Replies

1. 
   RANGERP75R | May 22, 2003 01:31am | #1

   Jamie

      I use the scraper to get the glue off. In this case, I would use the scraper first then lightly sand. You did mention that you tried to wipe it off with a wet sponge. Probaly raised the grain when you did. If it feels hairy in the area that was wet, you did.

      When you're finished there, I would wipe the surface with mineral spirits or naphtha ( naphtha dries much faster ). Any glue or scratches will show up pronto. It will get all the dust particles off also. That way there are no surprises.

      You're going to wash-coat then apply gel-stain? I use the Bartley's gel-stain and have never had to wash-coat. Let me know what happens with both as I'm curious.

   Good luck...

   sarge..jt 

1. 
   forestgirl | May 22, 2003 01:44am | #2

   Hi Sarge, how are ya?  I sanded my test boards today and will making a number of samples.  This is my first attempt at taming blotch-prone wood, and I sanded one side to 220 and one to 320.  Will cut up into a number of smaller pieces and do a wash coat for most, though based on your experience, I'll leave a couple "unwashed."  I didn't get an order for Bartley's done, so will have to use the stuff that's in the cupboard.  Will LYK what happens!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   RANGERP75R | May 22, 2003 02:25am | #3

   Jamie

      Very smart sanding the test stock first. I have seen folks apply test stain to un-sanded stock and end up with a much lighter finish than the test. The higher grit you sand the lighter the results. I never sand past 220.

      An example is I am currently working on a micro-wave table. The top, base an face frames are solid red-oak. The sides are red oak ply. The ply will come up much lighter than the solid wood. I sanded the top, base an face to 220. I stopped at 150 on the ply to let it absorb more stain and darken to the same color.

      It was very close to a match. A couple of beers and it would look even closer. Too bad I don't drink anymore. Guess I'll have to install a dimmer switch in the kitchen so the slight shade difference won't be noticed. ha..ha..

      Forgot you were using alder. Still curious to see if the wash-coat aids with the gel in keeping blotch to a minimum. Would appreciate a reply sho nuff on that result.

   Thanks in  advance...

   sarge..jt

1. 
   forestgirl | May 23, 2003 03:57am | #9

   OK, Sarge, click here for a web page showing stain samples.  Since it's a red jersey, I think I'm going with the darkest, which turned out to be walnut stain on board sanded to 320, but with no wash coat.

   I'm posting these from the computer with the LCD monitor.  Will check when I get home and see if the colors are anywhere close, and correct if not!  [EDIT:  Got reddish hue phantoms in first set of scans.  Rescanned and corrected]

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

   Edited 5/22/2003 10:56:55 PM ET by forestgirl

1. 
   Kevin | May 23, 2003 06:56am | #10

   Nice looking samples! It's surprising to me though that the greatest color difference between the two non-wash coated samples is on the one sanded with 320. I would have predicted that the 220 would have yielded the greater difference between the walnut and chestnut stains. Very interesting...

   Is that Western Maple that you did the samples on?

   Regards,

   Kevin

2. 
   forestgirl | May 23, 2003 07:13am | #12

   The stock is Alder -- a very blotch-prone wood, hence the experimentation to make sure I can get a nice stain before going on to the actual workpiece.  I was a little surprised by the results also, mostly by how well the un-washcoated pieces did.  I will do one more test board, since it took a couple of tries to get used to how the gel stain goes on.

   On the 220 sample you're referencing (un-washed), the wax I put on may have pulled the two stains closer together.  I was just fooling around, and put it on before I realized the scans would have to be redone.  The Trewax I have is a reddish-brown, and not the wax I'll use for the final project.

   Another interesting thing about this gel stuff is how the look changes (improves) over the first couple of hours after application.  forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   Kevin | May 23, 2003 07:32am | #14

   Alder, huh? Gosh... it's been a very long time since I've worked with Alder. I don't remember it blotching badly, though. The first furniture factory I worked at... which incidently is where I was first exposed to finishing... about 70% of the furniture was made out of solid Alder. It was planked and kiln dried in Pendleton, Ore. So... I assume that it was Oregon Red Alder, if that makes a difference in the blotchiness.

   Well... in any case, my memory isn't the most reliable asset I've got. Maybe the furniture was blotchy and I was just so used to it that I accepted it as normal. <shrugs>

   I like the color of that Chestnut stain you used. I may have to buy some and play around with it at work.

   Regards,

   Kevin

4. 
   forestgirl | May 23, 2003 08:42am | #16

   Kevin, did you use spray applications for your finishing?  That's supposed to go a long, long ways toward preventing blotching.

