Replies

1. 
   Eef | Jun 12, 2009 11:00pm | #1

   hey pack,
   welcome.
   i love that stuff. last winter it was in the high 80's here. i get very nervous doing complex assemblies when it's so hot. had never tried the longer open time glue. i glued up a 32-dovetail pine chest with time to spare. that glue is as strong as any yellow glue.
   best of luck,
   eef

1. 
   packitupfortoday | Jun 13, 2009 05:09am | #2

   thank you much for the response from first hand use. i had never really heard much or anything said of that type glue.

2. 
   roc | Jun 13, 2009 07:54am | #3

   I spent a winter experimenting with glues. Old glues, brand new glues, Gorilla. I had some old glue of my Dad's 10 year old white glue and brand new. I wasn't getting the open time I wanted. I ordered first one, then another, then another extended open time glues , PVA.

   In cooler weather, ~ 6Os F I did not find the open time significantly extended. Even shorter in a case or two.

   Not impressed. The extend seemed to just be a word on the label.

   Best extended open time for home shop use is Gorilla or epoxy.

   Regular old Elmers's Carpenter's glue is totally strong and great to work with and has a decent open time. Here are some good articles:

   http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Materials/MaterialsPDF.aspx?id=28897

   see also

   http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Materials/MaterialsPDF.aspx?id=24128

   There is an article I could not find on FWW on line called How Yellow Glue Works in the A Closer Look section of FWW Nov/Dec 2003 p 94 to p 98. The article is by Chris A. Minick. I could not bring it up on line.

   By the way nobody believes it but the ten year old Elmers's Carpenter's glue was just fine. I made lots of test joints of various open times, several of each. I used joints where the glue line was able to be stressed directly until failure and the failure was in the wood next to the glue line, ripping out wood fibers rather than failing across the glue line.

   I am not recommending Gorilla and epoxy for everything but the white/yellow glues are open for ten minutes or a bit more. the G and E are like half an hour or more depending on some factors. I have no experience with the Tite Bond III. I don't need the water proofness and as I said am just swimming in other glues I ordered for the tests.

   roc

   Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

   Edited 6/13/2009 12:56 am by roc

   Edited 6/13/2009 12:58 am by roc

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/13/2009 1:16 am by roc

1. 
   packitupfortoday | Jun 15, 2009 02:24am | #4

   thanks for the extended answer and the reading material on the subject. in my limited amount of woodworking and glueups i have seen a comedy of errors and things go together like a charm. glue ups and glue truely are subjective and finicky, the axe sharpening you site must be for reasons other than tree felling ie. proper preparation prior to assembly which may be more important than which glue.
   thank you for your time

1. 
   roc | Jun 15, 2009 08:34am | #5

   >Extended answerOh you are lucky. I gave you the condensed version. There is a small novel I wrote on the same subject here on FWW Knots a year a go or so. I am trying to not try peoples patience.: )>axe sharpening . . . . proper preparation prior to assembly which may be more important than which glue.The point of Abe's comment, in my view, is that not skipping important steps/factors is the key to using ones energy and resources wisely. Glue MAY or may not be one of those important steps/factors depending on the project. Think thrice, measure twice, cut once.Time and again at work I watch people put their weight on a tiny drill bit when cutting steel; pushing and pushing and running and running the power drill. Invariably the bit breaks and they mar the work. Grunting and forcing to save time. Time to learn how to sharpen the bit, time to buy sharp bits, time to sharpen a dull bit before use. But not doing those things does not keep the dull bit from breaking. The piper must be paid.A moment to observe the condition of the edges on the bit and if needed a few swipes on a diamond hone would save a bunch of that unpleasantness and would in the end save all the time of searching around for another bit ( dull of course ) that is not broken to use to " finish " the job.grump grump harumphrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 6/15/2009 1:38 am by roc

   Edited 6/15/2009 1:41 am by roc

2. 
   Samson | Jun 15, 2009 07:04pm | #7

   Just curious, did you try this?

   http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=45104&cat=1,110,42965&ap=1

1. 
   roc | Jun 16, 2009 05:28am | #8

   >Did you try Lee Valley Cabinetmaker's Glue 2002 GF<I did not try this glue. I was aware of it. I came to the realization that for the gap fill one can't beat epoxy so I did not pursue anything else. Epoxy is more stable ( does not shrink ) when it cures. Anything with water is going to shrink as it dries so it is hard to fill and shrink at the same time. ( : ]My fear was I would not get my dovetailed walnut cabinet parts together all the way and they would seize part way together. Having bulking/gap filling stuff in these did not seem like a good idea. I wanted to stick with PVA white glue specifically if I could because I like the stuff over all.For the gap filling I wanted to use that on my mongo size dovetails on my Klausz bench and the epoxy seemed ( and was ) ideal for this application. Very long open time, super strong, acts as a lubricant when assembling and closing the joint, filled any flaws on the unseen interior of these big joints turning the vise jaws into one big solid piece. Easier on the plane blades than hide glue or the urea glues which being a home shop dude I didn't really have any business getting into. I don't do bent laminations etc. though I am impressed with those who do this work !The Extends that I have include :• GarrettWade Slo-Set-Glue
   • Titebond Extend
   • Titebond II ExtendThere may be one other but this is what I saw just now on my glue shelf.I tried out the Old Brown Glue which is sort of in this category but is not PVArocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 6/15/2009 10:44 pm by roc

