I built a cabinet with a drawer that is about 18 x 14 in front and fits like a piston. The rush of air as it opens and closes dampens the movement of the drawer and actuall requires a bit of force ot open it. I tried to alleviate this by drilling some 3/8 inch holes in the back of the case, but this helped only a little. I was going to cut a cove in the top of the drawer back to let more air in. I really don’t think friction is the issue. Any other suggestions?
Jay Stallman
Replies
Now that's a well fitted drawer!
Jayst it seems to me that the large size of the drawer front is what's causing the problem, the amount of air that it moves is making it difficult. (Something about the pressure increasing by the square of the surface area comes to mind.) Is the back of the drawer the same height as the front? If so, reducing this height should alleviate the situation. As soon as the drawer front passes the face frame when opening, the back of the drawer will no longer be applying "suction." If it is already smaller, then there is a friction problem that will have to dealt with.
Hope this helps,
Kell
It must be the back of the drawer applying the suction upon opening and the positive pressure upon closing, since both occur when the drawer fronm is extended beyond the case. I'll try lowering the drawer back a litttle so air can rush over the top.
David Charlesworth suggests that to avoid this, cut the back of the drawer to a height slightly below that of the sides, champhering the back corners of the sides into the back. In addition, the upper edge of the back should be rounded over to smooth the airflow over it.
I can't speak from experience whether it works or not, I've yet to achieve tolerances that tight...
Yes Mike, what you decribe generally works pretty well. Air at the back of the drawer can escape over the top of the back and out towards the front. However, if you have a nest of traditional drawers all freshly made, snug fitting, smooth running, in good working order, and all empty, with a bit of luck if you close any one drawer quickly, then maybe one or two elsewhere in the stack will pop out. Loading the drawers prevents that happening, ha, ha.
Here's a typical hand made drawer configuration with dovetails, reduced height back, and a typical slip profile (there are other slip patterns) and a drawer bottom that slips in after drawer glue-up. Slainte.View Image<p Website
Richard...
forgive my blonde question, but why does a drawer need slips?.. I've always used Norm Abrams method; simply mill a dado into the front / sides
It's really just a case of aesthetics, and to some extent practicality, Mike. A typical solid wood (as opposed to man made board which comes in standard sizes) small'ish traditional drawer will have sides that are about 8- 10 mm thick-- that's about 3/8" or less for the metrically challenged. In the first place, this makes cutting the dovetails easier-- less thickness to saw through, and saves wood, and a slim side is generally considered aesthetically more attractive than a clunky looking thick side at about 5/8" or more.
It's difficult to work a suitably deep groove in a side about 3/8" thick, so a slip is needed to carry the drawer bottom. Also, a thin side doesn't reduced storage capacity any more than necessary, and from a structural point of view a thin side is as strong as a thick side so long as it is locked securely at each corner of the drawer box (with dovetails, for instance.)
The slips provide a wider bearing surface and wearing surface that that adds longevity to the drawer box. Slips, in the trade, are considered to be maintenance items, like brake pads in a car. Every now and then it's necessary to remove the worn slips (causing the drawer to be sloppy in its opening) and replace them with new ones. The bottom of the sides will be worn too, but from a practical point of view the slips only need to be replaced, but it's better to replace the bottom edge of the drawer side too.
I don't think it's one of these things that changes the world or anything, but if a customer sees a completely traditional drawer with slips as opposed to a drawer where the bottom is merely grooved into the sides, they realise that they've just seen a piece of superior craftsmanship, and a superior item of furniture. But it does matter which piece of furniture such attention to detail is lavished upon. I wouldn't waste my time constructing such drawers for a typical kitchen job. The ply and simple housings and grooves are more than good enough for that kind of work-- which will all be ripped out and remodelled in about ten years anyway, ha, ha. Slainte.
<p href="http://r-gjones.laof.home.att.net/" Website
Edited 7/24/2003 10:26:01 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Sgian,
As usual, your comments are very timely as I am about to build a small drawer of cherry for a shaker piece. What material is used for the slip?...and how is it affixed to the draw?...and does that mean the draw bottom just butts up against the draw sides? thanks
BG,
The 2nd volume of David Charlesworth's Furniture Making Techniques has a complete description of traditional drawer construction and fitting, including the use of drawer slips. He also discusses the same rounding of the rear sides and back, as described above. Amazon has it for $12.50. It's worth four times the price.
