Hi all,
Normally I’m over on Breaktime, but I thought this might be a better place for my question.
I am going to be setting up a temporary shop in the basement of a new house for the express purpose of building the house. In 12 to 18 months, I’ll be building a separate shop building/barn. What I’d like to do is have one dust collection system that will serve well for move-around use in the basement (I can’t really install a permanent cyclone, which is what I’d like), and then move it to the new shop. I have looked at the new JET canister units, but they’re $$$$ – maybe too much. I have also looked at the Penn State and Oneida cyclone systems, but really can’t see setting up a cyclone with all temporary ducting and then have to take it all down and move it.
I’m really at a loss to decide what to do here. I think maybe my only other option would be to get a smaller portable collector and sell it and trade up to a cyclone in 2-3 years (or keep it and dedicate it to one machine). Any thoughts?
The DC will need to be pretty substantial in capacity. I will be planing and finishing a lot of roughsawn lumber for flooring and cabinets, and will need to hook it up to an 18″ planer, drum sander, shaper, jointer and Unisaw. One other thing – I do NOT like the idea of plastic bags for dust and shavings – I refuse to buy replacement bags when all my shavings and dust will stay on my property, either in the woodstove or compost pile. So, something using a cloth bag or fiber/metal drum would be nice.
Replies
Just buy a disposable HF DC and use 5" flex to your machines. It easily has enough power. The 30 micron cloth bags they come with aren't too good for superfine dust but for a temporary application they might work good enough. You can find .3 micron bags at Grizzly cheap.
I now use 2 of the HF blowers to power a Pentz designed cyclone kit that kicks @..
You can buy one of the HF units for $149. It comes with a pull-around mobil base.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986
I like that idea, or any of the 1200 CFM units by Jet or Delta. They are around $350. I got mine used for 150.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
I would not worry too much about putting up temporary ducting, and then having to move it when the house is done. This stuff is easily reconfigured and reused.
I have a Jet 1100 (which you might guess is 11 cfm) which I think would be very adequate for what you describe. It is the plain Jane model (without the cannister), and does have cloth bag that you could drag out to dump on your compost pile (just don't put walnut shavings/dust in the compost).
The above unit sells for about $300, but I would add another $75 for a remote control. I use the Lone (or maybe it is Long) Ranger, and it is really handy to have one of these things around.
If I were buying today, I would spring for an Oneida unit; they sell one for about $600 which I think is head and shoulders above the Jet mentioned above (sorry I don't have the model #). The dust drops into a container, which you can also easily carry out to the compost heap.
I wouldn't advise buying a cheap throw away unit -- you'll always complain about it. Besides, the unit you use for building the house will also serve you well in your permanent shop.
Edited 11/16/2004 12:02 am ET by nikkiwood
Jon -
I would agree with the comment that buying a cyclone now and installing ductwork will not be wasted $$$ or materials. Ductwork is ductwork and fittings are fittings. They can be re-used.
What I would be concerned with, in your case however is the sheer volume of waste it sounds like you'll be generating. Milling all your own stock, jointing, planing and the like is going to really amount to a pile of shavings and chips. I'd think capacity would be one of your main shopping points as well as CFM and all the other stuff that goes into a good DC system.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
I've got a low cost setup ........ a Delta 50-850 dust collector and a trash can cyclone set up (http://www.7corners.com/7c_store/findprod.cfm?DID=1&sku=-2051034473&cat). The Delta seems to run fine on 120v, it is reasonably mobile (has 4 casters) and the trash can catches the big stuff before it gets to the collector. Plan to keep using this setup after everything gets a new permanent home. Definately no Oneida cyclone setup but for my lone ranger operation, it should be fine. You should be able to do the whole setup for $375 or less.
Jon,
Another idea I've seen used in large shops is to simply blow the stuff outside. No bags canisters or dust inside the shop. The big stuff will pile up for you to compost or whatever, the dust will float away. Obviously if the shop is too close to the house or walkways this would be a bad idea as the dust is potientally harmfull. You can get a blower to do this for $150.
Mike
Jon,
Have you given any thought to the "non-collection" system? Just blow the stuff in a pile behind your shop.