   Just for fun, this morning when I was doing the test pieces, I slapped some Watco on one piece to see just how ugly it could get.  This was the result [take a deep breath now]:

   View Image  forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

5. 
   Kevin | May 23, 2003 08:29pm | #19

   Yes, the stain was sprayed on. But, it was a flood coat, using a Graco airless spray system, which was then wiped like a normal wiping stain. As I recall the stain was Reliance (SP?) solvent-based pigmented stains. The Alder furniture was prep-sanded with... I believe it was 220.

   Regards,

   Kevin

6. 
   Accelar | May 23, 2003 07:23am | #13

   Realize this is closing the barn door after the horse has bolted, but Lee Valley sells a product that is some kind of substance to which glue will not stick: smear a thin layer on before you glue where ever you think you may end up with glue you don't want, and it peels off afterwards.  The stuff wipes clean later and apparently doesn't affect the finish at all.  Bought some - haven't tried it yet.Gavin Pitchford

   "Sail fast - live slow"

7. 
   forestgirl | May 23, 2003 08:35am | #15

   Cool!  I'll add it to my list for my next Lee Valley order, which hopefully will include their router fence for my LVV router table!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

8. 
   Accelar | May 23, 2003 03:52pm | #17

   The fence is absolutely great - I love how flexible it is.  The sled with it's box joint jig on one side and their bit jack are worthwhile as well.   If you're getting the fence, they sell little "stops" that hook on the table and make it so easy to move the fence back and forth to do raised panels or deep grooves. Get one for sure.  There was a post the other day about using different bits to route consecutively deeper grooves  (I think it was in a drawer).  With the fence you set the stop for where you want to end up, and then start the fence to the left and keep moving it right on 1 or more successive passes until you hit the stop.  (BTW Lee Valley has a new bit for cutting the grooves along the bottom of a drawer AFTER it is assembled to save the need for set ups to do blind ones).Gavin Pitchford

   "Sail fast - live slow"

9. 
   forestgirl | May 23, 2003 07:04pm | #18

   Am looking forward to getting the fence.  I love the fact that their accessories don't cost an arm and leg the way other fence-makers' add-ons do.  While using my wooden fence, I've used the same approach to progressively deep cuts by setting my GripTite magnetic featherboard body at the appropriate spot on the table to mark the final cut.

   Thanks for the tip on the new drawer-groove bit.  I'll watch for it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

10. 
    Accelar | May 23, 2003 11:32pm | #21

    My Lee Valley catalogue was waiting when I got  home tonight (you know it gets priority over everything !) The "Box slotting bit" is featured on pg. 5 - you clamp the box together (no glue, obviously) and then no fence required.  2 choices - 1/8 or 1/4 slot - 32.50 Cdn each = $23 or $24 US ?

    If you are going for the table there are a couple of other accessories worth considering - they have a gauge and fence stop combined that clamps to the table.  It might be part of the fence kit - I can't recall - but it's great for minor or very precise adjustments - to .002 of an inch. The other one is a "work stop" that ties to the fence and allows you to set up for starting or stopping the work in a precise position - helpful when "reverse plunging" using the bit jack.  Finally they have thin plastic shims which slide behind the wooden portion of the fence on the outfeed side and support the work better when using the router as a jointer or shaving a hair off.

    If you do get the bit jack, take the springs out - makes the "reverse plunge" motion and minor adjustments much smoother.

    Gavin Pitchford

    "Sail fast - live slow"

11. 
    forestgirl | May 23, 2003 11:42pm | #22

    Thanks for the page ref, Gavin.  I have the other three small accessories on my list also -- am currently using a Veritas fence, bought used, but don't have the fence yet.  I went nuts doing a web page on its restoration and installation in my saw wing:http://www.islandpastimes.com/Knots/VeritasRT1.htm

    For the time being, the lift isn't on the list -- too many other things (like lumber!) have higher priority.  Maybe it'll get a place next year.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

12. 
    RANGERP75R | May 24, 2003 05:26am | #25

    Jamie

       Interesting results. I like the darker with a red jersey also. Wait till you try Bartley's and get into the jet mahoganies, etc. The gel stains perform much more uniformly than the liquid oil-bases. I have pretty much eliminated the wash-coat with them. Just wipe um on, wipe um off. I have learned to alter the shade of one stain by varying the grit I sand too.

       BTW, the alder is not as blotch prone as say pine, birch and poplar. I use a lot of soft-woods when building the donated pieces to charities. Trust me, I know about blotch in soft-woods. And yep, the knit of varying grain in a particular wood will vary results. Important to carefully select the various pieces to keep the grain consistent from one piece of stock on a project to another. Until I discovered the gels, I had rather spend 100 hours building than 1 hour finishing. Sigh of relief.

