I want to start trying some hand cut dovetails for a project I plan to do in the near future. I was wondering which dovetail saw I should start out with. I think I need to start with a Japanese, because I hear they were easy to control. I am not sure though that is why I am asking the experts. I know everyone doesn’t have the same preference when it comes to these things, but I am hoping you all could steer me in the right direction. Thank you in advance for all of your help.
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Replies
If there is any way to take tuition with a live person, use what he uses. Lots of ways to skin this cat. I like my LN with straight handle. Why, that how I first learned.
I started with a Japanese pull saw and used it for quite awhile. More recently, I purchased a LN dovetail saw and have used it since. Both have their merits and supporters. I prefer the LN saw, but I think the key is to choose one and PRACTICE. Try some practice drills, like sawing down a vertical line, over and over again. Try to saw right next to the line. See where you have difficulty and try different things to help you improve. Then cut some simple dovetail joints. See where you have problems and work to improve. The video set by Rob Cosman on cutting dovetails is excellent, full of good tips. (available through LN)
Good luck, Tom.
Hi,I'm starting to learn as well....I have an LN and got it as I want to use some hard woods. How do the Japanese saws work with hard woods? The ones I've seen in the $50-$100 range have pretty fragile looking teeth that look like they'd fold up quick with some hard maple and an inexperienced hand.Also I spoke with a friend the other day and he recommended trying some cocbolo for starters as it behaves more like metal. I quickly put my LN to some cocobolo scrap I had and it cut straight true and clean! But I've yet ot lay ouit and cut some dovetails.paxBro. LukeBro.Luke
Bro Luke,
Those itty-bitty teath cut like a itty-bitty shark. They are hard but ductile. Not fragil at all. My first dovetails were in Sapele. Cut bloodwood, purpleheart, some REALLY hard oak and maple with no problems. Another advantage with most dozukis, the blade is replaceable. No sharpening required. They're way more economical, and do just as good a job. Your hand and eye will tell you what works best for you. Don't pay any attention to old farts like me.
Steve
Fusssy,
I agree with you relative to the Dozuki and hard woods. However, I tried to cut 1/4" hardboard and stripped all the teeth.
Bro. Luke,
Wow! You sure received lots of responses. I am pretty late getting back to you, but here are my further thoughts. One of the nice things about the LN dovetail saw is that it tracks straight. Once started, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to steer it. That is because the kerf is only about .003" wider than the blade. As a result, you may have difficulty with binding until you get some experience. If you get it started right, it cuts pretty straight. The comment about a saw being easy to correct once started is a different point of view. I prefer the LN over a saw that can be steered, because that means it can also go off line more easily.
On the dozuki: I used mine extensively and wore out one blade. In that time, I cut only hardwoods, mostly cherry, and never broke a tooth.
Again, I think it boils down to buying a reasonably good saw and practicing.
Good luck again, Tom.
I have the exact same experience as Tom77...note that LN sells both rip and crosscut saws; be sure to get rip for doing dovetails.
I prefer the Japanese pull saws (Dozuki). Because they cut on the pull stroke, the blade is in tension and will stay straight. The thin kerf and fine teeth make the cutting effortless, starting is smooth and easy, and I find them easier to correct when off-line. I have both, but that's my preference.
You can get good, inexpensive versions of both ($19.95 for a crown 10" gent's saw or about the same price for a decent Dozuki. Get one of each and practice.
Miller,
I started out with an inexpensive Stanley dovetail saw ( the fixed handle version, not one of those reversible contraptions). From the factory it did not work too well, but with just a few minutes work, filing the teeth and pounding out the set, I had a saw that preformed very well. The filing was easy, since I did not need to change the shape of the teeth, only make them square across, like a rip saw. The set on most inexpensive western saws, is too wide, and the blade just sort of flops around in the kerf, making control difficult. Since dovetails are rather shallow cuts, set isn't really necessary, so removing it will make a dramatic improvement. I now have an LN saw because I prefer the "pistol" grip, but it is not a better tool than the Stanley; in fact for very fine dovetails, I still reach for that $9.95 Stanley.
My experience with Japanese saws, amounts to a total of 2-3 strokes with one, so I can offer no opinion on them.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I have experimented with a number of saws over the years. I started with a Pax DT saw that I used for years. The blade was thick, it didn't cut very well and was hard to control. I then picked up an inexpensive Japanese pull saw. The blade was thin, it cut straight, leaving a very fine kerf, and was SHARP! Went through wood with almost no effort. Still, the blade is flexible, so unless you hit the angles dead on at the start of the cut, it's hard to adjust for correction. I then picked up a L-N DT saw. It's presently the one I reach for when cutting DTs or any similar small joints. For me, it's easier to control the cut with this saw.
My wife started with the Japanese saw and liked it because she had some difficulty using the L-N without binding it in the kerf. However, I had her spend about 1/2 an hour simply cutting short cuts perpendicular to an edge of a board in a vice until she got the feel of the saw, learned how to "lighten" the saw when starting a cut and how to keep the saw moving in a straight line. She now prefers the L-N as well.
Still, if cost is a factor, you can get a Japanese saw a lot cheaper than a L-N and, with some practice, you will be able to make DTs just fine. There is a learning curve no matter which saw you choose -- I'm not one who believes one is any easier or better than the other. It's a matter of personal preference. And while I believe that a L-N and a $30 Japanese pull saw are comparable in results, I do not believe there is a similar comparison between a L-N and a cheap backsaw. Trying to learn with a cheap push-type backsaw may be a frustrating experience for you. I'm not saying it'll be impossible -- heck, that's how I learned. It's just harder.
