Replies

1. 
   MarkRD | Apr 03, 2005 08:25pm | #1

   Have you looked at the sawstop? http://www.sawstop.com. Nice looking machine.

   Mark

   (and no, I don't work for them)

   BTW there was a good thread on saw stop saws in "tool talk" last week.

   Use the advanced search to find it.

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

2. 
   Tao | Apr 03, 2005 09:17pm | #2

   If you want a traditional 10" American pattern cabinet saw, I don't think you can do better than a PM66.  If you want something more substantial, you can get a used PM68 (12") for a little more than a new 66.  There are also industrial saws like Moak, Tannewitz, Northfield, etc., but unless you really need them for heavy duty round the clock use, I'd give them a pass.

   That being said, I have a 66, but if I had it to do over and could find the room, I'd get an Altendorf or Mini-Max slider. 

   Michael R

3. 
   ring | Apr 04, 2005 08:12pm | #3

   adastra,

   I've had a sliding carriage saw from SCM(Italia) for 10 years now, and would never ever go back.  I might trade up for the Altendorf, which IMHO is the Rolls Royce of tablesaws, but the SCMI is a great machine.  If you are doing WW for a living,  just find the space somehow.  I promise you will not regret it.

   DR

1. 
   sharp | Apr 04, 2005 08:54pm | #4

   is the Altendorf better than a felder?

1. 
   RickL | Apr 04, 2005 11:34pm | #6

   Altendorf is better than a Felder and Martin is better than an Altendorf. Maybe not necessarily better but all are priced accordingly with Martin the most.  Just installed a Paolini 8' slider. Nice unit for $11,000. Plenty of sliders around in the 4' range. Minimax, Robland, Kufo, Rojek, Felder, Knapp, etc. You shouldn't even consider getting a saw that wasn't a slider if you do it for a living.

2. 
   adastra | Apr 04, 2005 10:26pm | #5

   No need to convince, I worked in a shop with a big Euro slider and it was fantastic for sheetwork or large panels. But I'm trying to equip a furniture shop and not tool up for cabinetwork.I have found the more I chase cabinets the less furniture I do and the less I want to woodwork in general.That approach doesn't make good business sense I know, but the thought of doing kitchens the rest of my life is enough to get me out of woodworking. Some people like it; I don't.Thats the only reason I wouldn't place a Euroslider over American style. I can make an American work if I have to but prefer not to be sizing stacks of ply, mdf, or melamine. And I don't want the temptation.

1. 
   ring | Apr 05, 2005 06:43pm | #7

   adastra,

   Well, ...if you really want to suffer that's your prerogative.

   Seriously though, I think the sliders have 2 huge advantages.   Of course the main thing is cutting panels of all types.  But even gluing up a tabletop, I  go right from the saw to glueup; can't remember the last time I used the jointer for this.  With a good blade in the saw I can rip  8/4 hardwood planks as long as 10' and they're ready for glueing.  What's more, I can do it myself on the TS, but straightening a really heavy plank like that over the jointer takes 2 people to get it right.

   Basically, in an American TS you are going to use the slots in the top to get a mediocre approximation of the slide you don't have - crosscuts, miters, etc.  If that makes you feel that you're resisting temptation, well, what more can I say?

   hope you find a good saw whatever you decide.  Maybe leave things open and see what fate brings to the doorstep?

   DR 

    

1. 
   adastra | Apr 05, 2005 11:03pm | #8

   Thanks, sound advice.I'm curious. Are you saying you rip planks or only post glue-up panels on a Euro slider? Eliminating steps for panel prep is something I hadn't considered and would definitely be a timesaver.I seem to remember it being a little difficult to control lengthwise cuts on a slider, even with a stopblock. Wish I could remember the brand we used, but I think it was an SCMS or Felder, its been about three years now. It was great to use, those linear bearings really took a lot of the grunt out of it.But I rarely used it building chairs (only for blanks to make slip seats) so didn't really build an attachment to it.I have done some looking and there are some smaller used Euro sliders that fall into the high end of realistic budget. But then I worry about buying the low-end of that design and getting performance that is disappointing.I always equated the sliders with cabinet work. But I will rethink how useful it could be for furniture scale casework.Anyhow you have given me something to consider and I will keep my mind open. I'm thinking 6-12 months in advance. I usually like to make the decision far ahead of time and then wait for opportunity.

