If I may, I would like anyone’s technique/experience/ on drawer fitting, specifically, attaining a fit where the dwawer snugs up just before exiting the cavity and without sagging downward.
From what I have read I understand that the back of the opening must be slightly wider than opening. I also understand the necessity of making everything straight, parallel and square. But as of yet, I have not been able to fit a drawer with these qualities.
I can fit a drawer in a way that I would consider well, no side slop, smooth action etc. But whenever I have opened and closed a drawer that fits like a piston, snugs up just before it reaches the end, you can push on any corner and it will not bind, has that solid feel and sound, as it were, it makes me feel that I am sorely lacking in my drawer fitting ability.
I have read David Charlesworht books where he discusses drawer fitting as well as James Krenov’s books where he touches on the concept. I am in search of some guidence, perhaps with regard things to look for, or how some of you achieve this condition. Your help and comments are greatly appreciated.
Thank You
Replies
The draw opening need not be wider in the back than the front. If this is done to relieve air pressure, it's better to drill a hole in the dust panel below the draw.
I assume no slides are involved, so a natural drop off will happen as the draw reaches maximum opening.
Expert since 10 am.
Jackplane,
Thank your for your response. As I have understood the process, the reason for the opening to be larger at the back, as well as the drawer being larger at the back, is so that as the drawer is pulled out, the "larger" back of the drawer, snugs up in the opening, thus preventing the drawer from falling out, but eliminating the need for any type of stop to do so.
PS. I love the "expert since 10am"
Thanks again
One thing that helps is to fit the pieces of the drawer individually before assembling the drawer.
Bob K
Hi Bob K,
I agree whole heartedly. There was an article in an early FWW concerning drawer fitting and the highly talented cabinet maker/furniture maker stressed that very same thing. I have since followed that advice and that has indeed helped in better fitting drawers. As I stated, I do fit them well, but not as good as I know they can be done.
Joker,
Rob Cosman has a 2-DVD video that goes into the details of how to do piston-fit drawers -- Drawer Making: The Professional Approach. I have not yet seen it, but it is on my to-watch list. Based on the level of information and detail on his other DVDs, I expect that this one will also be very good.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1320&sort=prd_author
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Awsome!,
Thank you very much, I have not seen that. It looks like it would be very helpful and like you, it will be on my to watch list.
Hi Pzgren,
I was just going to mention the DVD by Rob Cosman. I received a copy of that Dvd for christmas. I strongly recommend buying a copy of that DVD. If you want to know how to fit drawers this dvd is for you. I've watched it 3X so far. I now have his dvd on how to sharpen and use handplanes. He offers excellent instruction. Very detailed DVD.
wanda
Joker,
There is an articles by Ian Kirby and others that describe drawer fitting as you ask. I can't remeber the specific Taunton "joinery" publications they are in. I'll post that information later when I get home.
The technique does involve making the carcass larger at the back than the front. Kirby recommends 1/32" difference (1/64" at each side). That, and careful planing of the, initially, oversized drawer to fit the opening.
Kirby's "method" of making dovetail joints usually seems different than "standard" techniques, but is perfectly logical and "correct" when you understand it. Dovetailed drawer parts are typically measured and marked (knifed for depth of pin and tail) so that when dry-fitted, the pins of the front and back pieces stand slightly proud of the outsides of the side pieces. The tails stand proud of the outer surfaces of the front and back pieces. The pins and tails are then planed or sanded flush with their respective surfaces.
Kirby asserts that constructing the joint in that way (and using the necessary "castellated" clamping blocks that are needed to engage all those raised pins and tails) indicates a basic misunderstanding of the joint and fitting of the drawer.
He fits the drawer front to the opening so that it is a very tight fit, width and height. Then, setting his knife gauge slightly less than the thickness of the drawer side, he knifes around the end of the drawer fronts, establishing the depth of the pins. This setting results in pins that are slightly less "tall" than the thickness of the sides.
When fit together, the outer surfaces of the sides are proud of the ends of the pins of the front and back pieces. The ends of the pins are the reference measurements of the width of the drawer. "All that is needed then," he says, is to bring the entire outer surface of the sides down to the pins, and then one or two further passes at a very fine setting of the plane.
The grain of the sides must be oriented so that planing can take place front to back both on the outer surfaces and the tops of the sides.
The tops of the front and sides are planed in one continuous sweep starting about the midpoint of the top surface of the front piece, sweeping onto a right side piece or left side piece all the way off the top back of the side piece.
The drawer is planed in this way until it just fits into the opening. The action then is the piston-like feeling you describe, with a sensation of greatest air resistance just as the drawer is pulled all the way out and the back of the drawer fills the opening.