No matter which saw you choose, I suggest you undertake the exercise I had my wife do (and always had my students do): Clamp a board in a vice and take a perpendicular cut about 1" deep. Don't mark it first -- as Frank Klaus says "you don't need to mark square -- you know square!" (But after you cut this first kerf, check it with a square just to keep you honest.) If it's not square, try again, about 1/8" over. Repeat until you can cut a square cut. Experiment with how to hold the saw, your body position, your arm and wrist. You will find a combination that, for you, will produce a square cut. Then, see how many parallel cuts you can make and how close you can make the cuts. Again, continue to experiment with adjustments to your stance and arm motions. Once you have mastered this (it won't take that long -- it's a pleasant way to spend an afternoon), then you can try your hand at dovetails. I recommend Frank Klaus' video if you want to jump-start the process. (Oh, and after you master the sawing, you still need to worry about the chisels. I prefer short butt chisels for DTs, but that's another post!)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I use a bow saw. I got that from Tage Frid, and lord knows he cut a lot of DT’s. Advantages are plenty of tension in the blade; you can reverse the cut any time, easy to sharpen yourself. And you can build your own; I now have eight of them. And, if you like, Japanese style blades are available for them.
Miller,
All you really need is a saw that will cut a straight line. You can, as others have already stated, use a $5 Western back saw, a $20 dozuki, a shop-built bow saw, or a $125 LN dovetail saw; all will work equally well (once tuned, if required), if you do your part.
The advice about cutting straight and parallel cuts on the edge of the board is probably the single most useful thing you can do to improve your dovetails (and any other cuts you may make); the more you do, the better you get. After about 1000 or so (seriously), you'll hardly ever miss a cut and will rarely think about what you're doing; it will "just happen...." because, by that time, you'll have built the muscle memory and the saw will become an extension of your hand and arm.
Rob Cosman's DVDs on dovetails are very helpful, as is his DVD on mastering the dovetail saw, so you might consider watching one or more of them.
I've used a dozuki; they cut nice dovetails. I currently use a LN dovetail saw because I like the pistol grip handle, feels good in my hand, and cuts very nicely.
If you decide on a dozuki, pay attention to the teeth. You certainly can use them on hard woods -- one of the other posters mentioned bloodwood: that stuff is really, really HARD -- but you have to go easy on the downward pressure or you're very like to break teeth off. I've used my Japanese saws on red oak, purple heart, hard maple, and other similar woods without any problems losing teeth, but -- during a couple of classes I've taught -- have seen students put way too much downward pressure on the saw and strip off a half dozen teeth at a time in clear pine. so...you just have to be careful.
Good luck and have fun getting a new saw (or two)!
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Don't laugh but I use a x-acto back saw.
You know I have one and the little aluminum miter box that goes with it. I use it to cut small pieces of dowel and the like but never thought of it for any precision WW. KDM
"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Edited 2/7/2007 11:01 am by dukeone
I was surprised how well it cut. Try it.
M,
Like you I have only recently begun with the handcut DTs. I've cut nearly 300 in the last 2 weeks and there is no doubt that James (pzgren) is right about lots of practice making things better. The last couple of dozen tails (I cut tails first) have been done by eye, without any detailed marking out. It turns out to be surprisingly easy to judge the ange and even the spacing aright.
At the risk of being a snob <G> I have to say that having a well made saw seems to make the learning easier. I'm sure there are plenty well-made saws that are not top-of-the-market but I confess that I decided to take no risks. I got a hand made one (from Mike Wenzloff) on the grounds that it will start, track and otherwise perform without problems, leaving me to learn how to cut properly rather than having to learn how to contol a misbehaving saw (or have to fettle it - all those teeth)!
A Wenzloff saw is indeed a great performer.
The Japanese option seemed attractive (narrow kerf, easy cut) but there are a lot of knowledgeable people who say that one needs to be wary about the type and quality you get. The lore is that most Japanee saws are meant to cut softer woods and may have trouble with very hard woods. In part, it must depend on exactly how hard the wood is; and on how hard you go at it, I suppose (no personal experience).
Mike Wenzloff, as I remember, said that Odate were OK with hardwoods; David Charlsworth recommends Sunchild. Maybe others within Knots can say which brands are tougher than others?
With a western saw, the kerf is a bit wider and this makes it easy to get a coping saw in there to cut across the bottom of the waste rather than chiselling it out. I find that the coping saw, followed by a small amount of paring with a skew chisel, is a lot quicker (and produces better results) than chopping all the waste out with a chisel - especially with very narrow pins.
This may be just that I have not yet learned to chop well. But the coping saw method is really easy to do.
A Japanese saw will not leave a kerf wide enough to get the coping saw blade down, so you would have to cope-saw down through the waste before turning the right angle(s) to cut out the waste on either side.
But enough rambling. Hope this helps.
Lataxe
PS If you do a search on "dovetail" you will find quite a few threads on the matter, with loads of good advice in them about every aspect of DTs, as well as DT saws. There is also a good, and recent, FWW test on DT saws, available as a pdf on this site, if you have paid for the extended service.
like you, i would not trade my Wenzloff & Sons saws for anything....Mike helps you decide exactly what saw you need for the type of work you want to do and will make it to whatever length and ppi you desire...
some of the best money i ever spent was on a set of saws from Mike...it's defenately a matter of personal preference, but I wouldn't go back to a japaneese saw if you paid me...
Miller,
Just for a slightly different point of view, I think the style of saw or size of its kerf has nothing whatsoever to do with either its ability to "track" or to make adjustments to regain a line. I think this is simple and basic saw technique, independant of the saw. Good saws cut faster, and are more comfortable to hold, but don't necessarily cut straighter. A hack saw with an 18 tpi blade makes a perfectly acceptable dovetail saw.
As to what you should buy, that's a tough question. I think japanese saws are good for what they were designed for- working on site, without clamps or vises, working when sitting or kneeling. I don't think they work particularly well on a western style bench since they violate the cardinal rule of sawing- that you must watch the (beginning of the) cut.
