Replies

1. 
   philip | Jul 07, 2005 11:48am | #1

   Cherry,
   One ratio can and often does suffice for both-what looks good to you (or the customer)? Traditionally it is as you have said, but so what- modern glue is plenty strong anyway.

1. 
   cherryjohn | Jul 07, 2005 02:03pm | #2

   Thanks Phil.  I thought I was missing something obvious but I guess I wasnt.Wicked Decent Woodworks

   (oldest woodworking shop in NH)

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 07, 2005 09:33pm | #3

   I think it does not make much difference... Maybe for a 'purest' but I look as some REALLY NICE stuff and then Dovetails look like they will break if ya breath on them.. But they don't!

   Go figure... Wood is wonderful...

1. 
   cherryjohn | Jul 07, 2005 10:40pm | #4

   yessa, it isWicked Decent Woodworks

   (oldest woodworking shop in NH)

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

2. 
   philip | Jul 08, 2005 01:39pm | #5

   Will,
   Those very very thin thin ones- one of these days i am going to get one and pull it apart, because I'm sure the inside ones are FALSE,and the only part doing any work is edge of the first and the edge of the last.
   If you don't understand that don't flap-someone is bound to paraphrase it .

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 08, 2005 10:52pm | #9

   If you don't understand that don't flap-someone is bound to paraphrase it .

   DAMN!  No hate here..

1. 
   philip | Jul 09, 2005 09:15am | #13

   I don't get it- what has hate got to do with it? I am still waiting for someone to explain better the point I was trying to make in the last post.
   Post #24477.2 has already been suitably enlarged/paraphrased-more than once-this can be a good thing, I would say.Sometimes by just hinting at something you can get an enlightening response.

   Edited 7/9/2005 2:22 am ET by Philip Marcou

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 13, 2005 10:19pm | #18

   by just hinting at something you can get an enlightening response.  

   I found my wonderful wife doing that same thing...!

   EDIT:::  don't get it- what has hate got to do with it?

   Just not fightin' ya silly!

   Edited 7/13/2005 3:20 pm ET by Will George

3. 
   eddiefromaustralia | Jul 08, 2005 01:58pm | #6

   John,

   Not hardwood and softwoods, but

   1:6 is used for carcase/strength dovetails, and;
   1:8 is used for show dovetails.

   The function of the joint is what sets the angle.

   Cheers,

   eddie

1. 
   cherryjohn | Jul 08, 2005 02:39pm | #7

   Ok, Eddie tell me why a 1.6 is stronger than a 1.8....................This will be enlightening.  As far as "show" quality, I always thought that people went gaagaa over fine (small) dovetails.  ** there probably is an Aussie translation of "gaagaa" but I dont know what it is*Wicked Decent Woodworks

   (oldest woodworking shop in NH)

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

1. 
   eddiefromaustralia | Jul 08, 2005 03:37pm | #8

   HI John,

   Re 1:6 vs 1:8 being strength vs show, I don't know why, but it's been trade training for about the last 100 years.

   10:30 at night here and I'm dog tired - just went to shut down computer for the night and found your message.  Sorry for quick reply - I'll let others argue this one out, but the numbers I've given are the way we're trained in trade.

   Cheers,

   eddie

   edit:  re the very fine dovetails, I'm against them personally - thinking of dovetails as a 'dowel' that you cut into the wood - if you remove 90% of the wood and only leave a 3-4mm pin (approx 1/8") every inch, then what you've essentially got is a butt joint (through) or a rebate joint (lapped) with the bare minimum dowels in place to keep it together if the glue fails - common in 80-100 y.o. drawers.

   I usually lay out pin width (at thick end) to be about 2/3 of thickness of timber.

    

   edit 2:  'gagaa' translates the same over here - can't think of a 'strine equivalent off the top of my head.

   Edited 7/8/2005 4:18 pm ET by eddie (aust)

   Edited 7/8/2005 5:20 pm ET by eddie (aust)

4. 
   TomHigby | Jul 09, 2005 03:03am | #10

   Cherry, I think it has to do with the ease of the tails cracking.  A more flaring tail will crack more easily with a softer wood.

   Tom

5. 
   Peter36 | Jul 09, 2005 03:38am | #11

   Well I don't know if this is correct but I have been taught that there are different ratio's for strength. The ratio's are from a time without the benefits of modern adhesives. 1:8is generally considered a hardwood ratio because the wood will not give much when a racking force or a pulling force [drawer] is applied. The wood is hard and will not compress, allowing the joint to loosen. The softwood ratio of 1:6 is a greater angle. This provides more room for resisting compression of the fibres and therefore will not rack as easily or get pulled apart as easily. I think it is generally accepted that a shallower angle looks better and that is why hardwood ratio's are not the same as softwood. However with modern adhesives the ratio can be whatever you like. I usually use 1:7 because I think it looks best. The primary concern in dovetailing [for me] is aesthetics. Modern glue takes care of the ratio dilemma and the spacing [thick pins or thin pins] is irrelevant in all but the most extreme cases. The joint is more than strong enough for the application.      Peter

   
   

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   Edited 7/8/2005 8:40 pm ET by Peter36

1. 
   cherryjohn | Jul 09, 2005 05:11am | #12

   Thanks Peter............well putWicked Decent Woodworks

   (oldest woodworking shop in NH)

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

6. 
   Telemike | Jul 10, 2005 07:57am | #14

   Woodworkers have been making dovetails for a hundreds, maybe a few thousand, years now in hardwood and softwood and everything in between. The knowledge aquired by cutting umpteen dovetails in every kind of wood you can imagine leads to: 1:6 insoftwood, 1:8 in hardwood.

   Maybe you know better, but I've found that when my wisdom has lead me to go against centuries of accumulated woodworking knowledge passed from master to aprentice, I've been wrong, as demonstrated by a gap, a crack, a failure, or whatever.

   
   

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   Edited 7/10/2005 12:59 am ET by telemiketoo

1. 
   cherryjohn | Jul 10, 2005 04:35pm | #15

   Tele.the reason I asked this question in the first place has to do with this little dovetail lay out guide I bought a few years ago.  I had it out the other day and it is laid out with 2 patterns 1;8 and 1;5 ( yup 5.not 6) and I wondered what the  necessity was.  As I have found out in here with this post it seems to matter only which pattern looks best to you because of modern adhesives.

    

   thats whats great about these mmessage board......good info...fastWicked Decent Woodworks

   (oldest woodworking shop in NH)

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

1. 
   Telemike | Jul 11, 2005 07:32am | #16

   CherryJohn, sorry if that sounded like "what an idiot you are". It was really: "what an idiot I was". I build a big oak table in a modern style and figure that modern finishes would let me glue cross grain to long grain because they'd stop moisture changes. That was WRONG and I still have the table complete with cracks both because it's a large oak table with two leaves and because it reminds me repeately that both me an modernity haven't got every issue solved yet.I look at the "modern adhesives negate old wisdom" posts with a little healthy scepticism and go with a few thousand years of experience. The real test isn't your piece's first year, it's its second century.

1. 
   philip | Jul 11, 2005 09:05am | #17

   Tele,
   Peter explained it correctly and succinctly.
   Your table analogy is not relevant to the subject because on drawers we are not glueing long grain to cross grain ( which ysually ends up with grief unless some precautions are taken).
   As for ratios-this is definitely an "English" thing and I repeat that Peter has nailed it. To prove my point you will see all the ratios under the sun by looking at quality work from China and France , to mention a few.
   It really nowadays boils down to a matter of aesthetics. Even in very soft woods, if the joint is well made with many d/tails and there is very little flare it will be good, especially with modern adhesives correctly applied.