OK, I’m not a woodworker – not yet anyway, so my question may seem silly, but….are dovetailed drawers really the best? The cabinetmaker who made my kitchen cabinets assured me that this other joint (dado and rabbet?) was just as strong and dovetails more for show. So…..what’s the scoop? From a physics point of view, he seemed correct, but other factors I hadn’t considered may be at work here.
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Replies
Kathy ---
On this site, you're probably going to get a whole rash of answers supporting dovetails, but your cabinemaker is correct. Dovetails are the traditional way to make a drawer. A couple centuries ago, dovetails were about the only way a cabinetmaker could keep a drawer together. Today, dovetails are still an earmark of high-end cabinetry, but mostly out of respect for tradition. Nowadays, there are plenty of other ways to make a drawer that will work just as well. Today, kitchen drawers typically run on ball-bearing slides, which greatly reduces the stress on the joint at the front of the drawer. Today, we have glues which bond wood much better than the ones two centuries ago. Today, we have a whole collection of manmade materials like plywood which have substantial structural advantages over solid lumber. All of this means that other kinds of joinery can build kitchen drawers which will last. For instance, one can build a very sturdy drawer box from plywood. The corner joints can be simple tongue-and-rabbet, and the drawer bottom is glued in. Gluing in the bottom adds enormously to the drawer's strength. This drawer will last as long as your kitchen will.
All of the above said, today's better kitchen cabinets generally have dovetails. This is not because the joint is better, but rather because customers expect them. Dovetails have a cachet well beyond their structural value.
Jamie
Jamie,
I am building some drawers that are 22" wide X 23" deep and 12" tall out of 3/4" birch plywood. I am going to use a rabbit and tongue joint. What glue should I use?
Joe Phillips
Plastics pay the bills, Woodworking keeps me sane!
Joe,
I just built two 27Lx16Dx12H draws from 1/2" birch ply and used yellow glue...but I did dovetail the joints.
Good ol' yellow glue.
Kathy,
I see this is your first post, so before anything else,welcome to Knots!
I wouldn't say that dovetailed drawers are there just for show. One of the reasons dovetailed joints became popular is that they are extremely strong. So strong, in fact, that cabinet makers deemed it worth the extra time and work entailed so that they could produce a quality product. The "show" part is secondary, i.e. their presence indicates that the builder took the time to do it right.
That being said, the only other joint that comes close to a through dovetail in strength is a sliding dovetail. Rabbets, and butt joints simply don't provide as great a surface area as a dovetail, which is quite important since their strength depends solely upon the strength of the adhesives used in their construction, rather than the integrity of the joint. I really don't trust the longevity of any glue. A manufacturer may claim that their product is effective for X number of years, but only the passage of time will tell. (Remember Masonite siding?)
Manmade materials such as particle board, MDF, etc. given the fragile nature of these materials, preclude the use of dovetails. (The joints would be broken and the edges rounded over before you ever put it together.)
Jeff
Sorry Jeff, but this Jeff has to disagree with you. It is true that dovetails are stronger than rabbeted joints, but I don't really believe that is the sole reason so many line cabinet manufacturers are doing them. They realize that the dovetails help to sell the cabinets just because they are there. If they were really concerned about getting ultimate strength, there wouldn't be any particleboard in their products. But they love that material. I've even seen dovetailed partleboard drawers!
I've been making drawers for a lot of years now, and I've found plywood boxes with glued and rabbeted corners are plenty adequate for utility work. I've got some tool cabinets that I made in about 1978 out of 3/8" cdx for the drawer boxes. They are glued and nailed only. None of the drawers has ever failed. They are sliding on mechanical slides and don't get treated gently. All the drawers are loaded with tools.
For custom high-end work or for something to feed one's soul, dovetails are the way to go. But to give the customer the most for their money....trust in the glue.
Dovetails will functionally hold together even when or if the glue fails. If just for kitchen cabinets, can you think of any time you have noticed the joint construction of drawers in someone elses kitchen, I can't.
"The spoons are in the second drawer, and by the way notice the dovetails !"
BC,
I would have to disagree with you....people that will admire your cabinets in the first place know several of the quality differences between cabinet (brands) makers. The big box stores differentiate all the time to questions posed by customers. What is not recognized is the quality and placement of the slides....fitted verses overlaping fronts, etc....and there is a lot more cost associated with those aspects of the cabinets.
Hey BG
I did not mean to comment on the necessity of quality, I was trying to point out that regardless of the quality of the craft, is it really worth the mental debate as applied to kitchen cabinets verses an individual stand alone piece. Maybe so, maybe not, it depends on your influences ( hell, what do I know !?! ). I kinda tried to be funny.
BC
Kathy,
I think Jamie Buxton's response summed it up pretty well.
I have to add however that a lot of cabinet companies use the fact that there cabinets are constructed with dovetails as nothing more than a marketing gimmick, often using lines like "long known as the hallmark of fine furniture," etc. etc.