Cheers,
Greg
Greg,
Good to know about the book....and a decent price. You may have noticed on the home page here that one of the editors went off to England to study with Charles for a week ..hand planes, using and tuning. So far the editor has only written a tease article...if he doesn't go into great detail soon about his experience I'm getting in the car and heading to Taunton
BG, usually, the drawer slip most commonly matches the drawer side material. If you use a white oak for the sides, you usually use white oak for the slips-- but it doesn't have to be.
The slip has a groove worked along its inside edge to carry the drawer bottom. At the front, a wee tenon is cut in line with the worked groove in the slip that locates it accurately to the matching draw front groove. At the back of the slip a notch is cut from the top face down to a point level with the top edge of the grooove in the slip, and this positions it precisely under the drawer back allowing the drawer bottom to slide in later. The slip is simply glued in place to the drawer side-- rememeber its position is defined by the tenon at the front, and the notch cut in it at the back
Here's a couple of images that might help. The profiles might differ a but from my original sketch, but the principle is essentially the same. Slainte.
<p Website
Sgian,
Thank you, that is very helpful and quite fascinating. Based on your drawing and Eddie's comment about 3/4" being the traditional height, is it fair to assume 3/4x 3/4" stock or if the width is 1/2" or 5/8" they too will work?
One last question if I may, is it traditional to run a rabbit on the front of the draw bottom? thanks
BG, 3/4" square is about right, but you can be a little flexible. Set the groove a bit up from centre, maybe a fat 1/16" up.
There are different approaches to drawer bottom making depending on what look you're after, and I've been guilty of putting up drawings for different configurations which may have confused you. The first drawings that I added to my original post in this thread show a typical slip for a ~6 mm (1/4") drawer bottom. It's the same pattern as the click on image added here-- I found another sketch that should help clarify what I'm talking about.
In this configuration, you can see a wee tenon worked at the front of the slip in line with the groove. This locates the slip accurately at the front into the matching groove in the drawer front. At the back of the slip a notch is cut from the top face down to the top of the worked groove which locates the slip accurately under the drawer back. A quarter round (or other moulding) is usually worked on the inside top edge, and the slip sits a little proud of the drawer bottom.
Okay, I'll post this example and respond in a separate post with more information. This should help keep things clear. Remember that this slip pattern goes with the sketches in my first post, so you can scroll up to that to review it all. Slainte.<p Website
I don't get why you bother to round over or bead the slip, since it's hidden under the drawer bottom. Could you explain this? Thanks
Jay
Jayst,
If you look carefully you'll see the draw bottom butts up against the bead detail in the slip.....just one of those little subtle things that lets the knowledgeable know its hand made.
In many of the older homes here in the Boston area you'll find all sorts of little oddities that the home owner would employ to communicate with his neighbor a piece of information....eg. a turn on the kneul (sp?) post (bannister to the upstairs) meant the mortgage on the house was paid.
BG-
Piston fits and " just one of those subtle little things etc".
A couple of years ago I made a 6 board blanket chest.Actually,I guess it could be called a one board chest because I made it from one poplar plank I had, 21" wide and 14 or 16 ft. long. Then I made a tray for the inside. When the tray was finished I took it over and set it in the top of the chest. Nothing happened. It didn't go. I thought "jeeze,I made it a tad to big". It sat there momentarily and then gently floated downward on a cushion of air. It brings a smile to me old face whenever I set it in the chest. Of course that's with the tray empty. I don't expect that to happen when the tray is loaded. But it's "one of those subtle little things" that someone will notice one day.Be not afraid of going slowly. Be afraid only of standing still. chinese proverb
lostarrow,
"then gently floated downward on a cushion of air."
that certainly deserves an atta-boy..
Actually, JAYST, the wee moulding on the inside top edge of the slip is on the top side of the drawer bottom, not on the underside as you seem to have read the sketch. So, it is visible, as long as the drawer is empty, or perhaps more importantly from the makers point view, it's visible in a newly delivered item of over-priced furniture, ha, ha.