My system is a 3 HP Grizz. unit inside a little sound-proofed dog house behind my shop. Stuff goes through a very simple but VERY EFFECTIVE muffler and just blows out into a pile. Pros are: very simple, cheap and easy. Cons are: heat loss (not a bigee for me) and ??. What I've lost in 4" pipe and design flaws, I've more than made up for, IMHO, by getting rid of bags, filters, etc.
If you don't already have one, the pile of sawdust could even be your excuse to go out and buy a tractor to push it around with!! LOL
My thought was; why collect the stuff and then drag a barrell or a bag out and dump or haul it somewhere. Why not just dump it in the first place.
I haven't gotten a digital camera (that I can figure out how to use with my computer) but I can give you more details if you're interested.
Regards,
Mack
"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, these days you don't absolutely have to use the camera with your computer. If your computer has a CDROM drive, you can take pictures with your digi-cam, then take the memory card down to the local drug store and have 'em put the images on a CD. You're good to go (if you have an image-editing program, that is -- you're not allowed to post anything that I can't download via dial-up, ROFL!).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forest girl,
I know, I know; I should at least step into the twentieth century! LOL Hopefully sometime this winter, I'll be able set aside a weekend (or a week in my case) and break the code on posting pictures. There are several I would enjoy sharing.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack (& others),
Thanks for your comments. The "blow it outside" bit won't work yet - I need to set the DC up in my basement for about a year, first. Then I can get the shop built and consider some sort of bag house or external collection. Piles of sawdust aren't a problem - I'm out in the woods and I already have a tractor.
I think that I'll probably go for a decent mid-range canister DC with a separation lid on a can, and sell it if I ever decide to work up to a cyclone.
I installed a cyclone lid (the Veritas, from Lee Valley) on a 750 cfm portable collector (General, with 1 micron filtration bag). I hooked it to a central 4'' duct system vith 4 different blast gates. My shop is 15' X 20'. The DC alone was always getting clogged with large shavings from the planer. It never happened again with the cyclone lid. Plus, emptying the DC bag is a real pain. Now I just walk out of the shop with the garbage can, dump it on the compost pile and put it back in place.
It works equally well with only a shop vac. If I had known it before, I would not even have bought a DC, but only a better filter for my shop vac. This might be the way to save money. All you need to buy is a lid, a 100 litre trash can and ducting and fittings. You will re-use all of this, and maybe end up with the same setup in your permanent shop...
By the way, walnut shavings are also armful for horse's feet. They can get laminitis if they step in it for too long. Because you said you'll build a barn.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Thanks Fred, and all for your advice.
I went into the local hardware store, they are a Shop Fox and Delta dealer and have 1200 cfm collectors for $179 and $269, respective brands, and cyclone lids. So, that's what I'll do, and maybe 3 or 4 years down the road I'l spring for a real cyclone, or better yet, build one.
'Barn' is a word that is synonymous, in my case, with 'shop'. For some reason, I don't like telling people that I'll be building a 1200 sf, two story SHOP. :) The town building inspector understands what a barn looks like, but doesn't get the 'shop' concept, and besides, supposed agricultural buildings are quite acceptable. Noisy dusty woodworking and sawmill shops are not so nice.
No horses allowed on the property. Black walnut shavings, when I get them, will be spread around in the woods.
"Black walnut shavings, when I get them, will be spread around in the woods." Ooops! My understanding is that Black walnut shavings contain a natural, and very effective herbicide. Not a good idea to spread them in the woods! Sorry, but that's one tree that isn't nice to the rest of the plant world.
It's been mentioned a few times on the boards here, I think Jon Arno pitched in. Might want to do some research just to verify.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Google is wonderful:"Founder (laminitis) can be induced by black walnut shavings. Researchers have long suspected the poison from black walnut leaches up through the horse’s hooves and the sensitive laminae into the bloodstream and becomes systemic. Stalled horses may ingest some of it from the floor from nibbling their hay. As little as 5% black walnut shavings mixed with 95% pine shavings in a 12 x 12 stall can be fatal to a horse within 12 hours. Clinical signs (as soon as 8 hours after exposure) are increased heart rate, increased respiratory rate, depression, high body temperature, acute laminitis (rotation of the coffin bone) and sometimes colic. "
http://www.showhorsepromotions.com/walnutshaving.htmI couldn't find anything about a herbicide. (quick search, may be deeper.)_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Yep. You're talking to an old (so-to-speak) horse-person. Spent years running a stable and fending off situations that might cause laminitis, colic, all that icky stuff. That "rotation of the coffin bone" that was mentioned is gruesome, gruesome! The coffin bone is a pointy bone inside the hoof that can rotate all the way through the sole under the worst conditions.
