Replies

1. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 29, 2004 03:12pm | #1

   Douglas-fir is one of the denser softwoods. So, functionally it's a respectable cabinetwood. It's average specific gravity of 0.45 is identical to that of genuine mahogany and only slightly lower than cherry (0.47).

   You can also get a very attractive pin striped effect by using quartersaw, old growth Douglas-fir...and this wood's warm orange color looks good under a coat or two of amber shellac.

   There was an article in FWW back about 10 years ago that discussed the use of Douglas-fir in furniture applications. Can't remember the issue, but if you can't run it down, I might be able to find it in my files and send you a copy. 

2. 
   Sprucegum | Apr 29, 2004 05:21pm | #2

   The old growth is very nice and was the most popular indoor trim 40 years ago. It was replaced by mahogany which is now being beat out by oak.

   I have done some work with fir and found it splinters easily - large grain , large splinters.

   On the plus side you can get good sized clear boards , compared to spruce or pine.

   I should mention our construction lumber here is sold as SPF which means it could be Spruce, Pine, or Fir. The most noticeable difference between the three is the number of knots in the boards.

   The type of wood you use will not significantly affect the speed of production (I should write that on the wall!)

    

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/29/2004 10:22 am ET by Sprucegum

3. 
   LeeEschen | Apr 29, 2004 10:12pm | #3

   The article Jon refers to (he wrote it) is FWW #94, June, 1992, pp80. It's a great article, well worth reading before tackling a DF project. Following the article are some wonderful examples of work in DF by several woodworkers. There is also a great sidebar by Curtis Erpelding about working with and finishing the wood.

   A brief quote from Jon's article: "Also, like cherry, it is a very stable wood with a naturally warm, pinkish brown color when freshly cut, shifting to a rich, subtle orange as it ages." Jon could, perhaps, enlighten us about the nature and process of this color change.

   Those of us who live in the Pacific Northwest consider old growth Doug Fir to be one of the finest woods of a region with many fine woods. You should see Port Orford Cedar or Golden Chinkapin or Bigleaf Maple or Oregon Ash, all truely magnificent woods. It is without a doubt, one of the most useful.

   I have about 1200BF of old growth quality DF stickered in my drying shed. It was cut about 18 months ago, most quarter sawn, 4/4, 6/4, & 8/4. My 2 acre property in SW Oregon has literally thousands of BF available for my future use. I am looking forward to using this fine wood in various projects I have planned.

   --

   Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;

   Gateway to the Oregon Caves

1. 
   MarkRoderick | Apr 29, 2004 10:29pm | #5

   We don't seem to get any DF here on the east coast (New Jersey), at least not readily. I do not recall seeing it in any of the many lumberyards I have visited in this area. It's a shame. I think it's a beautiful wood. If you feel yourself overwhelmed with your supply and are concerned about finding it a good home, I'll graciously pay for the shipping.

2. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 30, 2004 02:24am | #6

   That's the article I was thinking of, Lee.

   As for the patina process in Doug-fir, I don't think there is any particular mystery to it. It's probably simple oxidation...as opposed to the"magic" in such woods as cherry and purpleheart, Where sensitivity to light causes some dramatic shifts in pigmentation. In the case of cherry, it initially darkens when exposed to light, but I think purpleheart has a more complex patina process. It goes from tan to purple (apparently upon exposure to the atmosphere), but then light converts it's purple color to reddish brown. For the most part red (and blue) pigments in various woods seem to be the most fugitive, while yellows and browns tend to eventually dominate.

   Douglas-fir is a resinous species, so it has some acidity and it's extractives probably react with free ammonia as well as oxygen in the air...But the patina forming processes in woods is one of the least researched topics in wood technology. So, for the moment it's mostly a guessing game.

   Another confusion that seems to be creaping into the conversation here is that the "fir" in S-P-F is Douglas-fir. Usually, it's true fir (various species depending up whether it is of eastern or western origin). The true firs are non-resinous and not at all like Douglas-fir. The latter is more like the spruces and pines. Hemlock is also a non-resinous species and even though it is often shipped under a HEM-FIR designation, it and Doug-fir are decidedly different timbers. Their strenght and density properties justify the commingling, but as cabinetwoods they are a world apart. 

   With respect to your list of fine cabinetwoods out there in the Pacific Northwest, don't slight your yellow-cedar (AKA Alaska yellow-cedar). I know most of it is found further up the coast, but it's one of the nicest "softwood" cabinetwoods in the world. I wish it would have decided to grace the Great Lakes Region, instead of our much too soft Northern white-cedar. Both have their uses, but Alaska yellow, with it's greater density and finer texture is clearly the better for cabinetmaking...probably even a little better than your now scarce Port-Orford cedar.  

1. 
   LeeEschen | Apr 30, 2004 02:56am | #7

   Jon Arno wrote: Alaska yellow, with it's greater density and finer texture is clearly the better for cabinetmaking...probably even a little better than your now scarce Port-Orford cedar.

   Better perhaps in density and texture, but that Port Orford Cedar has such a lovely tactile quality about it.

   My list did forget to mention another of our best woods, our famous Oregon Myrtle, the same tree that's known in our neighbor to the south as California Bay Laurel. Beautiful!

   I truly feel like I'm living in "Tree Heaven". The reality is that I am living in the world's largest "temperate rain forest", extending from the San Francisco Bay Area through coastal Alaska and including many islands, the largest being Vancouver Island.