And there are practical reasons for including the moulding-- a smooth transition from one surface to the next, no harsh sharp corner on which to skin a knuckle, and the usual aesthetic enhancement that goes with attention to detail rather than a slap-dash approach. Beautiful and meticulously made drawers are somehow appropriate to fine furniture, whereas an every expense spared kitchen job only needs some ply nailed together. Slainte.<p href="http://r-gjones.laof.home.att.net/" Website
Thanks a lot. I'm sorry I misinterpreted the drawing. It's quite clear now, and a nice touch. I have never used slips, and have not found the bottoms to fall out of the dado directly in the drawer sides. Nor have I had a piece where the bottom edge of the drawer wears out (that I know of). How often do you take the trouble to do the extra joinery?
jay
Whenever I find a customer willing to pay for it, Jayst, ha, ha---ha, ha, ha. Remember though that I did say earlier that a finely made drawer will have sides no more than about 3/8" thick. That's not enough thickness in which to work a groove that will successfully hold the bottom in place.
It's normal to repair the slips about once every 50-- 100 years in finely made furniture. It's doubtful that I'll get a piece I made back into my workshop for the repairs to the slips. That' a job for the next generation of cabinetmakers, or perhaps the one beyond that. Slainte.<p href="http://r-gjones.laof.home.att.net/" Website
Sgian,
Okay, now for one of my weird questions. The slip, when attached, is either flush or slightly proud of the draw sides bottom....thereby sharing the ware and tear on the bottom of the draw. The side has been dovetailed into the front using half blind dovetails....so from the side view you you can't see the slip.
Why not double rabbit the slip (the slip would look like a upside down 'T')and have the draw side bottom sit on the slip....thereby ending the dovetails about 3/4" short of the front face.
The reason I'm asking is because I have some nice 4 1/4" wide cherry stock but my draw front is 4 3/4". I coud use different stock...but....or I could join a couple pieces and cut to 4 3/4". I wondering, though, if I could use the slip idea to make up for the shortfall without making ot look stupid.
thanks
Correct in your first paragraph, BG-- no you can't see the slip when viewing the drawer from the side.
I see what you're trying to do in your second question, but off the top of my head I don't think it would make for easy construction. You would need to glue the bottom edge of the drawer side to the top face of the extra wide slip, and it may not be easy to align the two parts. If they move, the groove in the slip may not end up paralell with the faces of the side.
But as I was typing the previous paragraph it crossed my mind that if I were to countenance that method of construction at all, I'd work a rebate into the top edge of the slip to locate the side accurately. I still don't think I'd do it, but I admit I'm not thinking deeply about the subject, ha, ha. Slainte.<p href="http://r-gjones.laof.home.att.net/" Website
Sgian,
Okay, so it's not a sin or anything..right? Yes, my thought was to rebate both sides of the slip (ie. upside down 'T') thereby making it easier to attach the side and provide strength. That part isn't too hard to visualluize...however, it gets tricky when I try to decide if the slip would also need to be dovetailed into the front (half blind dovetails)...or do I just leave the last 1/2-3/4" of the front face un-dovetailed and maybe one of those wee tennons between the slip and front face...
I know your a night person...thinking in the morning can hurt....I doubt that I'm the first one to think of something like this...chances are if your not familiar with this design...the concept was thrown out many many years ago....
Hmm, interesting, BG. I'm not sure that you'd need to work an upside down T moulding in a slip, maybe just a rabbet for the side to be located accurately to the slip.
I guess that in theory you really ought to dovetail a portion of the slip into the drawer front using what you describe, but now you're getting complicated. I suspect that the old method of fitting the slip later will be the easiest option in that it offers the best compromise between technical sophistication, and simple practicality. I've heard the expression, KISS-- keep it simple, stupid, and this might apply here, even though a standard hand dovetailed box is complex enough. Slainte.Website
Sgian,
As it is turning out, I have been able to mill my recycled cherry molding stock into sufficient width, at a fat 3/8" thickness, for the draw sides...so I'll be able to use a traditional slip rather than making it more complicated. Orginally, I thought my stock would be a 1/2" short in its width and that is why I was considering using the modified slip to make up for the shortfall.
Yes, my children are all devotees of the KISS method...why put something in a draw or closet when there is a perfectly good floor nearby to accomodate their needs...sigh.
Okey, dokey, BG, part two of the reply. I"ll add the titbit in that it's normal for the drawer bottom grain to run from side to side allowing for expansion and contraction of a solid wood part at the back of the drawer.