Certainly, the absolute finest drawer boxes are constructed that way, but nowadays, the mere use of dovetails in the construction of a drawer box means very little. I'll let the pics I post let you see why I say what I do.
Jon
By the way the "bad dovetail 2b" pic is of the drawer of a new cabinet puchased from one of the big box stores, and every one of the eight drawers looks like that.
Edited 4/15/2003 11:56:59 AM ET by WorkshopJon
Edited 4/15/2003 11:57:53 AM ET by WorkshopJon
Jon,
Just curious, how old is the piece in bad dovetail pics 1a and 1b? Looks like those in 2a and 2b were machined too loose.
Kathy,
There are some good points made here, but Jon's post illustrates that if done improperly, any joint can fail. Fit is critical to the success of a dovetailed box. Are dovetailed drawers stronger than rabbetted? If done properly, yes. If used as a marketing tool, maybe, maybe not. Do you have kids? Mine have actually hung on a drawer or two. Bent the original cheap slides (I replaced them with better ones), but the dovetailed boxes are fine. Would rabbetted drawers have held up?. Maybe, but I doubt it. The short grain on the end of the drawer side would have probably let go.
Better to pick based on a reputable maker than the type of joint, though. But they'll probably use dovetails. After that, it's a choice of aesthetics.
Didn't FWW do a little unscientific test of corner joints in the last year or two? Anyone know which issue?
Froed
Froed,
I believe the piece is from the sixties.
Jon
When I make the draws for my cabinets I used a draw lock joint, as my wife is only 4' 11" she steps on an open lower draw to get thing from the upper cabinets. The draws are 30 years old and still going strong, do you need a dove tail, in a word no.
Scott T.
I didn't say you needed it, just said that in my experience it's more robust if it's done right. And that's the key with any joint, isn't it? But if the joint is never actually stressed to its limit, how do you truly know which one is stronger? The plywood drawer sides in my shop drawers are butt joints, glued and screwed, because I was in a hurry. They haven't failed either. Would I use them in a kitchen? No, but that's more for aesthetic reasons. Are they as strong as dovetail joints? No chance.
As for your wife climbing on the cabinets, the joint is only one variable. Drawer width, length, side/front/rear thickness and height, species of wood, and glue type also have an impact. As does the presence of any fasteners.
This is just my conclusion based on what I've seen, and as I said, is only one consideration.
Froed
Kathy,
One more thing I'll add after rereading your question, "are dovetails really the best." That answer depends on what your definition of best is, just like what someone's definition of "is" is.
Are you looking for absolute ultimate strength? Best value? Best aesthetics? (Something to showoff to your friends). I think even the answer to that depends on what materials you are planning on using. If you want the best of everything, I'd be glad to supply you with wood covered (your choice of specie) titanium and carbon fiber composite constructed drawer boxes that will likely not fail even if your house burns down. Of course it'll cost you.
Jon
I think the appearance of dovetailed drawers dimish when you slap a screw on, overlap drawer front. The dovetail becomes purely functional, and the aesthetic is lost IMO.
Tom
Big,
I agree with you. But then again, dovetails came about for purely functional reasons. The fact that only the best and most talented furniture makers were able to create ones that lasted for centuries has added to the perception that dovetails = quality. Granted, since those craftspeople were so talented, dovetails appeared on most of what they made, which I'm sure was really nice.
From a purely aesthetic perspective, I don't personally see dovetails as all that attractive, but that's just me. People do associate their appearance with quality furniture, so some like them to be seen. Nothing wrong with that. Same reason you wax a new car more than an old one, you want everyone to know it's shiny and new so to speak.
If they are done well by hand, it say's great deals about the craftsman behind the work and some people want to show that off.
However it is possible to make a drawer box using hidden dovetail construction that has virtually all the strength of exposed construction. So let me throw a question back. How come you hardly see it done? Given that there is so much furniture sold with joints like the pics I posted, wouldn't it be better to cover them up?
Jon
Edited 4/15/2003 2:27:41 PM ET by WorkshopJon
Edited 4/15/2003 2:28:14 PM ET by WorkshopJon
"The fact that only the best and most talented furniture makers were able to create ones that lasted for centuries has added to the perception that dovetails = quality. Granted, since those craftspeople were so talented, dovetails appeared on most of what they made, which I'm sure was really nice."
I'm curious as to where this fact came from. Much of what I have read or heard seems to be more of the opinion that tasks like drawer making were relegated to apprentices. Frank Klausz speaks about times in his apprenticeship where he would be required to do hundreds of drawers at a time, after which time he would be a pretty good beginner. Seems like the masters were doing more lofty tasks than chopping dovetails.
Tom
Edited 4/15/2003 4:12:12 PM ET by Tom
Tom,
I'm afraid that off the top of my head can't answer your question directly, but perhaps I can somewhat through analogy.
Just like today, the master craftsman/owners of the business set the standard of craftsmanship. I'm sure cutting by hand dovetails all day probably got boring, but apprentices of all trades start by doing the mundane stuff the higher-ups don't care to do. That doesn't mean that it wasn't still labor intensive, and hence costly to do a good job. High quality furniture of the past often had well cut dovetails. I don't see how it matters who cut them if it was done well.