1. 
   jimmyk | Apr 06, 2005 01:53pm | #9

   "I have done some looking and there are some smaller used Euro sliders that fall into the high end of realistic budget. But then I worry about buying the low-end of that design and getting performance that is disappointing." The cheapest Euro saw will still out perform even the most expensive American design saw.Molten

2. 
   macalex | Apr 06, 2005 02:35pm | #10

   "The cheapest Euro saw will still out perform even the most expensive American design saw"

   Exactly.

   Here's a provocative statement: There's nothing you can do on a table saw that can't be done better/faster on a slider.

   Comment?

   MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking

3. 
   SgianDubh | Apr 06, 2005 02:40pm | #11

   Actually, the cheapest Euro saws are pretty nasty and useless, just like the cheapest US pattern of saws.

   And you can't use a dado blade with almost all European sliding table saw-- or at east you can't in Europe although some versions sold to the US market are modified so that a dado blade will go on.

   My Wadkin when I lived in the US was modified by the maker to take one, although I've never had any need to use a dado blade because I can accomplish much the same result by other means. Slainte.

   RJFurniture

   Edited 4/6/2005 7:56 am ET by Sgian Dubh

4. 
   ring | Apr 06, 2005 06:01pm | #12

   adastra,

   I see that there's some strong opinions out there, not just my own.  To be fair, I would consider keeping the cost and space problem down by buying a smaller size slider, but not to get a cheap quality machine.

   About ripping - I rip everything on the TS except resawing that has to be done on the bandsaw.  I admit that we do a lot of kitchens in our shop, but every day there is also a tabletop or solid wood shelves or some item that needs to be glued up from narrow planks.  Even preparing material for the panels in frame and panel doors - after planing to thickness we rip on the TS and glue up.  As I said, I never use the jointer for edges anymore.

   good luck,

   DR

4. 
   IronDog | Apr 07, 2005 01:21am | #13

   Hi,

   I have a fairly low end SCMI sliding panel saw (doesn'nt take a Dado set) and a fairly low end Rojek which does take a dado set.
   Both are better than a Delta Unisaw or PM 66 for a variety of reasons.
   They both take a scoring blade which can be helpful if you are working with nicely veneered panels, the dust collection is generally better in Euro saws and you have the nice sliding tables. BTW the sliding tables can take hours to tweak into cutting smoothly and squarely.

   I would take a look at purchasing one of these saws used. You'll save a lot of dough most likely. Just do a google on used woodworking equipment and you'll find a lot of them.

   Good luck!

   Tom

5. 
   Bioman | Apr 07, 2005 04:10am | #14

   There are a lot of very nice used European units to be had on e-bay and from Ex Factory in the $3,000 and up range depending on age and features; Griggio, Robland, SCMI, SAC, Knapp, Felder etc., etc..  You can't go wrong with any of these providing it is in good shape.

   Get one with a slider, youll never regret it..

   I recently purchased a new Knapp with 10' Slider and scoring unit.  Very, very happy.  Built like a brick-s**t house and as accurate as you can imagine.

   Would have preferred an Altendorf or a Martin, but did not want to pay $15,000 to $20,000 more for the same features...

   If space is an issue, Mini-Max makes nicely priced combination units that are affordable...well sort of, think of it as car payments....

   Feel free to e-mail if you like, I spent quite a while myself, and sought out advise before arriving at what was best for my circumstances.

    

1. 
   adastra | Apr 07, 2005 05:50am | #15

   Altendorf. That's what we had in the old shop.And it was a great machine.

   Edited 4/6/2005 10:52 pm ET by adastra

6. 
   Snikare | Apr 07, 2005 08:45am | #16

   Honestly, I just traded up my PM 66 to a jet sliding table cabinet saw.  I would have gone for a Felder but it was a little out of my budget just now.  I needed a sliding table, but also didn't want the granduer of the Euro style tables.  With the jet saw, I got a moderate slider, large enough to rip a full sheet of ply, the 3 Hp motor, and the cabinet like on my PM 66.  It's virtualy the same saw, with a sliding table attachment.  While you're at it trade the beseymer fence for a Delta Unifence, it fits beautifuly and works much nicer than those mdf fences that it comes with.