Moreover, if you intend to push other saws or planes, I think you'd benefit from choosing a western saw. So if you are really serious about this, I recommend contacting Mike Wenz and getting a good saw. If you're not sure you want to spend the money, don't spend any and get a new blade for your hack saw. I don't think a "middle of the road" choice is a wise one here.
Adam
I would agree, technique is king, but the set and sharpening must be even or you will fight it all the way.
M,
There are two (at least) other threads that will be of use in answering your questions. They are: 30588 & 35749.
Lataxe
My apologies and I am not trying to hijack this thread, but I have a project coming up where I am making dovetails in 8/4" stock. I was planing on tilting the bandsaw to 12 degrees and making them this way. Since I have not done them with a bandsaw or by hand, which way should I take a stab at it? Buy a LN saw or try with the bandsaw?
Jeff
Neither buy a dovetail jig... Just kidding. My philosophy is to use the tools I have... unless I really want a new tool.
David Charlesworth has a good description of using a bandsaw in his books. It might be worth a try. If it doesn't work for you, you're not out anything (except the practice wood).
I have a LN Carcass rip saw which I use for dovetails. Works very well.
That's kind of what I was thinking. If I buy a hand saw, and I find it to be way above my skill level at this point, I will think about buying a Leigh jig. Probably the 24" model so I can make that chest I have always wanted to build.
Dovetails are really not that hard to cut. Plus they're fun to do.
It takes a well sharpened saw, but that's about it. I use a LN rip carcass saw, and it works great. Prior to that I had a japanese saw. It worked, but it really wasn't my thing, I really do prefer western saws.
Personally I tend to keep away from jigs lik ethe Liegh. They take up to much space, and are a huge investment to cut one type of joint.
I have a Pax tennon saw, but I thought that there was some magic in a saw labeled a "dovetail saw". Now it kind of sounds like that if you practice you could cut them with any saw that has teeth. I guess I just need to get started. Thanks for all the advice.
Miller said ". If I buy a hand saw, and I find it to be way above my skill level at this point, I will think about buying a Leigh jig. "
I am not about to advise on saws for dovetails because I do mine using unorthodox methods, but what I find really interesting here is just how different we all are:if *I had been in Millers position I would have endeavoured to bring my skill standard up to the quality of that saw, not the other way round. If Miller were standing right here I would show him the Leigh model D1258R jig that I have had for a long time-and never used. Imay even have fleeting thoughts of giving it to him.... but that would be contrary to my belief that it is better to master the handwork methods and the wood using the best quality tools one can afford before going machine.
*But then again that is because I enjoy good tools-they are after all the route to good woodwork .
Miller, why should the absence of a Leigh, or any jig, prevent you from making that chest?Philip Marcou
I have only been doing any real woodworking for about two years, when I bought my first house. I could not afford to go out and buy new furniture, so I started trying to make my own, with some success I might add. I started with trim work, then an entertainment center and an end table. I am starting on night stands at this time. My next plans are a bed and then a chest of drawers. The chest of drawers is the project that I want to use dovetail skills on. I have a Porter Cable dovetail jig I used on the entertainment center drawers. The only reason I used it then is because I belive that the dovetail is the strongest joint I could have used. On the chest of drawers I would like variable spaced dovetails, and my current jig will not do that. I know that some of these skills could take years to develop. I don't think my wife has that much patients. I was foolish enough to think I could build furniture cheaper than I could buy it, but with what I have learned I can not buy the same quality as I can build. Of course I could buy furniture from experts like the people here on Knots, but that is way out of my budget. Maybe this explains my unconventional thinking. I am not sure if it does or not, but I know nothing compared to the people here at knots, so I am open to any suggestions you may have.
Hi Miller, I see the situation better now.
I think Mike has given some good advice, especially where he says that it does not take too long to learn to cut neat joints.
Perhaps you could enrol at a class of some sort? It may cost a bit but it would no doubt save you money in the long term, and you would also get guidance on what tools to have and how to use and maintain them.
I still have the very first piece that I did dovetails on- nobody sees the imperfections except me- and the real mistakes are hidden from sight- I did the through dovetails on the drawer backs the wrong way round-see the pictures.Philip Marcou
I really wish there was someone to help teach me, but I don't know anyone. I don't think Texas has a lot of woodworkers. There is a Woodcraft store about 60 miles from here. I will keep my eye out for someone teaching a class there. Thank you this sounds like some good advice.
Philip,
"See pictures".
Hee hee hee! I am just off to the shed check the DTs on that plane now.
Lataxe, who hasn't made that daft mistake (yet) and has deleted the pictures of all the other daft mistakes he made, in woodworking and elsewhere.
Well Phillip,
Like I say at the strip clubs - "nice chest"
What kind of lumber did you use for the main chest? Surely something exotic and not readily available to us poor chaps in the states! Looks quite nice. BTW, I hope my first hand-dovetails look half as good as those.
Cheers,
Lee
Lee, that timber you see there is actually not what I would call prime grade-at the time it was all that I had.
It is Pterocarpus Angolensis from Zimbabwe. The very same stuff is better known as Papa New Guinea Rosewood - Pterocarpus Indicus.
Angolensis is called Muninga in the U.K. Other names are Mukwa and Kiaat. Excellent timber-medium weight , very stable indeed, glues and polishes well. Smells great, works beautifully,poisons nobody. But there is now not a lot.
I do know that it was and maybe still is exported from Mozambique to the States. The Rhodesian gentleman responsible was a special forces soldier in days gone by- so he knew where and how to get the good stuff.In fact there was an article in FWW some years ago: the timber came from "managed woodlots" and was a "renewable resource"-or so the market was lead to believe. However I salute him, otherwise even more of it would be burned to make charcoal-same fate as Wenge.