Rich
Hi Rich14,
What you described is the exact method that I read in an early issue of FWW. It made sense to me in that if the pins are proud of the sides, then when you plane them smooth, the front and back will actually be loose in the opening. Doing it the way you have described, the pins being "less tall" than the sides allow the front and back to remain the same dimensions. I think you described it better than me.
Anyway, I guess I know how to do it in my head but I can't get it from there to my hands. I am not without skill, so I am thinking that I am missing a step perhaps or technique or "trick" to help ensure the desired end result.
Have you been able to accomplish drawer fitting in the way I have described?
As I mentioned in the first post, I don't have the reference article. I'll post that later. There are excellent drawings describing the method and authors other than Kirby, also.
Yes, I've made (make) drawers in this way. It's not at all difficult, but is sensitive to seasonal variations. Very few people really appreciate the technique (sigh). And I once got a complaint that the 2 little drawers in a compartment in a rosewood desk were annoying because they each made the other "pop out" when closed. (And they each sucked the other tightly closed, with a "click" sound, when opened - though that wasn't part of the complaint).
Rich
joker,The publication is Taunton's "Fine Woodworking on Boxes, Carcases and Drawers. My edition is 1985. I believe there are later printings. Kirby's article is, "On Dovetailing Carcases."There are 40 other articles.I also recommend "Fine Woodworking on Joinery."I consider these 2 to be indispensible references. There are articles by Tage Frid, Ian Kirby, Allan Boardman, Toshio Odate, and many, many others on every aspect of joinery.Rich
Hey Rich14,
Thanks for getting back to me with those references. Believe it or not I can actually fit drawers the way you described where they will push and/or pull the opposite drawer. I have a cabinet in my office at my real job that I like to kind of show off how tight the drawers are.
So someone may ask, "if I can fit them like that, what more do I want?" My answer is that I feel that I arrive at that point rather by luck and not because I have a specific technique or procedure that I can methodically go through and thoroughly understand in order to get consistance results, ultimately, to get that 'oh so sweet fitting drawer', that I didn't realize existed until I experienced it for myself.
Thats what I am looking for assistance with. Either with written material or the experience of others so that I can get a better grasp of what I think is truely a hallmark of great craftsmanship. When I first learned to cut dovetails by hand, I thought "I have arrived!" Then when I discovered that I sucked at fitting drawers, I knew I had a long way to go.
Anyway, thanks for your input and the references.
I have watched the Cosman drawer fitting video several times since purchasing, and it is EXCELLENT! Step by step video demonstrating each part of the process very clearly. A fundamental part of his process is to make the drawer opening parallel and square in all directions - the back of the drawer opening is identical to the front, not larger, in his methodology.
Sounds like I definetely need to get that DVD! It's always better to watch someone do something verses reading about it, then trying to visualize it in you head. At least for me it is.
Thanks
Joker,
Here are a few more FWW references:
Classic British piston fit method by Alan Peters:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2482
Philip Lowe on drawer-fitting:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=24097
My favourite, Mark Edmundson's NK drawer method (I make virtually all my drawers like this now):
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2730
There are many others in this site's archives, available as pdf files. You may need to pay for the extended service to be able to download some of them.
If you have back copies of FWW, the index on this site will enable you to identify the issues with drawer-related stuff in. There's loads, both specific to drawers but also as part of wider articles on building various pieces that incorporate drawers.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
I agree that the NK drawer is an excellent method. It's also my favorite for medium to large drawers. However, it does not allow a piston action. It actually defeats an "air-tight" fit.
Rich
Rich,
Yes, agreed that the NK method does not create the classic piston - but it does give a drawer that doesn't waver side-to-side or stick either.
The piston fit is satisfying to achieve and said to be a mark of skill. However, in practical terms it has a few drawbacks <G> namely the propensity to jam if the humidity increases a lot (or go slack if it gets very dry); the danger of even a minimal warp in a side, over time, causing a jam; the narrow edges wearing grooves in the runners over time.
I ws greatly impressed by the NK method because it avoids all those things whilst still giving a close and flush fit drawer front with no "wobble in the hole" (a terrible thing, wobble in the hole). I like those big flat bottom-runners too. And the strength of a glued-on bottom. (!)
I have made piston fit drawers of the classic kind and so far there has been no sticking or wobble. But the climate in British households is very stable and forgiving. I suspect some of your US climates are a bane when it comes to expansion & contraction of furniture parts.
Lataxe
Agreed,
I am a fan of the NK (enco) slide.
All my "tight-fitting" drawers (not NK) are small ones. They don't have much problem with seasonal changes.
