I want to add a dust collection capacity to my very small shop: 10 x 20 feet. One option is to install a stationary system with duct work leading to primary machines, but that may be overkill. Another option is an Oneida Mini-Gorilla (1.5 hp) or other portable systems in the 1/5 or 2 hp range. One particular problem I want to address is the dust kickback from my table saw. I have an enclosed Delta unisaw and need a system powerful enough to pull the dust back into the cabinet and into the collection system. I would value any suggestions from others who may have faced this situation.
David
Replies
If I can tag along with this, what do people think of the new Delta 1hp systems (50-720 and 50-720CT 1 HP and 650CFM)? Are they too small to do a decent job? Delta also seems to have an older model 50-760 that is 1.5 HP and 1200 CFM. Why make a newer model with less HP and fewer CFM? Like dshover my shop is pretty small 10X16 and I'm almost always running only one tool at a time.
Rigth now just about anything is going to be better than what I've got, which is a shop vac I hook up to cleanup rather than keep the mess down.
David, the size of the shop is not necessarily the determining factor: it is more a factor of the type and manner in which you use your machines and your budget. Also, you want the best filtering capacity possible. If you frequently have two running, say bouncing back and forth from the TS to the RAS or from the jointer/planner abck to the TS then a 2hp with an appropriately sized blower is probably the minimum to use. Other wise, a 1.5 Oneida system will probably work just fine. One observation about shifting dust collection among machines using a portable unit,over time you will probably be less diligent and skip using the DC when you should since it is a PITA to constantly shift the line around. And, having a hose laying on the floor is an invitation to an accident.
To you comment regarding kickback of dust from your TS blade: you won't eliminate this without a combination of good CFM to the cabinet and an overhead blade guard/dust collector. This is particularly germane if you are using a zero tolerance throat plate. The more you close down the air space around the blade the more you reduce the air flow down into the cabinet.
DOug
Doug, thanks very much. David
David,
I installed a 1 1/2 Jet with canister about a year ago. My shop is small (about 180sq.ft.)and it was tough to give up the space. Ducting did not make much sense in my shop because everything except the TS and workbench needs to be moved around most of the time to make stuff anyways. Also everything is a step away and literally takes 3 seconds to hook up. Lastly, I usually move from one machine to another hardly ever need two machines hooked up at the same time.
The Jet works fairly well; fantastic on the planer, okay on TS and router, lousy on the bandsaw. The truth is the power tools are poorly designed for dust collection...except the planer ( I don't have a jointer). What was the big surprise was how much cleaner the air was...makes the whole thing more than worth it.
I get more dust kickback from the TS..but I'll live with that. Personally I don't see the value of a Gorilla type system for a small shop. The key advantage is emptying the bag and that is not so much in a small shop...but I'm waiting to learn.
After installation I went and got better filters for the shop vac, I use that for clean up and workbench stuff. I'm pleased so far.
I have just under 1000 SF and I get buy with the Jet 1.5 HP canister - though I would love to get a cyclone.
I started with a 1 HP jet and quickly wanted to upgrade. It simply did not have enough power to keep up with the demands of my jointer and plainer. Fortunately, I was able to sell it and land the Jet 1.5 unit, with canister, for $180.00... viva la Craigslist!
I currently have a 10" SC Jointer, 3 HP SawStop, 18" BS, Performax 16/32, 3 HP Shaper, Router Table and a 12" plainer and have no problems. However, DC above the TS, as mentioned earlier, will still require an additional collection point.
A 2HP unit would be nice but they jump to 220V... so be sure to consider your electrical needs.
I bought the Delta 50-760 and it sucks! I mean that in a very positive way.
My small woodshop (16' x 20') is just starting to get back to a point that it's usable for the fun stuff - woodworking. Got the outfeed table roughed in and new router table in the works. Got an older Unisaw and kept the old Delta contractors saw and here you can see both are hooked up to the 50-760 and blast gated.
I use one leg off the Y for permanent machines 2 tablesaws and jointer and the other to connect to the roamers, i.e. bandsaw, planer, cutoff saw and eventually the router table, to be the right extension wing of the Unisaw. Will be adding an overhead blade guard/dust collection point very soon. It will be made to service both tablesaws, I hope.