Just some snippets for the Tree Huggers.Philip Marcou
Edited 2/5/2007 4:18 am by philip
Have you worked with a wood called Mara?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
High,
Mara? I have not heard this name before. Tell me more: maybe I know it under a different name.Philip Marcou
This is the best link that shows anything about it and shows the Latin name. I found the piece I bought on the rack with turning blanks, at WoodCraft.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Did you forget the link? Can't see it on my screen.Philip Marcou
Why yes, yes I did forget the link. Here it is.http://www.argentinefinehardwoods.com/gallery_dense.html
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Holy smoke! If you are asking me about Mara because you want to send me some , go right ahead-I would like to know it. Also , if you could include a few sticks of Argentine Walnut, Honey Mesquite and Patagonian Rosewood I would mucho gratsias....(;)Philip Marcou
The piece I got was maybe 3.5" square and about 12" long and quarter sawn. I'll see if I can take a photo and have the grain come out well. It's nice looking stuff and if it's hard and stable enough, I think it'll make some nice inserts on some project or another. I got it just to try it out, see how fast it'll dull my tools, etc. Apparently, it not a health risk but I'm not going to take any chances so the mask will be on if I saw or rout it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Philip,"Shady" business associates indeed! Now my wild imagination is picturing you melting down artillery shells etc. to make some component of your planes!
;)
-Andy
Philip,
You said that you use an unorthodox method of making dovetails. You may have described it previously on Knots, but if that is the case, I missed it. Would you describe it? I love unconventional methods. Anything but the status quo!
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, no I have not described it before-possibly because it is comparatively crude.However it all works for me and I am never nervous about the joints ending up below par. It may not be that fast, but I enjoy the trip : it allows me to have four or five (at a push) drawers of military chest size glueing up at the end of a day of about nine hours, assuming I dimensioned and fitted the front, back and sides to their respective openings the day before.
I mark the tails with a wooden gauge and either ball pen or propelling pencil and a cutting gauge does the depth line.I cut them using the bigger of my bandsaws-this allows me to sit if there are lots to do. I prefer to use carbon steel metal cutting blades, especialy when they have been re-sharpened by a filing machine. These are thicker than woodcutting blades and have little set- I get a nice smooth cut . So I merely cut to the line , stopping at the cutting gauge mark,then make a further two cuts that take a vee out-the rest of the waste is chopped out with chiselangled a hair in-halfway from either side.I don't have to pare the tails -the bandsaw leaves them smooth.
Then I use the tails to transfer markings for their sockets. I allow a *hair over size in length to plane flush.(clamp with soft wood block so there is no interference). Cutting gauge again used to scribe those stop lines. Now is the only time I use a handsaw -to saw the pins. Obviously for blind ones I can only saw halfway-but that gives sufficient reference for chisel that chops the rest. For blind doves, after sawing,I use a router free hand, fitted with 9mm straight bit to hog out the waste-this gives me flat bottoms all at consistant depth, but leaves a small vee at each side of each pin-this I just chop with chisel. The router is prevented from going too far back by a stop board set at the correct distance .By the time I have chopped out that little vee waste and pared to the line they are ready to test fit by knocking in about halfway- any tight ones will be marked and these are pared. I expect them to be right on the second fit and drive them fully home to be sure that all is well. I always chamfer the inside edges of the tails a little with block plane and chisel- when I separate them there will be no break outs then, and also this "wipes " the glue along when they are assembled.
I clamp first parallel to front and back then the final clamps are parallel to the sides.Measure diagonally for squareness- tweak clamps if necessary.
* Only a hair, mind. If it is the correct hair, then after flush planing there will be a suitable clearance on the drawer sides-the same hair was used to make pins on the drawer fronts a little long so these too are planed flush. Since the drawer front will have been dimensioned a tight fit (and shape-when are they ever 100% square?)this hair allows for the required clearance.Better than having to plane the whole drawer side for clearance.
Glue up of small dovetailed carcases like drawers is a reasonably relaxed process, but bigger carcases, such as miliary chests and the like necessitate a snappy glue application and some jumping around verging on controlled panic so all joints will have been test fitted and all clamps, blocks, papers etc will have been prepared before.
There, if you can understand all that you can take a medal. It is by far easier to demonstrate the process.
Philip Marcou
Philip,
Thank you very much for the description of your dovetailing method. I am leaving for the airport for a week in California (work). I will read it carefully and get back to you. I was checking my mail one last time before catching the airplane.
Thank you,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Philip,
Well, I am esconced in a hotel in Pasadena, California after a long plane trip. I just had a chance to carefully read your description of how you do dovetails. Thank you. You write very well and it was easy to understand. I have never used the bandsaw for doing the tails, but I will give it a try.
I was thinking of writing a five page word document which I could post on Knots, entitled, "The Final Word On All Significant Woodworking Questions". Obviously one of the significant questions that keeps reappearing on Knots is "What type of saw should I use to cut dovetails, and what method should I use?" So the final answer to that question will be: Use the band saw, and follow Philip's procedure!!!!!!!
The nice thing about writing such a document is that from then on there will be no need for search, all they have to do is download that simple document, and they will have all of the answers. Now I just have to list the other questions, and determine what the final answer is to each. That will take most of the evening.
Have fun, and thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I have long been thinking that some of the more informative and less contentious threads within Knots could be boiled down into some kind of "essence of the advice" - especially concerning the perennial questions such as "How to hand cut DTs / M&Ts", etc..
I wonder if you could fancy a collaboration on one or seven such threads, as an experiment to see if a worthwhile (ie acceptable to the Knotheads) result could be got?
Doing this kind of boiling-down by oneself is a bit daunting, in terms of both volume and worries about introducing a personal bias. If a few people were interested in a bit of boiling, the task would go better perhaps......?
The first thing necessary would be to design a format for the "jus" produced from a thread. Eg, it could be a simple table of advice-text/author/thread-post reference. A fourth column might register "alternative method/advice suggested" where appropriate.
Anyone else for boiling?
