I’m replacing two missing cupboard doors in the shop with Melamine, and want to use continuous hinges, since they’ll be holding some weight in storage bins. The screws (#4 x 3/4″) don’t seem to be seating well. Is this an exercise in futility?? The melamine was selected because it was handy — leftovers — and it looks good with the melamine countertops.
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
I'm guessing the substrate is particle board, so particle board screws are probably your best option. Make sure the Melamine surface itself is penetrated with a hole large enough to clear the shank.
You might also try adding glue, like JB weld or some 2 part epoxy, to bond the hinge to the door as well.
O.K. I admit it I am a redneck. ;-)
Mike
Most likely your substrate is MDF which has structural properties that are mostly useless ... so YES I'd say that you are involved in a fruitless effort here.
Hi Fg, Is there anyway you can let in a piece of wood to the edge to take the screws?Failing that, increase the length and size of the screws (to a 5 or better 6)I find that 4 's have such a shallow thread that they are only good in wood,preferably hardwood.At least with a 6 you may find a screw with a cut thread rather than the normal ill defined rolled thread.
re: up-sizing the screws, problem is the hinges are slightly countersunk to match the #4 heads. As soon as I saw those screws, I thought "UhOh...." Tried using Lock-Tite, didn't do any good. Substituted 3/4" screws for 3/8", no difference.
If I "let in" a piece of hardwood (plenty of that laying around), is there a reliable way to adhere it to the particleboard core? I never worked with this stuff except to screw it down as a countertop.
What I want to do is mount two hardware bins on the insides of the doors. The cupboards are very deep, and this is my way of efficiently using all that depth. But the original hinges are too lightweight to take the stress. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG-
Blum sells a nylon insert for an 8mm hole that uses a screw similar in size to a #4 or 5, You could epoxy these in or just rely on the pressure. The other consideration is to rabbet the edge of the melamine and glue in some hardwood to hold the screws. Screws by themselves in the material on end will just result in failures over time.
The other consideration you could make are institutional style hinges. These are stamped steel - 16 ga I believe, that use 5MM system screws.
Will euro hinges handle the load? Blum makes the inserta type that are held in by pressure - no fasteners. Just use more per door to handle the load.
food for thought....
To upsize the screws just use countersink or better yet if you have one a snail bit.Increase the countersink size in the hinge .If you backup the hinge with softwood when it is on the drill press it will also increase the size of the hole. 3/4 inch 6's minimum preferably 1". It is essential that you pilot drill first in MCP.Yellow glue works well with the core of MCP if you decide on the wood route.One thing you may not be aware of is that there are varying qualities of MCP both in the core and in the coating.
I would band the melamine with the hardwood of your choice using biscuits and Titebond. Particle board glues up just fine, but it sux for holding screws. - lol
Quote " hardwood (plenty of that laying around),"
Why not just make a quick set of doors out of scrap wood? Rail and stile frame with 1/4" ply panel, quick and easy.
Do the bins require a solid mounting area all the way across or would the stiles on each side of a frame and panel door work?
FG,
I am using melamine for my drop down outfeed table on the TS with a piano hinge. I used the wrap around type piano hinge (screws go in from two sides) and swapped out the screws...because the brass screws strip so easily...one year old, still going strong.
Another option might be to throw a box around the melamine and store stuff in the door...that would give you solid wood and more storage
Edited 11/3/2004 9:37 am ET by BG
Forestgirl ---
The usual problem with the screws which come with piano hinge is that the heads hit the wood before they tighten up against the metal. If you drill your pilot holes and then countersink them slightly, the screws seat much better.
Jamie
Jamie -
I'm a member of the "overkill" society! (grin). Thus for particle board and MDF where I want a mechanical fastener to do its job, I through bolt! (hehehe). Not pretty but.....
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Yeah, I thought about that (I'm a member in training) -- 12 screws in each door. "Hi, here's my Armadillo Door" LOL!