The DC is on wheels but I move it around very little. In addition to the DC I also have an air filtration unit mounted up over the saws. This works very well and if I know I'm going to be making lots of dust I turn it on low and leave it on while I'm working. I found that it keeps the air circulating and shortens the warmup time to heat the shop.
I've had zero issues with this system and it cost less than $700 for both units and all the ducting. Sorry I don't have more pics to show you folks but they will be forthcoming soon. Also, if ye git a chance have a look at The Woodworking Life on this site as I put a more thorough discussion of the system on there. It's kinda old so you may havta poke around a bit.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Oooops, forgot the pics.
:-()
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And
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I kept this run as short as possible for best collection and CFM. The jointer is at the far end and is less than 8' away from the DC. The other hose draped over the DC is gated also and I use that to connect to the planer, chopsaw, BS and most likely it will service the overhead bladeguard/DC.
Hope this helps,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You may also want to consider an overhead Air Filtration Unit. I just installed a Jet AFS-1000B in my shop and it has made all the difference in the world in terms of air quality. Health-wise, you should be concerned about the smaller particles (less than 1 micron in size). There are many articles out there that indicate it's the smaller particles that do the damage in your respiratory system. The larger ones are more of a nuisance factor. Just something to consider. I haven't seen any recomendations to date regarding dust collection systems that did not advocate using both dust collector and air filtration for optimal results.
I've been struggling with the same thing as the OP except my shop (which is under construction) will be half the size. :P I originally wanted both a DC and an air filter but it looks like that's not going to be doable given the space and the low ceilings (in the basement).Based on what I've seen, most air filters will filter down to 1 micron which is similar to a dust collector. Wouldn't running the dust collector for a period of time after dust-making activity have the same effect (albeit possibly much louder)?If I could only have an air filter or DC, I'd probably take the latter and work hard to pick up as much dust at the source as possible.Whatever the case may be, I'd wear a respirator until the air quality is good enough. An air filter and DC will help to keep the shop clean but they won't do much to help your health until they've managed to actually cycle the air a sufficient number of times to get all the fines.
Good point on the air re-circulation. At the rated flow rates what you are really reducing is potential contact time with the fines in the air. In most cases for smaller shops complete recirculation should take less than 10 minutes for most models of Air Filtration units.
One side note, though, realize that the Filtration units can be mounted to the ceiling, wall, or sit as a stand alone fixture anyplace in your shop. Location will affect performance, however. I guess that's why most people mount them to the ceiling. Performance is undeniable though. Since installation, I have all but eliminated that fine layer of dust that magically appears on all of my equipment.
I'm not sure you could accomplish the exact same thing simply by running your dust collector for longer periods of time. Sure, you would have the flow rate, but it would be like trying to suck the fine dust out of the air through a straw. And, I'm not being critical here. I started out with the same optimistic persepctive you have. But, unfortunately a 4" diameter cross section just isn't enough to get you there.
You know what you might consider is making your own Air Filtration Unit. All they really are is a blower/motor assembly that pulls the air across a set of filters. A simple design might be to build a box with open ends (to whatever size your space can accommodate), install two good quality furnace airfilters on either of the open ends (maybe even in stages to give more surface area), and a 4" port to hook your dust collector up to. In that way, you would have your own home made air filtration unit powered by your dust collector.
Just a thought. And, it would be a cheap gamble.
I agree with you 100%. I was sweeping the basement the other day and there was dust and sawdust all over the place. Fine dust got kicked up into the air and then I quickly went to get my mask. After I vacuumed up everything, I let the vacuum run for about 20 to 30 minutes and it cleared the air up quite well (to my surprise).I may still end up with an air filter but it would have to be one of the smaller barrel types rather than the big ones that I originally wanted.I can't really comment on the straw analogy but my thinking is that if there is enough air velocity and volume, I would think it would have the same effect. Building an air filter is certainly not too hard and your suggestion is actually exactly what I was thinking of building. Family circumstances have forced me to get the basement finished so everything is in storage right and I'll have to wait to see what space there is in the tiny room to allow for the air filter.Thanks for the suggestion. :)
Thanks for the reply. I have a JDS overhead filter and it works very well. Combined with a powerful DC system I think I can get rid of most dust. Thanks again. David
Sorry to butt in and kinda change the subject to something I'm sure has already beet talked to death elsewhere (yes, but where?). Regarding the adverse effect of a zero clearance slot on dust collection, what actually the purpose of the narrow slot except to prevent thin cuts or slivers from falling through. What if you leave it thin at the front and the back and open it up in between. Assuming you keep the blade hight right for the slot length, would that help with the dust problem? Cutting MBF is the worst offender.