Lataxe, with a posser and tub.
Lataxe,
That is a great idea. I have thought about ideas very similar to it. I would be happy to help you out on it. You come up with the format, and I'll try to follow your lead in bringing a thread down to "the meat".
I suppose that I could just give you a list of reasons why it wouldn't work, but what the heck. Let's just make it work. As you can tell, I really enjoy writing, and I have done a lot of it. You have posed an interesting challenge which could turn out something very worthwhile.
The following is not to change you from the course you are on. It is merely a relevant aside. Yesterday I wrote a post to Philip Marcou in which I told him (half in jest) that I am thinking of writing a Word document to be posted on Knots, entitled "The Last Word on all important issues in woodworking" (or something like that). Obviously that list includes,
- what type of saw should I buy to make dovetails and what procedure should I use?
- what is the best way to sharpen my chisels, gouges and planes?
- do I really need a shoulder plane?
- should I buy the best tools when I start, or wait til later?
etc etc etc
It would be a fun evening to make a set of 20 such questions, and then to take a month to come up with an answer to each which is no more than two paragraphs. There would be NO way to do that without making it biased. Indeed, just issuing such a document would be a wonderful challenge to all the other amateur woodworking authors on Knots to write their own "Final answers to the important woodworking issues".
I just wanted to let you know that I have thought about this for a long time. I believe it would be a valuable resource for Knots to have such a document. I have thought of lots of ways to attempt it. One would be to get 10 people and ask each to handle one question. That would yield "The Final Woodworking Answers- Round 1" which could be followed up in a year by Round 2, etc, and it could be refined. Another way would be to have the 10 or 20 questions listed, and to get 20 answers to each question, and put that on Knots. That way, when you got to the chapter on "Dovetail saws and techniques", you would have 20 different answers. That would be valuable in a different way than the one answer for each, and it would be more a more valid and accurate account of the state of the practice.
So there are a lot of ways to do it.
Let's use yours. I am at your service. Let me know what is next.
Thanks for the invitation.
Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I've been thinking about a thread-boiling exercise some more and the thoughts need to be sent to you off-line, to start with. Is that OK?
Lataxe
Lataxe,
I am ready, and at your service.
We shall revolutionize the woodworking world.
We are the woodworking journalists of the future.
Let 'er rip!
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Ahem! Evolution not revolution, old key-hammerer.
However, I would be interested in seeing the list of candidates you have drawn up for putting agin' the wall for despatch, on the grounds that they are not fully sympathetic to The New Way.
I will post a message to you in a day or three, as thoughts are still congealing. I am anxious not to make a rod for our backs; and also to produce something of real use - essentially a summary/index to actual Knots posts rather than just our own inevitably biased views.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
We are going to have some fun with this project. But I have a three day interruption. I was on a business trip to the Jet Propulsion Lab in Pasadena, California, and my wife flew out to join me, so I am taking a few days off. SWMBO, who I am very fond of, believes that this is our vacation time together, and she does not want to share me with the woodworking crowd. So I will essentially be out of the loop until next Tuesday. I will work on a list for you. But I would rather not bias what you have in mind. On this project, I will take your lead. I have read your brief messages (not as rambling a mine) and I am not really sure of the direction that you want the project to take. So when you are ready, send me a more rambling message, and hit "reply via E-mail". Feel free to send stuff over the next few days. I just won't be able to spend time on it until next week. I am not interested in a divorce. We are enjoying sunny California, as opposed to the frigid temperatures and insane logic of Washington, DC. I am assuming that you will say something like "Mel, I want you to write a chapter on sharpening in the style and with the substance of Sgian Dubh, and I want you to write a chapter on the selection of tools in the style and with the substance of Adam Cherubini, and a chapter on making planes, in the style of and with the substance of Philip Marcou, and a chapter on running a woodshop ala Boss Crunk, and a chapter on veneering ala Rob MIllard, and a chapter on true woodworking philosophy ala Lataxe, along with something on Chippendale carving ala joinerswork. :-) (all with a response written in the style of Tonton Macoute) So what would you like me to do on the second day? Yuk Yuk.Have fun. Can't wait to hear from you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, and Lataxe,
Over the course of many years of demonstrating the craft at shows, many of the same questions come up there, over and over. For some time now, I've been considering writing up the answers to the most commonly asked questions, and am submitting them to you, in the hope that they may be helpful to you in your endeavor. Here are the concise answers to the 5 most common craft show questions:
1) Yes
2) 35 years
3) walnut
4)Not really
5)No
Sorry Ray,
You forget to include the vital question, "How long will the battery last in my cordless <insert name of tool>."
The correct answer, given absolutely deadpan, without asking how much the tool is being used, type of drilling, cutting, etc., is . . . 8 hours.
Rich
Ray,
Ah, I see it all now:
"Mr Pine, what is your head made of"? Walnut.
"What is the period before your furniture turns to dust"? 35 years
"Are you or have you ever been a naughty boy"? No, no, no, no, I mean yes!
"Do you know what you are doing with that chisel"? Not really.
Etc..
The cat is out of the bag now!!
Also, you forgot answer 6): "Don't be so silly"!
Lataxe
Ray's answers reminded me of a small book on turning by IICR Mr. Payne, a Master turner in London. I expect he was very good as he turned the miniature candle sticks for the Queen Mum's doll house when She was but a lass. He was relating his displeasure in doing so many mall demonstrations and the silly questions usually presented by young boys and old ladies. To wit, while explaining the proper angle to cut at above the center line of the stock to avoid jumping the stock out of the centers, an elderly woman asks " do you get hit with it often sir? " to which he replied , no madam usually it's only once as it goes by!
The book was a great read and as he was very old 20+ years ago I expect that he has passed by now. Paddy
Ray,
Your answers are reasonable, except that I would have said 37, not 35, and I would have worked in the need for a heavy leather apron that is sewn together with Kevlar thread. I find that by putting honing compound on my apron, I can strop my chisels and gouges from right where I stand. Please do not steal that idea, I am planning on sending it to FWW in hopes of winning a complete set of Marcou planes.I think that Lataxe is going to put together a non-fictional work on woodworking that will eclipse anything done by Tage Frid. Surprisingly, he asked me to help him out. So I am working on learning to write more succinctly. To to this, I am studying the posts made by routerman. I have found one of his that got up to six words. I like his website better.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Are you saying you will be going round in circles?
mufti mooching.
mufti,
You asked:
"Are you saying you will be going round in circles?"Are you implying that I haven't been going around in circles up until now? :-)Making revolutionary improvements in woodworking journalism is no easy chore!
I was thinking of turning to you for real wisdom. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Miller,
I first want to say that I feel uneasy entering into a conversation on buying saws. So I won't speak to new saws.
I think it was Steve Schoene's reply which suggested taking a class or otherwise working with someone to just help get you started and to use what they use. The idea of spending a couple hours or a day with someone who knows how to cut joinery is the right approach.
If that isn't possible for you, you can practice something like dovetails and in less than 30 days be pretty proficient. Just have some scrap 3/4" boards perhaps 6" long. Every day make a single corner. Mark them out, cut and fit them. A single corner a day. Write the date on them. You will be amazed at the progress you make.
I would also like to mention that using jigs and routers is an easy way to bypass learning to do so by hand. But I don't think it is a good method. And it certainly will not help you in every circumstance you will face in woodworking. And there is a learning curve as well.
Another thought I wold like to leave y'all with is my feelings about today's woodworkers. There is often a striving for perfection in work and tools which is a bit unrealistic. Oh, not that it isn't attainable to a great degree. But it is an undue pressure which I believe is a roadblock to enjoying and learning.
Will your first piece of furniture have perfect joints? In all likelihood no. That can apply to motorized methods as well as hand methods. But does it matter? I feel that what really matters is moving forward and the striving to simply improve--and at the same time accepting the present limitations of one's abilities.
So my suggestion above about the practicing on scrap is simply to gain confidence that by hand is an efficient and doable method.
Buy a saw if you don't have one. Any saw, but vintage is the best buy. If you purchase a vintage saw and your eventual goal is to build a large chest, buy a closed handled small tenon saw. I would suggest a larger carcass saw or what was called at one time a sash saw. Have it sharpened by Steve Cooke for the types of woods you use. Then practice. Don't beat yourself up over what saw or the early result of the practice. You will do just fine. Trust me.
If you feel you are doing something wrong after a few practice corners, take a picture and post it here or simply describe the results. We are all here to help each other.
Take care, Mike
Oops..the above message was meant to be directed to Miller--that's what I get for looking up Steve's name and not seeing that the drop-down box switched...gotta be smarter than the computer!
Take care, Mike
you know what, i have both the leigh and the porter cable jigs. i'm also currently practicing my hand dovetails with some other variations such as scroll sawing the tails and hand cutting the pins. i can say that i've happily used both jigs when in it was convenient and my skills were less than they are now. i'm still not where i'd like to be, but i don't know if i ever will be there. the more i learn, the more i realize how much i don't know . i digress, both jigs have served a purpose and i don't regret owning them. i still use them. i don't disagree at all with the talented people who have shared opinions earlier here, in fact, i agree with them about classes and practice. i took a different approach and don't regret it given my skills at the time. sometimes it just takes more to learn a new skill than i'm willing to put forth in effort in a given time period. it was nice to produce fine looking joints and still make projects. it's an odd thing now. i think many of us that have grown up on norm and the like are deciding to go back and learn hand tool skills. it does seem backward, but it didn't at the time.
i want to say that the porter cable jig can produce a slight variation of tail size if you want that. i recently "skipped routing between a couple of the jig fingers to make extra large tails. then when routing the pins i routed all of them and shifted the pin board in the jig to route out the pins where the extra large tail was to mate. i looked pretty nice. if you have interest in this i can post a pic of the joint.
good luck with whatever you decide to do.
I really wish there was someone to help teach me, but I don't know anyone. I don't think Texas has a lot of woodworkers. There is a Woodcraft store about 60 miles from here. I will keep my eye out for someone teaching a class there. Thank you this sounds like some good advice.
Hi Miller,
About where in Texas? Big state. I've only briefly traveled through a corner when I was younger. One of these days we'll get down there. We once tried to make it all the way into Texas on a vacation, but we burnt up all our time in Arizona and some of New Mexico.
The thing about practicing a single corner every day is you can do so at your own pace and by writing the date on them you can become encouraged by your progress and experimenting. We can help you with learning to layout, marking and even starting the cuts--but form there it is simply your practice.
Another good option for someone away from cities where there may be classes is books such as Ian Kirby's The Complete Dovetail:
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Dovetail-Handmade-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678/sr=1-1/qid=1170538911/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2929060-6581534?ie=UTF8&s=books
or DVDs such as Rob Cosman's Handcut Dovetails [go to Lie-Nielsen's web site], and even Rob Cosman's Mastering the Dovetail Saw.
And there is Lonnie Bird's Mastering Dovetails:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=55598&cat=1,46096,51618&ap=1
From those offerings [don't buy them all and as for a DVD I would get Lonnie Bird's] you get pretty much the same thing as a class, but without the interaction. We can help with that missing aspect.
From there, it is practice, something even a class with an instructor cannot give you. You can do this. I know you can. They may start out rough, but you will get better with practice and following some practice corners you will produce ones which while not perfect, be proud of them and use your growing skill to make that chest!
Take care, Mike
I live in central TX, about half way between Dallas and Waco. I have read a lot of articles on this site about the topic. I have a book on the way right now, its out there in the mail system somewhere. I have read quiet a bit about the subject, but I have not gotten out there and given it a real good try. I did a corner one day, it was kind of rough. It was a long process and it didn't look that great.
Once you start looking, you will be surprised at how many great woodworkers and woodworking resources are right under your nose. For example, there is a well-regarded woodworking school called Homstead Heritage near Waco. http://www.homesteadheritage-woodworking.com/index.html. I have not personally attended any of their classes, but have read very positive reviews from individuals who have.
Thanks. I had no idea that there was a place so close. That place is only about 25 miles from my house. I definitely will be enrolling in some of their courses. Thank you so much.
I know Paul Sellers personally. He is a very fine craftsman and gentleman. I was one of the judges in a furniture show where he submitted a piece and he took first place.
Miller
I'm in the Houston area. A friend of mine's husband attended a woodworking school in Waco that is all about using hand tools--hand cut dovetails, chisels, planes, etc. He had very postive things to say about this place. Here's the link: http://www.homesteadheritage-woodworking.com/
Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Yes, another person pointed this out to me. I had no idea it existed. I am very excited and am planning on trying to get into some classes. this place is only about 25 miles from my house. I will let you all know how my experience was. Thank you for the response.
No problem. I had not finished reading the thread when I posted--sorry for the double referral! I am off to my first woodworking school in April, and it will take me two days drive each way to get there and home again. 25 miles is a dream come true. Have fun. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I'll bet that if you go to a lumber yard, they know someone who builds furniture and uses hand tools- ask one of the old guys. You could also buy a video or go to a library to see if they have any. If you get a chance to go to the WoodWorking Show, I can almost guarantee that you'll see someone cutting dovetails. The thing about cutting them is, you don't need to make them perfect but knowing what to do with gaps makes them look that way. You can shave off a bit of the same wood, tap it and glue it into the joint to fill it. The gaps will go away when you smooth the sides, just pay attention to the grain.I know there are antique shops in TX and if you tell the people who work there that you want a specific saw and give them a description or drawing of it, they can call you when they get one. It should be pretty reasonable. There are websites that cover jointing and sharpening saws if you want to tackle it yourself, too. Otherwise, mwenz is the man when it comes to saws.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Woodman,
That's a white knuckler !! ...expensive stock, gotta be done right. I'd suggest you bandsaw the tails(using a miter), and cut the pins by hand. Assuming you've laid out the cuts well, the challenges include square cuts on the tails and a clean consistent square base line. The pins you can cut oversized and pare back carefully. You can jig up some stock to insure your chisels stay perpendicular when you pare the base lines.
One thing to spend a little time with are the base angles...make them sharp and clean to that the pin corners don't get crushed...bandsaw is a bit thick.
A while back people were recommending Zona saws for dovetails. I've never tried one but supposedly they work really well. They cost about $7.
Jeff,
I coudn't answer your query in good conscience, having cut only a few DTs with a bandsaw (not liking all the fiddling about it seems to need) and not many more by hand. (Done countless numbers on a Woodrat, mind).
As another poster has mentioned, David Charlesworth has developed a good method, using a meat & fish blade on the BS to get smooth cuts. He publishes a book you know. Perhaps he is reading and will nice by posting the details (of the method, not the book) here?
DTs in 2 inch stock is a lot of sawing per DT. If you have loads to make, a machine is going to save very significant time. But it also sounds like a good opportunity to practice the handsawing (eat plenty spinach). :-)
I am now up to handcut DT No 400+ (in 3/8ins stock) and it feels like I've been cutting them forever. But practice is certainly improving their quality.
Lataxe
I hope lack of a dovetail saw ain't keepin ya from trying this, cause I betcha you got the best technology at hand already....
I ain't seen any mfgrd dovetail saw with a higher tooth count than yer regular old hacksaw....
Moreover, you can rotate the blade so it cuts on the pull or push stroke, just an added versatility
No kidding, try it, you'll likely find it works just fine.
Eric
in Calgary
Eric
Good idea. I have also seen people that use a coping saw to do the dovetail prep. JL
Calgary eh? It isn't as much a cow town as it used to be...more like oil town these days, with a few cows and a stampede to keep the honest people honest. :-)
Yes
Not quite on your question, but if you decide to saw out the waste by coping saw or similar then may I suggest you align the pins or tails vertically in your vice for this? The reason is that it makes it easier to cut at right angles to the face, whereas cutting horizontally can be dicey even if you are experienced.
Mufti,
Your post intrigued me as I have been sawing tail and pin waste out with a coping saw and a fairly thick 14tpi blade. I like it much better than chopping all the waste out but it does have its issues.
I couldn't be sure that I'm following your advice about the horizontals and verticals. Do you mean that the coping saw cut is best made with the blade/saw in line and vertical? That is, with the wood held in the vise so the tails or pins are at either end rather than the top and bottom?
I confess to having made all my coping saw cuts across the horizontal, so far. Partly this is because I cut the tails or pins with the wood vertical, so just leave the pieces in situ within the vise to make the coping saw cuts.
Also I have been using a titemark guage to scribe quite a deep depth line on the outside faces and a block plane to create a very shallow rabbet of the same depth on the inside faces. The scribe line and rabbet between them seem to help a lot in keeping the coping saw right on target. I estimate I have to slice out no more than 0.5 - 0.25mm to get down to the scribe line from the coping saw cut.
However, if you are saying that a vertical coping saw cut wil also help, I'll give that a try.
I also thought of using a fret saw with a much finer blade. It's sometimes a struggle to turn the coping saw blade around the corner to start the cut - now and then it creates a slight "cave in the starting corner, if I'm not very careful.
Have you used a fret saw and fine blade at all....?