Since not too much cheaply made furniture of the past survives, it's hard to say how much of that proportionally had dovetail construction also.
Jon
This is a fact, in the early 50s I worded in my fathers shop, after learning to sweep the floor, sharpen planes, I was started on dove tails. Did so many that I said if I ever got out of that shop I would never do another dove tail and I have keep my wood. Have not done a dove tail since leaving my dads shop in 59. I was draw lock joint with vary good success.
Scott T.
Scott,
Do you use the same drawer lock joint in plywood drawers as you use in solid wood drawers?
Draw lock, rabbets, rabbet and tongue, dado, sliding dovetail, butt joints with modern high tech glue, plywood boxes, MDF....
Is this forum about fine cabinetry and furniture, or how to slap it together, get out of the shop and sell it? If the latter, forget it - we'll never compete with the Home Depot.
If the former, then why not do things following the time proven methods that have been passed down to us by masters of past generations? I'm not impressed when someone says something is 30, 40, or 50 years old and has held up well. That's not very long as far as fine cabinet making is concerned.
Made in 1720? Beautiful condition? Solid? Show me how it was made!
Jeff
Edited 4/16/2003 11:09:27 AM ET by Jeff K
Jeff
No, the reason is I have never used plywood for drawers. I would think that with hard use the glue in the plywood may give out, but I can not say this for sure because I have never tested it. Do not miss understand me dove tails are the joint of choice for most fine furniture it is just that as a kid I make so damn many I said never again.
Scott T.
Since I'm reading about woodworking and not doing it - what's a draw lock joint?
Kathy
If you go to fine woodworking main section and select project and design then select chest of drawers there is a pdf file you can down load which explans draw making and the different joints. It covers it a lot better than I ever could.
Scott T.
Depending on glue is a bad practice. I had a silver drawer in a well made piece of swedish furniture form the 50s, and the rear joint was a well executed finger joint. It blew out during the 80s. and it isn't an easy repair to get it right. It was the weight of cutlery in the drawer ressing against the back of the drawer. It wasn't on slides, but slides would have made maters worse by speeding up the acceleration.
Handcut dovetails or ones like the Leigh through dovetails that have square surfaces area lot stronger than machine cut dovetails with rounder surfaces unseen in the joint.
There are ways of machine fastening wood that are stronger than any of the joinery we use (bonded metal studs), but the aesthetics would not be acceptable. Furniture is a traditional aesthetics business, and in that realm dovetails are supreme.
"Furniture is a traditional aesthetics business, and in that realm dovetails are supreme."
I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement.
I make contemporary furniture. In my designs I strive for an aesthetic that is "of our times." I have used steel dowels to pin joints and I use many exposed steel screws to hold a variety of parts together. I have even driven hundreds of pin nails and allowed them to remain exposed. All these joints function perfectly well for the situation. And, in my opinion, all are visually pleasing. A dovetail joint could have been used in some of these situations. But it would have looked totally out of place.
Traditional design and woodworking processes are one of the important foundations for my work. But they are never an end in themselves. I strive to push my boundries with every project, and I am encouraged by others who do likewise. Statements like yours keep people/craftsmen rooted in the past and discourage innovation.
Furniture is a traditional aesthetics business, and in that realm dovetails are supreme."
>>I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement.
>>I make contemporary furniture. In my designs I strive for an aesthetic that is "of our times." I have used steel dowels to pin joints and I use many exposed steel screws to hold a variety of parts together. I have even driven hundreds of pin nails and allowed them to remain exposed. All these joints function perfectly well for the situation. And, in my opinion, all are visually pleasing. A dovetail joint could have been used in some of these situations. But it would have looked totally out of place.
And these points are relative how? Did I say you shouldn't do this? What are you going on about?
Cameras used to be made of wood now they are made of something else. the very fact you are evolving your referential aesthetic at a snails pace proves the point of how traditional the business is. A nail! A screw! My goodness next you will be doing something really radical, maybe plywood, paint.
"Functioning perfectly well for the situation" is hardly a strong statement. The metal joints I am talking about are the kind of things used to mount 80 foot cantilevered spars to a hub. That's stronger, though I am not claiming it is necessary simply saying there are stronger ways of joining wood than dovetails.
>>Traditional design and woodworking processes are one of the important foundations for my work.
I don't doubt it. I'm sure you've borrowed widely. No really I believe you. Don't press the point...
>>But they are never an end in themselves. I strive to push my boundries with every project, and I am encouraged by others who do likewise.
Heroic! Inspirational! My goodness Jeff, is it too much to ask for a 5x8 glossy?
>>Statements like yours keep people/craftsmen rooted in the past and discourage innovation.
You seem to be reading a commandment or criticism into my statement which is an observation. The furniture business is one where you can do well recycling 17th, 18th, or 19th century designs. Hard to do in autos or aircrafts to the same degree.
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