I think the ZCI is only to prevent tearout as you mention. Having a wider slot starting from behind the kerf should help with the dust collection but I think having to fix the blade height for a given slot length is probably a limitation that most people wouldn't really want to put up with.
I think a blade guard/DC hookup is the best all around for capturing tabletop dust from a TS. You'd still need DC underneath as well.
I've noticed that with a ZCI installed, most if not all the dust tends to collect behind the blade. With a blade guard/DC hookup I would think you'd capture nearly all the tabletop dust. The blade guard would also help to keep it contained to a small area too.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I have had the same problem with dust from a zero clearance plate. After following these discussions, I decided to try adapting my DC hose to the blade guard on my Craftsman TS. I used a Fazlok connector, carving it out to fit over the blade guard and cut a hole in the top of the blade guard. I used acrylic cement to hold it together and it has made a huge difference. The photos show it better.
I've been trying to think of a simple way to accomplish the same thing and I love what you've done with the bladeguard. I've printed the pictures you supplied and I'm going to create the identical system in my shop ASAP. Thanks much for your post and ideas.
Any other suggestions or things you would have done differently? Does it get nearly all the dust?
I'm glad you liked the idea. It was a quick and cheap fix with the materials I had on hand. It's hard to tell in the photos but I filled the gaps on either side of the coupler with small pieces of sheet acrylic to eliminate leaking air. The wire supports work well but the hose tends to pull to one side. It might be better to offset the wire over the guard to allow for that. It does seem to get almost all of the particle that used to fly out the front. I do have the 4" line running to the back of the cabinet also. It is easy to remove the setup quickly when I have to move to another machine.
This shop-made blade guard/dust collector has been referenced in previous posts and it probably bears repeating. I built this unit 4 or 5 years ago from the plans provided at http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/overarm_guard.shtml. My total cost was about $70 and a couple days of very enjoyable work. It has performed flawlessly.Doug
That's a very nice unit. The post was probably before I became aware of this site. Thanks for the reference.
I'm wondering if anyone has experience with "mini" wall mounted dust collectors on the market now that save floor space in smaller shop.I recently moved my shop into the house and my larger dust collector has no room in my new warm! shop. I noticed a couple of the wall mounted collecters: for example-- there is one available through Rockler(sku#25344 ) and another I noticed through Laguna -"Platinum Series 1 HP Mini Dust Collector" --- any thoughts?I mostly use bandsaw, scroll saw, flex shaft , belt and spindle sander.Thanks for your help!
I've been considering breaking down and making one of these. So much cheaper than the comercial versions... The only question is, has anybody had any otehr mounts than the ceiling? My ceiling is "un"-fortunatly ~12' high... Maybe it doesn't matter...
I've got the same Delta dust collector as you. I have a devil of a time changing bags. I've got the metal retaining band with the fold over clasp that holds the bag. It doesn't look like you have the same retaining band. Have you got a better system?
Yes, the bag has a springy metal band sewn into the bottom, which has to be pried inward to release. The photo may show it better. It is very nice to use. The lower, plastic bag has a similar band holding the top in place. You can just see it in the photo. I use masking tape to hold the bag in place while I wrestle the inner band into place. It has been much easier since I went to taping the plastic. I've only had it for 2 or 3 years, so it may be a modification in design.
Dennis
Dennis,
Regarding the inner band - I have the Delta 50-760 and am sure the same wrestling match happens with other DCs of similar design.
When emptying mine I found that if I pry the band away from the channel it sits in when engaged and push the band towards the center the opposite side tends to straighten just enough so I can grab it with my other hand. Reminds me of looping bandsaw blades. From there on out it's a snap - no pun intended unless yer hand slips and it gits away from ye.