Lataxe
Gents:
Here's a technique that may be of use to you:
To prep for sawing the waste out, I drill a small diametre hole (slightly larger than the height of the fret/coping saw blade -- for my saw about 1/8th inch) in the center of the waste between the tails/pins and just above the scribed shoulder line, and then saw a kerf from the top of the waste straight down to the drilled hole. The waste comes out in two parts, and there are no problems with turning cuts, blade twisting, etc. Only takes a couple of seconds.
.
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James,
I sent a message directly to you, not posted on Knots, about my translation. Did you get it? If not, I'll try again.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Yes, I received your message, and have sent a reply.
.
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Pro Patria!
Yes, I am suggesting realignment of the stock so cuts are made vertically rather than leaving the stock in the same position in which it was when the tails or pin end grain cuts were made. After all, having practiced making good consistent downward cuts for those purposes it seems daft to waste that ability by then switching to trying to make level and square cuts by laying any saw on it's side and working cackhanded.
It is much more natural to saw downward, and before I changed to this I found it needed good concentration to keep the cuts level fore and aft, let alone side to side. I do try to make the cuts so no clean up is needed, which saves a lot of hassle.
On the matter of the saw to use to remove waste, again its a bit of a rethink. If you look at it backards roads on, you need a kerf into which a coping saw blade will easily drop. The blades do come in various sizes but the smaller are a bit chunky. So why do dovetail saw blades have to be so thin? After a bit of thought (painfull), I tried two hacksaw blades together in the same frame to saw the pins and tails, and it works very well, we have a clean wider kerf, not too wide mind, and the coping saw blade is a snug fit and does a good job of clearing the waste.
In the past I tried fretsaws, jewellers saws, a Fein detail tool with small blade and my Hegner to clear the waste, but it all comes back to not needing a dovetail saw kerf so fine that even if a chisel is used the waste being removed jams between the sides of the joint.
About six months ago I mentioned using car masking tape around the end of the stock so the marking gauge cut through the tape to delineate the base lines. With the upper part removed, I find it easier to see the line of the shoulder cuts.
Sorry this is long, have fun, David PS, are you going to Alexandra Palace for the show?
Edited 2/6/2007 2:26 am ET by mufti
M,
Thanks for all that good advice and experience. I do remember the thread about the masking tape but I find the shoulder lines fairly easy to see and cut to, especially if the titemark shoulder line is enhanced with one of those 0.3mm lead mechanical pencils.
I do have difficulty seeing the cuts scribed with a marking knife from tails to the pin boards. I do tails first and mark them with a thickish pencil - or not at all, placing the tails and their slopes by eye. But the pins obviously must then be accurately marked from those tails; and this is where the old eyesight lets me down a bit.
I have tried one of those headlamps that employ LEDs; a double spot lamp on a stand; and working only is good daylight. The latter is best but of course one cannot turn the sun on in the evening.
I read back through some old Knots threads and found an Adam Cherubini post that recommends a fluorescent ring light around a magnifying glass, all on a cantilever arm - so one of those is in the post. I think his point was that a raking light is best for seeing knife marks.
Meanwhile I'll give the "vertical coping cuts" a go to see if this helps both the closeness of the cut to the shoulder line and my visibility of it. I am getting near to being able to make good quality cuts for every tail and pin now and it is these small details of the process that I must refine now. The target is to speed up, so accurate initial cuts with a minimum of marking out and preferably little or no paring is what I'm after.
As I'm rambling on the subject of DTs now, one final remark: although the cuts are pretty good after all these hours of practice, there are still some thin gaps here and there once the DTs have been glued up. At first they were large enough to hide via the insertion of glued bits of 0.6mm veneer of the same species but now they are less in number and extremely thin - hairline.
To hide these little errors I have been using hard wax sticks dripped over the joint then heated with an artist's pallet knife (which is warmed with an alcohol lamp) until the wax remelts and is sucked by capillary action into any gaps. This works a treat and any hairline gaps become invisible. The whole is later polished over with ordinary wax of the same colour, which takes off any small lumps of hard wax remaining.
Of course, as my technique improves, I hope the that even these occasional hairline gaps will not be made. And its only taken me just under 500 DTs to begin to approach what a Woodrat can do (ie perfect DTs) from about your second attempt! :-)
Lataxe, seeing DTs in his sleep.
PS I won't be going to the WW show - too many commitments at the moment.
Cheers. I have eliminated all marking errors by using the shim device mentioned in one of my many earlier posts, so am left with just making the cuts as well as I am able. I do not have to see the line because the saw falls into the kerf cut by the knife part of my saw blade- and my eyes are not that good at times.
when i saw to a knife line i have found that a saw tends to split the line following the path of least resistance, resulting in the cut being over the scribe line by half of the width of the kerf...
how do you avoid, or work around this in order to get tight fitting joints?
Do not worry, I am a weirdo.
1 My small hand saws have little or no set and the nose of the blade has teeth removed for about 11/2 inches and that portion is sharpened like a knife.
2 I cut the tail kerfs only, then set the stock over the pin board and use the end of the saw passed through those tail kerfs to mark the pin cuts, however.
3 I use a simple jig to firstly align the tail board one kerf thickness to the right out of line with the pin board and then make those marks relating to the left sides of tails and then move that tail board from that position to the left by the distance of two saw kerfs before then using the saw to record through those marks relating to the right sides of the tails. I bet you wish you had not asked.
The result of this jiggery pokey is I now can complete the pin cuts exactly on the marks, and when the waste is removed put the joint together without the need for any adjustment whatsoever, the point being that by recording the transfer marks in the place the cuts are needed all the malarky about sawing to the side of the line is thrown out with the bathwater. I hope this makes sense to you.
I have been using a Dozuki back saw for about 20 years now on all kinds of hardwoods with great results.
A picture of one is at http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/saws/gcross.html
Tom on this page is right on with the lie nielsen saw because it is a rip saw and you can use it right out of the box. Rob Cosmans dvd on cutting dovetails is excelent and you should practice on a piece of poplar to get the hang of it.
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