I'm sure you'll find something on the herbicide effect. If I wasn't working on my piano-hinge problem tonight, I'd help out. But I know I've seen it from reliable sources.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Came close to a terminal founder in a welsh pony my kids had grown out of this year. Best solution was the same as for all horses - gave it to someone prepared to ride it.
But, just like tools, I seem to be back to the standard 'one is not enough of anything' problem. Have you kicked the habit?
Thank you for the info.
I'm a veterinarian in day time and woodworker whenever possible... I've always been taking good care to separate my black walnut shavings from the rest since most of my chips end up at client's barns as bedding. I knew it was dangerous but I never found any precise numbers in medicine books and references. I'll take a look at this link you gave.
When I first entered this forum, I didn't know it would some day turn out to be continuing education! If I ever end up charging money for this new knowledge I got here, I promise I'll buy this Lie-Nielsen low angle rabbet block plane!
Fred
Dr. Fred
I also learned something. I had heard/read previously about Black Walnut and its potential for injury because of my respiratory problems. I did a search on the stuff as a herbicide and located instead the problems it can cause for horses._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Hi Jamie -Remember back some time ago I made an offhand comment about using walnut shavings from the lathe in the compost? Advice here was not to do so and to open a chat in Over the Fence forum. Sure 'nuff, there's some stuff called Juglone (don't know the pronounciation) in *some* walnut trees that's toxic to many (but not all) other plants. The walnut's way of dealing with rival vegetation I suspect.However, the consesus of what little other research I did seemed to indicate that 1) not all walnut trees are equally imperialistic and 2) the amount of Juglone in sawdust from seasoned lumber wouldn't be that much of a problem if composted.I could be wrong, of course.Don't have nor never have had horses. But I'll refrain from using it as bedding for my hamsters (hahaha)
]
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
What would want to bet it's not toxic to Himalayan blackberries, LOL!! ?
You take good care of those hamsters, ya hear?!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I was providing swarf (mostly eucalypt, acaicia, and mulberry) to a mate for his daughter's pet rats until one started bleeding from the nose. Turns out that the common rat is now so domesticated that many can't stand a natural environment and need shredded paper because of wood and dust allergies. (we work in an area that revers the shredder, so although there is no shortage of material, we are currently waiting for the spys to bust the rats for industrial secrets).
Dave
I bought the ShopFox 2hp dust collector about 2 years ago. It works great. I ran 4" duct to all my machines and use home made blast gates. I also use the trash can cyclone which works great. I can't imagine needing a stronger DC this will pull nearly anything that falls in up the 8' vertical pipe run along the ceiling over to the trash can.
What about biuldng the shop first or at least getting it weather tight and finish it later? That would be my recomendation. It doesn't take long to frame a garage/shop, sheet it and rap it with 15 or 30lb felt...
Come on, where are your priorities? :)
Jon, I bought the Jet 1100 with the cannister. I would not buy a cannister again! It requires too much attention. The paddles in the cannister are inadequate! Dust build up inside the cannister. I Frequently have to blow from the outside in with compressed air and bang on the cannister from the outside to keep it clean enough to function well.
These lessons were learned by having to remove the can and getting more dust on me than I thought was in the world -- what a mess!
If you are a serious woodworker, get a good cyclone and relocate it later.
Bill
Bill
I agree with your assessment of the cannister. It does take more maintenace than advertised. OTH, it does a better job of keeping the fines contained than a bag.
I will be replacing the unit with a cyclone early next year._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
A canister filter and cyclone design are not mutually exclusive. If you look at, for instance, the Penn State catalog, you'll see that some of the cyclones have a canister filter hanging off of them. I don't know anything about how hard they are to clean.
I heard recently that some of the big canisters have more paddles inside than others. Might be something to look into in terms of how effective the cleaning action would be.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 11/25/2004 3:36 pm ET by forestgirl
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