   Edited 6/15/2009 10:46 pm by roc

1. 
   9619 | Jun 16, 2009 04:14pm | #9

   Roc,
   For good open time, and for lots of other reasons, I like Liquid Hide Glue. I never did get a pot and make the hide glue from "scratch". Not much room in my shop, so on the recommendation of a friend, I tried the Liquid Hide Glue. Great open time. Excellent bonding. And like all hide glue, you can soften the glue and open a joint, and easily reglue. Alas and alack, it isn't waterproof, so I don't use it on outdoor furniture :-) What are your thoughts on this stuff?
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   roc | Jun 17, 2009 06:37am | #10

   >Liquid Hide Glue What are your thoughts on this stuff?Ounce for ounce compared to the stuff you cook up from pearls etc., the pre liquified variety in a bottle is allot more expensive. It is usable instantaneously so that is a big advantage if one is "spontaneous" or doesn't glue up every day.By the way I made an entry in my notes that reminds me that for a person who doesn't need a large quantity of the heat'em up glue as would fit in the familiar electric glue pots that a baby formula warmer is the way to go and just put the glue in a small jar in the warmer. I haven't made the purchase of a formula warmer yet but notes tell me it is handy for warming Tried and True oil for finishing so I might get one.Looking through my glue test notes I came across my tests with Elmer's Glue All. I tested EGA at 15 minutes and 30 minutes open time ! The strength tests were not measured with instruments. What I did was clamp the parts in simple lap joints for twenty four hours. Removed all the squeeze out so that was not a factor. Then to stress the joints I first did a gentle levering the parts back and forth along the stiff plane of the parts. If they popped apart they were rated failed. If they remained joined then since the wood parts I used were thin and flexible I flexed the parts by twisting the two parts against each other many many times. there were samples where the grain was aligned and others where the parts were joined cross grain like laying popsicle sticks across each other at ninety degrees.If they survived this then I went back to the original stiff plane stressing as if using hand hedge clippers and force the parts until they broke. If they put up a good fight and broke at the glue line I gave a " plenty strong " rating. If they broke other than near the joint or broke at the joint but there was wood fibers torn out all next to the glue line but the glue line was still intact I gave an "ultimate" rating.The Elmer's Glue All got "ultimate" on some of the samples that were joined cross grain even after 30 minutes open time ! This glue was not new it was several years old !How about that. And I am sure this glue cost next to nothing at the hardware store.Semi scientific I admit but there it is. Notes say I conducted this portion of the test 4-16-06 and the ambient temp was kept at 65 ° F. Every part was freshly sanded and dust removed just before glue was applied.I found no test info for the liquid hide glue. I remember not being all that impressed with it for some reason. Probably once i figured the price per ounce I just stopped there. Sorry to be kind of half a$$ed but that is what I came up with from looking in my files and finding no test. I probably got burned out by the time i got the liquid hide glue and just made some quick tests and was satisfied that is was as strong as the heat 'em up stuff and figured I would use it for special needs but not as my main glue.I just went to the shop to look see if I put notes with the liquid hide glue. There were none but i dated the bottle 3-07 so that was well after my test period so apparently I never got around to an official test. Here is why . . . the price for 5 fluid oz is $8.99 ! ! !WHAT ARE THEY KIDDING ? ? ?Gorilla glue isn't that expensive ! Until it thickens and I have to through out half the bottle. I don't know which glue dies first on the shelf. This Old Brown Glue is still very runny after two years so maybe it is cheeper than Gorilla.Haven't used it since I got it. Would be nice cause wouldn't stain wood and show under the finish like the white glue.By the way I bet that Elmer's Glue All was all of $1.25 when I got it many years ago and about twice as many ounces in the bottle.Well that is all I got on that topic.Take care MelrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

   Edited 6/16/2009 11:55 pm by roc

2. 
   9619 | Jun 17, 2009 01:39pm | #11

   Roc,
   You really did a lot of work on the glue test. Thanks for the info. FWW also did a glue test, and the Liquid Hide Glue rated extremely well. THey said they were surprised. I originally got the idea from a friend who works at Woodcraft who does A LOT of fixing of antiques. He uses the stuff almost exclusively. I see his work, and he does good work. I use Elmers GlueAll as well. It is cheap, has good open time and works like a charm.So what about cost. As far as I am concerned, they both cost just about nothing. It is not worth considering the cost of either jar of glue, when I think of the cost of the wood, the accessories, my tools and my time. I don't use enough of the Liquid Hide Glue to use up the jar before it's year is up. Heck, it is less than a board foot of many woods. When I look at the cost of filling up a tank of gas or of going out to eat, a jar of Liquid Hide Glue is infinitesimal, IMHO. The fact that we are both blind men looking at an elephant with our canes, and we see different things, makes life interesting. Keep up the great work. You make life on Knots very interesting.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

3. 
   roc | Jun 17, 2009 06:03pm | #12

   Two pennies is only twice as much as one penny.That is a good point you have there ! It isn't like we are veneering with the stuff.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

4. 
   9619 | Jun 17, 2009 06:25pm | #13

   Roc,

   You are a pretty reasonable guy.

   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

5. 
   roc | Jun 18, 2009 08:50am | #14

   Nah dude nah . . . I am just hypnotized by your smooth rap. ^  ^
   @ @
      ^
    ____rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

   Edited 6/18/2009 1:56 am by roc

3. 
   bones | Jun 15, 2009 05:42pm | #6

   It's all I use if the glue up is complicated at all.  It never fails your hallin butt to get it done before it tacks up.  I'm a one man show so I'd be dead without it.  Once set no difference.  JM2CW.

   The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus