not applying finish to the box first, (especially squaring up the top to the bottom!).   I imagine if I did decide to try out my plan I would almost expect to have to touch up the finish after adding hinges, but with the lacquer finish I've enjoyed using so far on my current project, that would be pretty simple.  That's one of the bonuses you get with lacquer, right, repairability?  I guess I just feel that there are a lot of problems associated with "edges" when you finish a piece - you have to be careful sanding them, finish thins there, etc... .   When you slice the top off a box you've just gone and created 8 more edges that you have to worry about.  

        I'm think I'll give it a try sometime and I'll report back what I've learned.  One thing though, do you think I'd have trouble with deformation of a glued box if I finishd the outside first?  The plans for the humidor here at FWW essentially only call for a finish on the outside anyway (even though that's supposed to be a sin).

        Also, if I could presume to pick your brain for a second, I was intrigued by your method of squaring top and bottom - a belt-sander.  I thought of that, but in my case, with veneered outside faces, that wouldn't work very well.  Does that technique go well?

        Thanks for your input!

                Erich 

1. 
   vern | Jan 08, 2005 07:31am | #7

   sorry I haven't got back to you before this-- If you are using veneer than you would want to be carful when you split the box , like tape the kerf and definitly be sure your fence is parallel to your blade-- I would even spray some blade lubricant on the blade-- if you have and can use the hinge wizard quarant hinge jig than you would not be concerned about the cover being in alainment with the box. this jig in fantastic for installing most hinges-- you should " cut in " corners and edges when you spray or what that means is hit them first---remember- you can not expect finish to stay on a knife edge or anything that resembles the same round the corners -even just a little--execpt the cover - box joint-- if you have a problem with that joint keeping the finish looking good --you should really lay some extra coats on there OR put a slight bevel on either the top or the bottom but you would not want to that if you veneered the box or maybe if the venner chipped a little when you cut it maybe a bevel would be in order--as far as a box deforming-- I don't know how you are joining the corners I think unless you are using a butt joint(hope you are using at least a dovetail ) and you are waiting for the glue to dry, rhere should no risk of any distortion--let me say this about squaring up with belt sander-- I make sure all the screws are in the hinges so that the cover will stay put --which FWW is that humidor in - that is correct --no finish on the inside -just spanish cedar let me know how it goesmaking sawdust

1. 
   erich | Jan 10, 2005 07:30pm | #9

   Hi again Vern,

        Thanks for the response.  The humidor is in FWW #127, but the article is also listed here on the website under the free plans heading.  I like the magazine article better because the pictures are of a better quality than the computer can produce, but that's just icing on the cake.  It's a good article and a good plan.

   I do have a jig like the one you are describing, one put out a couple of years ago by the BRUSSO people for their quadrant hinge.  I too thought it was great!  I wouldn't feel nearly as comfortable trying to square a box lid to the box without it. 

   About joining the corners, the article calls for precise, tightly fitting rabbets, the very top of the lid is also rabbetted in, the whole box is glued up at once which, so says FWW, makes for a strong box.  Seems to be good so far.  The thing that worries me is that we've all been told that veneering on one side is a no-no.  The article says it's okay and that some magic set of factors (high humidity in the box, veneered lacquered outer face of box, tight joinery) makes just veneering one side alright.  I took the author at his work and so far, judged by my current set of humidors it's worked out.  I only worry if I decide to pursue my project on a scrap box if I'll have problems with deformation.  I guess it's likely to show up most after I cut the top off. 

   Again, thanks for your thoughts and take a peek at the article, it sounds like you're an accomplished box maker, so you might find it interesting.

   Erich 

2. 
   jackplane | Jan 06, 2005 04:56pm | #2

   Applying finish then cutting ensures a shorter life for your cutting tools. Spraying lacquer is a good idea(though not from a can), because it dries in minutes and reduces runs.

   If surface tension is that great a problem, I suggest easing the edges of your work first before finishing. Sharp edges are unpleasant to the touch anyway.

1. 
   erich | Jan 06, 2005 11:18pm | #4

   Hi JackPlane,

        Thanks for the response, I'm thinking I didn't communicate very well about the thinning finish at the edges though.  The edges I'm talking about are the edges created when I slice the top off the bottom of the completely glued up box - that's 8 new edges to have to make sure you don't sand too much and you don't get too much thinning finish.  Surely I wouldn't ease those edges, where the lid of the box meets the bottom. 

        Shortening saw blade life aside, do you think if I gave it a try I'd have problems with the box popping apart if only the outside was finished for a while before it was cut apart?  The FWW plans for the humidor only do finishing on the outside anyway, but that's a humidor with a moist interior envoirnment.  I don't know.   It just seems so much easier to be able to sand a complete whole box and finish a whole box (pore-filler and finish both) instead of the bottom and the lid seperatly.  I don't know, maybe it will be a fool's experiement!  :)  Thanks for your input.

        Erich   

1. 
   jackplane | Jan 07, 2005 12:06am | #5

   To get microscopic about it, no finish will adhere to a perfectly square edge, so they're mostly sanded or chamfered.

   I don't think your box will come apart finishing the outside first, assuming  the joinery is okay.But when you cut your box, the finish is also cut, and not always cleanly,which is why I'd finish it in two pieces.

3. 
   richk1 | Jan 07, 2005 12:06am | #6

   I agree with the other posters - the finish could get scratched when installing the hinges or cutting open the box.

   To answer your other question: no, I don't think the prefinished box would self destruct when cut open. Since it's a closed box there should be no moisture change inside the box to create stresses.

   Rich Knab
   People of mediocre ability sometimes achieve outstanding success because they don't know when to quit.

4. 
   hammer1 | Jan 08, 2005 07:06pm | #8

   Have you tried what you are asking, Erich? Make sure you do it on a box you consider a throw away. The saw is likely to chip the finish as the blade exits. When cutting off a top, you are working with the good face down. If the blade doesn't chip the finish, something on the saw top will scratch it. As you are making the cuts, you need to insert some shims that are equal in thickness to the saw kerf. This will help keep the last cut from pinching on the blade. Clamping these in place can also lead to marks.

   Lacquer and it's application are often misunderstood. Deft, is not a real lacquer. Real lacquer is very difficult to brush. Building up more than three coats will often spell disaster down the road. Like the chocolate shell on an ice cream bar, the lacquer shell will chip, craze and lift, if too many coats are used. You would be better off learning how to polish the surface if you are looking for that high gloss finish. 10 coats of Deft will form a plastic box around your wood. It will be fragile and may act independently of the wood it is placed on. This is a case where more is not better.

   Boxes generally don't blow apart but they can distort after the top is cut off. The best way to prevent this is in the original construction. Pieces should fit together without persuasion. If you have had to pull something together with clamps, it may distort after the cut.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   erich | Jan 10, 2005 10:53pm | #10

   Hi Hammer,

        Thanks for your reply and thoughts.  No, I haven't tried this yet, but when I do I will most certainly make up a box just for experiment's sake.  A "throw-away" as you you say. :)  I hadn't thought of the scratches from the table of the saw, that's a good point.  I'll have to adress that.  When I was puting the finish on the ones I have currently I just kept thinking to myself, this would be so much easier if the box wasn't cut apart yet.  We'll see.  BTW, I am not using Deft for the outside of the box (coincidentally, I did apply a light spray coat of it inside the box - not the cedar liner of course - as per the FWW plan), rather, I'm using McClosky's Brushing Lacquer that I got from Jeff Jewitt's site.  It does have some problems with brush marks, but that's okay, I'm rubbing out next week, that'll take care of those.  Cheers and thanks again!

   Erich