Rich14,
When you are making the back of the drawer cavity wider, how do you keep it cinsistant from side to side, top and bottom? Do you use the drawer back as the guide? Or do you just measure and then plane the sides? I will assume it is a gradual taper from front to back. I think that is where I am having the difficulty, getting that consistant taper throughout the drawer cavity.
In reading one of Krenov's books, can't remember which one, he describes it as "let go", and I believe he said there are ways to ensure this. If I understand what he is saying, as you put the drawer back through the front opening it will be very snug, then at one point beyond, it "lets go". Unfortunately, he doesn't go into any detail or even general description of how this can be accomplished or ensured.
I refer to Krenov because the drawers that I was so impressed with were from pieces of different students from his program. They were all the same, snug, no sag, air tight, stopping just before coming out, sweet. I don't know how they will be years from now, but right now they are sure impressive.
Any advise is welcomed.
joker,
I hope you can get the Taunton publications, because Ian Kirby's drawings are very helpful. Also I believe you are mixing up a few concepts.
"When you are making the back of the drawer cavity wider, how do you keep it cinsistant from side to side, top and bottom? Do you use the drawer back as the guide? Or do you just measure and then plane the sides?"
The "drawer cavity" is the carcass. Simply, the whole carcass is 1/32" wider at the back than at the front. It's out of square by that much. (That's not really a lot in a large carcass) This allows fitting of the drawer a little differently than if the carcass is truly square. The drawer itself is square (as accurately as the craftsman can make it).
The drawer front (and usually the back - but not always) is made to fit the opening more tightly than it would in a perfectly square carcass. Consider a drawer in which both front and back are made the same size. As the drawer is inserted, the fit is almost too tight (the piston feel), but "gives way" as the back passes through the opening into the "cavity" which tapers ever so slightly away. The drawer moves smoothly as it is further inserrted, until the front engages the carcass opening and the piston effect is felt again as the drawer is pushed home.
When the drawer is opened, it gives resistance at first, then moves easily, then feels tight again if opened enough for the back of the drawer to engage the carcass opening from behind.
If this same drawer were in a carcass that did not taper out toward its back, the drawer would be far too tight and would bind all along its travel. Such a drawer's action could be improved if a little were shaved off all surfaces that were binding, and a kind of piston fit could be achieved, but it would not be the same sweet action as above and the drawer would be very subject to humidity changes.
Again, the drawer front and back pieces are carefully fitted to the opening (horizontal and vertical dimensions). The end grain of the pins of the front and back drawer pieces are the references for the width of the opening. The pin heights are set to be a hair less than the thickness of the side pieces. Then the outer surfaces of the sides are planed "down to the pin end grain." Not much planing is involved. The sides should not be made too proud of the pins. The planing also removes the knife lines for the tail height. The plane iron must be very sharp so you can plane the entire drawer side in one motion, using the front and back pins to gauge progress.
Rich
Edited 2/1/2007 12:26 pm ET by Rich14
Hi Rich14,
I understand that the cavity is the carcass, I think where I may not be clear in my explanation is that I am picturing a carcass with a fixed shelf at the bottom in which the drawers will slide into, thus calling it a "cavity" within the carcass. What I have done is make the carcass with the fixed shelf square, or any other case piece, at least as close to square as I can, then attempting to plane it wider towards the back.
If I am understanding you correctly, you are actually making the carcass out of square slightly to begin with and then going through the drawer fitting process. Duh, I didn't think of trying it that way. I really thank you for your help and again for the references. I apologize if my inquiries sounded naive, I have just been stuck on this thing and after a while you kind of get tunnel vision. I have only been looking at this from one direction and missing a whole other way to look at it.
My desire for attaining this level of fit is two fold really, first for the reason I have already mentioned, I know how well drawers can be fit, but second, I have been in galleries where there are case pieces, desks, tables, etc. with drawers in them and while the piece was beautiful as soon as you pulled the drawer out, it was sloppy and it really detracted from the overall quality of the piece, and especially when major $$$$'s are being asked. I'm thinking to myself, if they are asking that much for it, those drawers should fit really, really well.
For me, it has become a particular quest that I am trying to attain.
Anyway thanks again, you have given me a new perspective and direction that I will definetely try on my next project.
Good luck. If the Taunton books or articles are no longer available, maybe we can get permisson to post them here.
There is nothing like being able to see methods that others (masters) have developed or that have been used for a very long time because they work. I know what it's like to get tunnel vision and to slap myself on the forehead when I finally see an elegant solution described that had been hiding in plain view all along.
Rich
Lataxe,
The techniques by Alan Peters are the ones I "try" to employ. Probably like everything else, practice, practice, practice.
Thanks for the info.
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