I wear a mask when changing, just in case. <gr>
Top one (filter bag) works about the same way but gettin it apart is/can be a bit trying. Those bad boys are strong! I use a blunt ended LARGE screwdriver to get it started then push with my hand same as the bottom one above. After a few times it gets easy.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/11/2009 12:37 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Yeah, I wear a mask as well. I beat the heck out of the upper bag and let the dust settle to the bottom bag before I open it. Then I take my Rigid shopvac and clean off the inner surface to get the air flow back. The shopvac has a fine dust filter on it which I think gets most of the dust. Then after everything is assembled again I take the airhose and blow off everything in the shop (about 20' x 24'), turn on the overhead Jet air filtration system and leave for awhile. I only have to do that every few weeks.
Dennis
Are you happy with your jet air filtrations system? How small is the stuff it will trap? Have you got it hanging from the ceiling?
Yes, the Jet does a great job of cleaning the air. It is supposed to have a 1 micron filter. I bought the washable outer filter and it's pretty obvious what it collects that I was breathing before. I vacuum off the filter with my shop vac when it looks bad. I got a Dust Deputy to reduce the dust in the shop vac and it is great. I haven't cleaned the vac filter in months. It's a little awkward to move around and I had trouble making hose connections for the size ports and the DD. I will try to redesign the setup at some point. The Jet hangs from the ceiling with truck tie downs to minimize vibrations. It seems to work. I like the remote control and the timed run options.
Dennis
Dennis,
Sounds like we have similar setups. I have the delta 50-760 DC, JDS clone air cleaner and Shop Vac for general cleanup and aux for BS and other tools.
I haven't cleaned the filter bag on the DC except to whack the be jeepers outa it when emptying the collector bag. I understand that a dust cake develops inside the filter bag further enhancing the filtering it does.
Also want to outboard the DC to another room so any dust that gets through the filter bag doesn't get back into the woodshop. Given that the DC won't be in the woodshop I don't fins any advantage to having a cyclone. Next step B4 outboarding the DC is to add a trashcan cyclone separator though so as to extend the time dumping the collector bag.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I have read about the idea of leaving the dust layer in the bag, but I have no way of measuring air flow with and without the layer. I just figured that the 1 micron bag started out getting most everything while it was clean. Do you have any thoughts about how much reduction in air flow might be caused with the buildup of the dust layer?
Dennis
Dennis,
I have seen no appreciable difference in air flow with letting the cake build up, except when the collection bag gets nearly full. I believe that this is because there is less room for the exhaust air to go in the DC and so it creates a back pressure situation thus reducing air flow.
I'm guessing without any way of measuring it that the cake reduces but does not eliminate the 1 micron openings in the filter bag, allowing it to capture even finer particles of dust. It makes sense to me that the exhaust air needs somewhere to exit the system or else the back pressure will reduce air flow through the system.
In terms of air quality I use the woodshop and my lungs as my guage. Since installing the DC there is very little residual dust on surfaces in the woodshop and I'm no longer hacking and coughing.
Can I attribute this to the cake buildup? No, because I also installed an overhead air filtration unit, similar to your Jet Air Cleaner. This thing moves and purifies air throughout the woodshop so I think it's a combination of the two together.
Also adopting a regimen of turning on the air filter ahead of time when generating dust has made a world of difference. Before I had any dust management in the woodshop I wore a mask, and still do. B4 I could see the dust buildup on the mask, now there is barely any.
I think there are several key elements in an effective dust management system for a woodshop:
1. Capture as much as you can at the source.
2. Add an overhead air filter to circulate the air.
3. Use a ShopVac (or similar device) to augment other dust management systems you may have installed.
4. Wear a mask.
Another thing I think folks don't give a lot of notice to is sanding. Awww I'm only gonna sand for 5 minutes; I can't be bothered. Besides, It'll only take a minute to sand that oiece; what harm can it cause? I'm not just talking about power sanders.
My contention is that sanders are notorious for creating the most harmful dust - small particles. My solution to that is use of an effective downdraft table connected to the DC, connection of the ShopVac to the sander, wearing a mask and running the overhead air filter.
I can't wait to outboard the DC this spring. I'll gladly suffer the heat loss in winter to get as much dust out of the woodshop as I can. The added expense of a few extra gallons of heating fuel is a hell of a lot less than a lung replacement and that's the small change in the equation to me. Besides if it's that cold I can just do some carving in the hoosey.