   --

   Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;

   Gateway to the Oregon Caves

1. 
   AlanMikkelsen | Apr 30, 2004 05:58am | #8

   I live in the heart of doug fir country in western Montana.  I don't have any problem finding vertical grain, old growth type material.  I also use a lot of #2 or better, FL (fir or larch) for some projects that might require some structural strength.  I just finished trimming out our youngest daughters house in clear finished, vertical grain DF.  Very striking.

   That said, when I'm building furniture, I much prefer to use cherry, walnut, qs white oak or maple.  The hardwoods are much easier to mortise and tenon, dovetail, etc.  Fir just tears or splinters to easily for really fine furniture.  I do a lot of exposed joinery, and for me, the hardwoods make more sense.  I do like fir in it's place, though.Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934,  Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT

1. 
   kiwimac21 | Apr 30, 2004 07:27am | #10

   Douglas Fir, known here as New Zealand Oregon (NZO), is currently the subject of some controversy. It's a widely grown plantation tree in Southern New Zealand, used extensivly for house framing and exterior applications because of its natural resistance to weather.

   However, we've had a problem with leaky buildings, especially in the wetter and warmer north, and the government has decreed that only treated softwood can be used for house framing. NZO can't be treated. So it can't be used (although there are exceptions, I won't bore you all with the fine print), and all those plantation investments are suddenly looking shaky.

   I've used it extensively around my house as a deck and rail timber, and it weathers to a really nice silver gray, and doesn't rot.

   Because it grows like a train here, growth rings can be very wide, and the colour quite light. I've got a piece acting as a door stop in my workshop that's about 14" by 24" by 6", and I swear there are only about a dozen growth rings across the end! 

   I haven't tried it as a furniture wood (I'm spoiled for choice with NZ natives) but I'd put it up beside macrocarpa and the nicer piney softwoods.

2. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 30, 2004 07:01pm | #12

   Mac, Douglas-fir regenerates fast, so it's a good choice for plantation operations. So does our redwood, but it's a little more site sensitive. Given the climate on your South Island, I suspect either of these species would grow like a weed for you folks. Unfortunately, when harvested on a fast rotation cycle, the immatue stock doesn't have the decay resistance of old-growth wood. Doug-fir's resin content gives it some decay resistance, but even old-growth D-f isn't in the same class as old growth redwood or our western redcedar in that respect. And western redcedar regenerates so slowly, it's a very poor candidate for plantation use.

   The sad reality is that the world is running out of naturally decay resistant species. We're learning to generate a lot of biomass in a hurry with species like radiata pine and albizzia (and of course your lyptus hybrid now in South America) but we really haven't solved the decay resistance issue yet. Even potentially very decay resistant species that also regenerate well, like redwood, don't develop their durability quickly. Also, immature stock with wide annual rings lacks the density and strength some of these species will eventually develop as they mature...not redwood; it remains a rather brittle wood, but Doug-fir with tight rings becomes very strong)...and this immature stock coming out of fast-rotation plantations also typically has very poor stability.

3. 
   scooter1 | Apr 30, 2004 07:36pm | #13

   Ditto on the splinters. Routing or Shaping it is very very tricky. I often have to take baby steps with the fence or depth of the cut to sneak up on the finished profile. Sometimes the last 32nd is run through the router backwards.Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

4. 
   Mackwood | Apr 29, 2004 10:17pm | #4

   DVILLARS,

   Yeah there is lots of Doug Fir used in the construction business.  A lot of it is categorized as "HEMFIR" which means you get a lot of hemlock in the mix. 

   "Nice" Doug. Fir was used for flooring and cabinets back in the early part of this century.  That was mainly clear, vertical grain which you will not find in today's  2 X 4's!

   I know a fellow that saws up salvaged DF logs.  He doesn't mess with anything less than about 4' in diam.  He is able to sell the finished lumber to an Italian furniture maker for $6.00 /bd. ft. and they take all he is willing to sell them.

   I have some of his wood and it's incredible!  Clear, vertical grain and the growth rings are so tight you can't count them accurately without a magnifier!  It is truly beautiful cabinet wood and not available just anywhere.

   I think that working with "softer" wood is a real test of craftmanship as the fibers tend to "crush and mush" if your tools and techniques are not extremely keen.

   I saw the piece to which you refer and I doubt very seriously that the maker got his material at Home Depot.

   Regards,

   Mack

   "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

5. 
   Telemike | Apr 30, 2004 07:19am | #9

   My family room and kitchen cabinets have doug fir face frames and doors and home cut veneer on some of the panels. The door panels are all vertical grain douglas fir plywood - if you confuse this stuff with HD fir plywood, don't worry - the price will set you straight.

   Whatever the chemistry of the patina, the presence of old doug fir is gorgeous! It colors from a pale orange tan to a darker oranger tan with darker orange brown grain. If you choose wood well, the grain is tight and orderly, but bold in its contrast. Out here in the Grand State of Confusion, you can get pretty good DF at HD if you are very picky.

   It certainly can splinter! Splinters are raised on edges with grain running out. Wear leather gloves to hand sand or sand with a block where your hands are near the surface. I've had a big splinter travel under the skin of my palm for 1 1/2 inches! Ouch.

   When splinters come up, stop sanding and lift the end of the splinter away from the wood. Use a toothpick to spread yellow glue under the splinter, then tape down with tight masking tape and go on to the next piece. That's my wisdom. Someday (when, if, I finish the kitchen) I'll post some pictures.

1. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 30, 2004 06:21pm | #11

   Mike, Douglas-fir splinters are really mean and you've got to be careful to avoid them. This wood contains a terpene that is a powerful irritant. They hurt like mad and heal very slowly.