       Looks like you're doing excellent. Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Been busy with the base of the micro-wave table and staining and pre-finishing un-assembled parts. Keep us posted with the results of the case as you have all that fancy, new computer equipment to do it with. ha..ha..

    Regards for the evening...

    sarge..jt 

2. 
   Alan | May 22, 2003 02:58am | #4

   ForestGirl,

   I, too, use a scraper to clean up glue on flats and outside corners.  On inside corners I often use an old plane iron.  With the iron resting flat on the stock, with the bevel up, it will slice right through the squeeze out and into the corner.  I do the same from the other direction and the glue peels right off.  The iron doesn't have to be very sharp.

   Alan

3. 
   HowardAcheson | May 22, 2003 05:20am | #5

   You run a risk of pulling out wood fibers when you let an adhesive fully cure before removing the squeeze out. Glue is stronger than the wood and lifts the wood fibers when you scrape.

   At this point, I would suggest that sanding is the best way to flatten the joint and remove the glue.

   Or, you can try scraping on a portion that doesn't matter and see if you get any pull out.

4. 
   lostarrow | May 22, 2003 05:43am | #6

   use for wash?

   Not sure what you mean by that, but if it's any help ,white vinegar will soften and dissolve hide glue.

5. 
   WilliamHF | May 22, 2003 05:45am | #7

   You folks no doubt work with much larger areas of hide glue squeeze out than do violin makers. So this may not interest you.

   Violin makers dampen well the dried hide glue squeeze out and wait 6-7 minutes. Then, using water as hot as one can stand it on a rag, nearly boiling hot, wipe it off.

   Works well.

   Maybe not on great big areas; never tried it on great big areas.

   William

   I make something, sometimes twice, each year.
6. 
   ETG | May 22, 2003 06:18pm | #8

   I recently used hide glue for the first time on a small veneer job.  I read quite a bit before I did it - particularly Tage Frid's article on hammer veneering.  When Frid veneers, he coats the substrate, then lays the finish side of the veneer down on the fresh glued surface and then coats the back side of the veneer.  Then he flips the veneer over and applies the two glued surfaces together, using the veneer hammer to squeeze out the excess.  He states the hide glue on the finished surface gives lubricity to the hammer process and that you can then use a cabinet scraper to remove the dried glue.

   Since this was my first veneer project with hide glue (a very samll area 20 by 40 inches) and I had to use a thin, paper backed veneer (had to go with it because of grain pattern and availability in a time crunch), I was very concerned about scrapng through the thin veneer.  So I did the same thing the instrument maker suggested - I used very hot water and simply "washed" the surface till it was free of the hide glue.  The surface dried quickly so I was able to "test" it with mineral spirits to determine if all the hide glue was removed.

   Since you are using solid wood, a scraper may work well but some of the other comments don't favor it.  I still like the use of hot water/clean up but that has to be done immediately after application.  I had no idea how strong hide glue is till I attempted to plane a few pieces of squeeze out the next day - I now appreciate the term "death grip" for dried hide glue!

7. 
   pauld | May 23, 2003 07:08am | #11

   FG,

   FYI, there's a fantastic liquid hide glue formulation called "Old Brown Glue" that's available from Patrick Edwards of the American School of French Marquetry here in San Diego.

   There is information about him, his marquetry school, and the glue on his website at http://www.WpatrickEdwards.com

   Paul

8. 
   ChasStanford | May 23, 2003 11:26pm | #20

   I always leave stock a smidgen over thickness to account for the need to scrape or plane after glue up (general tidying up).  A cabinet scraper will blow the stuff away for you.  Take a pass with your smoother after that.  Then you're done.

9. 
   SawdustRay | May 24, 2003 12:05am | #23

   I've started making my 'small' test pieces a little larger.  I've had a couple of experiances when the small piece didn't have the grain or color variation that the larger finished piece did and found myself struggling with the stain as I was applying it.  This is probably a bigger issue with water based stains.

   I'm a big fan of Bartley's gel stain.  When I've used it on Beech or Cherry I had no problem with blotching.  I've never worked with Alder.

   Good Luck!

1. 
   forestgirl | May 24, 2003 03:13am | #24

   I'd like to try Bartley's once I run through the little can of Minwax I have here.  Have heard consistently good (great!) things about Barley's.  Also want to try their gel varnish.

   These test pieces are slightly wider than my workpiece, and I tried to use the areas of the wood that were most likely to blotch.  I did learn that hard lesson about test pieces when I made the first jersey case, which was out of red oak.  I made my samples from some molding cast-off and the grain was totally different from my workpieces.  When the workpieces were finished, they looked horrible!!  For this gel stain stuff, am going to do one more test board, pretty long to make sure before the final plunge.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

   Edited 5/23/2003 8:18:09 PM ET by forestgirl