Now ya want some cake with your ice cream? :-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/12/2009 6:03 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
Thanks for your info. It's a real chore to vacuum the inside of the bag, so I'll try skipping that step for awhile. The one weakness that I haven't addressed yet is sanding. I did build a downdraft cart, but I haven't used it much. I haven't done a lot of sanding, and when I wanted to hit a piece for a small job, it hasn't seemed worth the effort to hook up the cart; besides, it always is piled full of "stuff."
So I guess I'd better get it uncluttered. I do like to use a card scraper whenever I can. I'm developing my skills over the last couple of years mostly on built-in cabinets and cupboards for our new home. Most of my work is with birch plywood and solid face framing, so not a lot of sanding for furniture type things. I've learned a lot following Knots on many subjects and I appreciate everyone sharing information.
Thanks again, Dennis
Many thanks. The masking tape is a good idea. I'll try it next time I change the bag.
You know I think your retaining ring for the lower bag is different than mine. Mine is all on the outside with a fold over clasp.
I'll try again with this photo. I just got a new camera and had it set way too high. This should load faster.
Dennis
Ironically, the smaller the shop, the denser the dust in the air, as it is dispersed over a smaller area. You really have to make dust mitigation a priority in a small shop. If you have the means, put in a professional-level system--don't feel like you 'ought' to stick with something less.
Brian
Thanks much, David
Seems like we go over this time and time again.
1. Wood dust is a documented carcinogen.
2. Size of shop matters not. In fact the smaller the shop, the greater the danger. Dust from your table saw, mine, anyonesis the same, only the collection differs. Sizeof shop is irellevant.
3. In time, the fine dust will tear your lungs apart. Not if, but when.
4. Bill Pentz has a great web page discussing the basics of moving dust from work to the waste bin. Do not confuse this with vacuuming up the obvious heavy dust particles that land on the floor.
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
5. Study this information start to finish. Moving your dust away from you is a total installation, not hjust a blower, not just a filter or ducting. Everything has to be balanced.
6. Even with the best you think you need, allways wear a P100 face mask.
Don
Don, thanks for the tip. David
Hi David,
I have a similar sized shop (two of three car garage) and recently purchased a Jet 1.5 HP dust collector. After reading several articles on dust collection I decided to use the Jet as a portable dust collector to maintain a higher CFM. I use a 10' hose with a quick-connect slip fitting. It is very easy to move from tool-to-tool and does a very good job. I get virtually no dust from my table saw (a cabinet grade Jet). One area I would like to improve is to replace the bag with a filter. The bag still puts the finer dust back in the air. After a day of woodworking I typically have about a dust pan full of chips and dust to pick up. This is primarily from the tools that do not have dust collection (drill press, hand tools, etc.) Hope this helps.
Ray
Ray, thanks very much. I have to decide between a portable system, like yours, or a permanent installation. I think my shop is too small for a permanent installation. David
DUST COLLECTION IN A SMALL SHOP
I have used a leaf blower more than once after opening the shop doors!
My shop is almost exactly the same size as yours, and I too have a Unisaw. I have a Penn State 3hp system about 20 duct-feet away from the saw and I get no blowback. I have to make sure I clean out the filter cartridge every time I empty the drum, but I think that is just basic maintenence. Anyway, it works fine. Good Luck!
Thank you for information about your experience; it is encouraging. I will look into the Penn State system. David Shover
I have to second what Bob @ Kidderville Acres said in post #6, this thread.
I have the same Delta unit and it is better than I expected. Relatively quiet, strong, 1 micron bag. I use it with my Woodtek T/S, a 6" jointer and my DW735 planer.
With reducers I also use it with my 12"cms and all manner of handheld power tools. (routers, sanders, etc.) Good hoses also allow me to use it as a floor sweep/pickup station.
My shop is 15X20 with everything mounted on some type of mobile base. Flexibilty is key plus the fact that this unit is operated on 115V power. The next item on my list is an overhead filtration system to compliment the good d/c unit.
This is an important piece to purchase. Buy the best you can afford that works for your space. Quality/ volume of air moved will repay itself in the comfort it will afford you. If the unit you choose does not have the capacity to keep up with machine(s) you plan on obtaining then you are wasting time and money.
Work safely and enjoy.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
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