An alternative configuration is for a flush drawer bottom, i.e., one where the slip doesn't sit proud. For this the slip dimensions are about the same, with a 6mm groove worked slightly up from centre. Now you need a drawer bottom about 12 mm thick with a 6mm (minus) tongue worked at either end of it on the bottom face-- remember the grain of a bottom runs side to side.
Typical in this configuration is to offset the groove in the drawer front-- it's raised so that the top face of the drawer bottom is in line with the top of the drawer front groove. This is done so that if there is any shrinkage at the front of a solid wood bottom, a crack doesn't appear down which objects can fall. So in this case, you now need a rebate (rabbet) worked on the bottom edge of the bottom to produce an upper tongue to fit.
So to repeat, along the sides, the drawer bottom has a bottom protruding tongue. At the drawer front, the tongue is on the top face of the bottom-- they switch faces.
Lastly, the wee tenon at the front in this type of slip is set up from the groove to match the groove in the drawer front. At the back, the slip is not notched, but the bottom of the drawer back does rest on it. The moulding worked on the inside corner of the slip is usually something like the bead and quirk shown, but it can be left square, or another pattern.
Here are the relevant sketches again for this configuration. This should make stuff clear, I hope. Slainte.<p Website
Sgian,
Your description and drawings are actually quite clear and fascinating...I'm even getting the mm stuff, don't need a cheat sheet. I was kinda hoping the bead detail was a slip of your pen...no such luck. I'm going to try this ...without the bead detail...see how many ways I can screw it up. Thanks
I fit the drawer front to the case opening and do the same with the back, on small drawers. The case should be square, but in a large drawer I must admit I often have a slight asymmetry in one side or another. A few passes of a plane adjust this. The sides are also fit to the case opening. As I'm writing this, I realize that this method is best for small drawers, but that seasonal movement could make the drawers bind if the tolerances are too close. Since these drawers were made in the summer, at relatively higher humidity, they should be at their widest and should shrink in the winter. If the piece were made in the winter, you would have to fit the drawers about 1/16 to 1/8 smaller than the case opening. Any comments on that idea?
Jay
Hi Jay,
As usual, Richard's answer (Sgian Dubh) is accurate and concise. It's the same as the one I was going to give you, but far more eloquent.
Here in Australia, trade are trained to have the drawer back in a traditional drawer cut to the following 'rule'. Sgian's answer could have easily come from my textbook.
Bottom edge of drawer back (= top of groove for drawer bottom) set 19mm (3/4") off bottom edge of drawer side.
Top edge of drawer back to be rounded and set 6mm (1/4") off top edge of drawer side.
There is another answer too, which may avoid you fiddling with the drawers, if you can get any 6" x 4" vents (fully meshed to keep out vermin), fit one or two of these into the back panel of the carcase, providing that the rear of the carcase is hidden and not frame and panel construction. The depth of these vents may prove to be an issue if you've set the drawers to be absolutely full depth of the carcase but.
The distances mentioned have been standard in UK (and hence Australia) for most of last century and avoid the effect you describe.
As an aside (edit), most of the air should be running out from under the drawer bottom until the drawer front meets the drawer blade/top rail and seals off this opening - have you got the drawer bottom flush with the bottom of the drawer?
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 7/26/2003 2:20:09 AM ET by eddie (aust)
My drawer bottom is made with 1/4 birch plywood in this case (Not meant to be the finest piece of furniture. It's actually a cabinet to be used in a barn for horse tack. I made it nicer than one would usually be made with a through dovetail carcase, and frame and panel doors.) The bottom of the bottom is 1/4 inch up from the bottom of the drawer sides, and is rabetted into the sides directly, without a slip. In order for air to rush under the bottom, I would think Iwill need to cut a cove in the bottom of the back (thereby raising it) rather than lowering the top of the drawer back. Is that correct?
The vent in the back could work, and that's why I drilled holes, but the holes don't let enough air flow, so I would have to cut the larger 4x6 opening. Even with screens, there is a worry about critters gnawing through.
Jay
Jay,
Yes, you could do that.
Traditional drawer construction is to have the drawer bottom slide into the groove under the drawer back, and screw the drawer bottom into the drawer back.
You'll probably need to relieve under the drawer bottom first and then along the top if you need to.
Cheers,
eddie
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