I'm trying to find another place to put the storage bins, or another way to include them in the cupboard arrangement.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I've had simular issues with piano hinge. You are pretty much stuck with that size of screw. It is almost imposible to increase the counter sink for a larger screw. The metal is too thin. The plastic inserts are a good idea if they will work with those small screws.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Mike, thanks for the definitive answer. Hope I can find the receipt for those hinges! I bought 4 of the long ones.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jamie -
OK, this is a shop cabinet and we're talking "utilitarian", right.
Pop rivets?? if you have room for the mushroomed portion on the back.
I like your idea of maximizing the use of the inside face of the door. Actually, I would think if you're careful and use screws that are the same thickness as your melamine and don't drive them to submission, they should hold. Another possibility would be to use longer screws than the melamine thickness then file them off flush with the face. A design detail!! (hehe).
What sort of door geometry are you using? Is the hinge on the outside or installed like butt hinges on a regular door?
Just curious.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
FG
Consider using the euro cup hinges, they're cheap and they'll hold the weight. If these are Face frame cabinets you'll have to built spacer blocks to bring the cabinet part of the hinge out flush to the FF, if they're just euro boxes you won't have to do anything.
All you need, if you don't already have it is a forstner bit to drill out the cup in the door. I don't remember the size off hand. I'm thinking 1 7/8 or 1 5/8, but whichever it is it's one of those sizes that has a mm equivilent so you don't need to buy a "special metric" forstner to install these hinges (although they try to lead you to beleive otherwise). If you want to know the size, let me know and I'll check it out tonite.
Dan
Hi Dennis ("Curious Dennis" -- I like it). Yes, they are quite utilitarian. As originally planned the hinges would have been on the inside face of the door, and the inside edge of the cabinet frame. (The door sits proud of the cabinet, not flush). Hah, which makes me realize the heads don't really need to be flush. My brain keeps wanting to put the hinge on the edge of the door instead.
Am I right in thinking the stress on the Melamine would be much less if the hinge was mounted entirely on the outside (outside face of door, outside face of cabinet). It would be completely visible, but with a little "door rest" installed, there would be no weight on it when the door was closed, only when it was opened.
As to your "design detail (heh heh)" I'll do you one better -- I could cut them off a tad long and then hammer them, using a metal backing plate, to make them mushroom a bit. Would that be like pop rivets with threads? I've never done rivets, don't know if I have a gizmo or not.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG
I don't think you'll have any problem if you are screwing the hinges on to the (back) face of the door (compared to fixing into the edge) & also to the cabinet. Of course as a design feature you could also use a set of custom made wrought iron gate hinges - they'd probably handle the weight fairly well too :-). Euro style hinges could also be an option if you have access to a 35mm bit & the patience to figure out the drilling locations of the mounts & cup. (I'm happy to help if you need a hand there).
Don
European style hiniges -- hmmm, a bit of overkill price-wise. However I do have some antique hand-wrought strap hinges, about a foot long on each side. Why didn't I think of that?! LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG
'European style hiniges -- hmmm, a bit of overkill price-wise' Whaaaaat, I pay around $2.00 for a hinge & mount............ you getting stingy up there on the artic circle. Go with the straps because if conversation stalls you can tell them some idiot in Australia recommended them:-)
Don
Hmmmm, I'll be darned, I ####umed they were much more expensive than that. Shows what I know!
I'm side-tracked right now getting the overhead blade guard installed on the table saw. A friend wants to use it on Thursday, would like him to stay my friend!
PS: #### is a synonym for donkey. Sheesh.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 11/9/2004 7:29 pm ET by forestgirl
HMM I pay about 20 bucks a pair here in MO for european style hinges ... of course I won't use those cheap imitations they carry in HD I like Blums though I have used Salice ... how come you are getting them so cheap? What brands are you talking about for $2?
Clay
Blum, Grass, Hafele, Hettich, Ferrari & Danko 110* clip-ons all sell around $Au2.00, while 165* go for about $5. OK we do buy in boxes of 300 but the price doesn't alter that much for small quantities although it may increase up by 25-30% for those who are non trade customers.
Mind you I have seen them sold in our version of HD for $12.
Don
Clay,
The Blums should run about $2.50 -$3.50 per hinge with plate for the standard 110/120 degree. You just need to shop around. The 170's & 26mm's run alot more. Salice may be a little less.
if you want a new supplier, I'll sell you all the blum hinges you want for $20 a pair. I could use a new retirement account.
> ....As to your "design detail (heh heh)" I'll do you one better
*Now* we're getting somewhere.
Copper roofing nails and copper washers to make copper rivets contrasting with the (assumed) chrome-like plating on the hinge! The only tools required for working with rivet technology are a ball peen hammer and a big block of something steel to pound against on the other side. Even another heavy hammer as a "rivet buck" will work.
> , there would be no weight on it when the door was closed, only when it was opened.
As long as you never want to open your cabinet, I see absolutely no problem with this solution! (haha)
OK, back to reality.
Why don't we just make the sides of the door out of some plywood and use the melamine for the face of the door? Am I understanding this door situation correctly in that it's got shelves on the inside face?
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Oh, funny, funny.
I bought a bunch of much larger screws yesterday, they should work (she said). The storage on the inside comprises a couple of those plastic bin units with the flip-out bins in it. About 14-1/2" wide x 3" deep x 22" high.
On my way to Seattle, gotta catch a ferry!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If you're installing the piano hinges to the edge of the MDF or particle board, the tendency for these materials to split will cause the screws to loosen and fail. If you can, rabbeting and then gluing on a hardwood edge (maybe poplar, since it isn't as brittle as oak, maple or cherry) will give you something that will hold the screws as long as they're predrilled. If you want the edge to hold better without using biscuits, cut a groove in the edge and make a T shaped edge band. You get more strength from the additional surface area and the screws can go farther in while still in the hardwood. Cut the groove 1/3 of the thickness of the door and make sure the tongue is a good fit, but not so tight that it could split the MDF. If you have a piece of hardwood that's wide enough, cut a dado that's twice as wide + one blade thickness as the tongue is deep. After the dado is cut, go back to your regular blade and cut down the center of the dado so the tongue is as deep as you need. You now have one edge band. Next, cut the other band you created off of the board with the correct height from the shoulder to the outside edge. You can make 2 pieces with 3 cuts.
Forestgirl,
I'm not sure what size piano hinge you have, but if it is a 1 1/4 wide ( gives you 5/8 either side) you will likely tear out the melamine if it is on edge or face being that close to the edge with screws. If it is a particle board core the strength doesn't really matter if you are on the face or edge of the material being that close to the corner of the panel.
Here is a link to the institutional hinges I refered to earlier. I'm not sure if this will work for your mounting application, but they are durable, are nearly indestructable.
http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=915-121
Hey Gurl, after scrolling through all your replies to your problem, I can now put your prob at ease
Hey Gurl, After scrolling through all your replies to your piano problem,
I'm reminded of the old joke:
New York sightseer to professor of music :
" How do I get to Carnegie Hall?
Professor's reply:
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!
The solution to your problem hinges on (That's a pun)
your hardware and tools.
Attach the doors using standard screws BUT!
only attach every other screw at first
Once you are satisfied with fit and operation,
Remove all doors and using
one inch #8 flat head sheet metal screws, (With phillips heads)
Next, with a countersinker in your electric drill,
Countersink the the unused screw holes to
fit the new wider sheetmetal screws
Now, drill pilot holes using a 3/16" drill bit
and attach the new longer screws.
Next, remove the small original screws and repeat for the larger screws .
Be sure to drill pilot hole sat least 1" deep and
put soap or wax on the screws before applying
Use a phillips head ( Hand not power ) screwdriver.
Steinmetz
all
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled